Except Arab geographers applied the term Bilad Al Barbar to the entirety of the Somali coast lmao
Is The Adal Sultan Abu Bakr Ibn Muhammad A Somali Or A Harari
- Thread starter killerxsmoke
- Start date
Yeah because the Barbars were the ones that were trading on the coast. What were the boats that Ibn Batuta mentioned when they arrived in Maqdashi? Sambuq. You know what means in Geysinan? “Sam” + “Buq” is literally “quiet bamboo.” Ibn Batuta mentioned the Sambuq as a small boat.
What was the customs of the people of Maqdashi when a foreign merchant arrived? They would claim the foreign merchant as their guest and he could only buy/sell through him. do you know what the word for guest and merchant is? “Nugda” is guest, and “Nagaday” is merchant. It’s inextricably tied to one another the same way the customs of the people of Maqdashi was.
And Barbars were clearly Somali because all the trading cities across the coast were inhabited by Somalis.
Arab writers like Al-Idrus and Ibn Sa'id literally state that clans like the Hawiye lived in the coast between Ras Hafun and Merca as well as occupying the Shebelle basin. It couldn't be more painfully obvious that Somalis aka Barbars were living in these coastal towns.
Also
This is a Persian word. Any and all foreign elements in Mogadishu and the south would obviously come from Arabs and Persians as they were the largest minorities over there.
cant find muq but i did find something along the lines of "daci" with an arrow on the c meaning ground floor surface or land.
regardless, be it as it may. you'd have to explain why and how the hararis were relegated from the coasts of the somali regions to a small city in the far west(as with these etymology "connections" ur implying these cities were founded and lived in by hararis). Of course you'd have to provide signifcant proofs for these shifts
There is quite literally zero linguistic, genetic and archeological evidence of a Semitic speaking presence in the lowlands let alone southern Somalia back in antiquity (8th century BC-5th century AD). Aksumites were the only Semites we know of in the Horn and they mainly were Eritrean/Tigrayan. Ethiosemites would expand south late antiquity/early Middle Ages leading to the rise of the Solomonids and Shewa Islamic states but nothing before that indicates Semites anywhere near eastern Ethiopia and certainly not in southern Somalia lmao.
In regards to the city names, its silly to come to the conclusion that the ancient city states like Malao and Moslyon are of Harari origin. They are all just Hellenized versions of Somali names. Opone for example is the Greekified version of Hafun.
I’m surprised Leslau didn’t even put an easy word like Dashi into the dictionary. Here is Richard Burton’s dictionary from when he visited Harar. Find “earth” and it will be there.
The reason why Hararis fell off was because continuous wars with Amxaros, Oromo migrations and Adal state collapse led to no security to farmers. The thing with farmers is, they are stuck in place unlike pastoralists who are quick and agile. Farmers are sitting ducks when there is no government to defend them. The Oromos destroyed hundreds of villages and towns, to the point where Hararis lost complete control of the countryside. Amir Uthman negotiated a peace treaty with the Oromo to let us keep our main market towns, but Amir Uthman’s successor reneged on that deal and they destroyed every other city except Harar. Tragic collapse.
Barbar is more closely tied to Hararis because our literal greeting is tied to the word Bar.
The people who occupied the vast trading Coastal outposts followed the same calendar and seasonal movements as Somalis.Their cairns and burial are those of Somalis. Even Harar itself developed around an old nomadic/trading outpost.
The people who occupied the vast trading Coastal outposts followed the same calendar and seasonal movements as Somalis.Their cairns and burial are those of Somalis. Even Harar itself developed around an old nomadic/trading outpost.
Kingdom of Adal 100% somali ruled multi ethnic muslim empire in the horn of Africa. 100% Ahmed Gurey 100% Somali 100% Samarone. No need for history revisionism. Truth be told. Sooner or later we will found out the cold truth. History has tendency of repeating itself.
Mareexaan means the beautiful one.
The letter Q can be changed to the letter M .
for example : the Somali word ( qaraar قرار ) = the Arabic word ( maraar مرار ) both means bitter .
qurux means beautiful in Somali language .
qrx + aan → mrx + aan .
qurux → qurxaan .
marax → mareexaan .
قرح + ان ← مرح + ان
قرحان ← مرحان
The letter Q can be changed to the letter M .
for example : the Somali word ( qaraar قرار ) = the Arabic word ( maraar مرار ) both means bitter .
qurux means beautiful in Somali language .
qrx + aan → mrx + aan .
qurux → qurxaan .
marax → mareexaan .
قرح + ان ← مرح + ان
قرحان ← مرحان
@oogabooga Did you really just say that Barbar isn't Somali? 
You're giving us even the most convoluted meanings you can find in Geysinan and then attributing whatever it is to Harari!
You already failed to answer the many questions asked and beyond more convoluted etymologies, you haven't made a strong case at all. I was actually open to hearing the Harari view of their past but you've only attempted to erase Somalis and fail miserably at it.
The customs of welcoming foreign guests is the Somali Abban system it is well known. It seems you lack knowledge of Somali culture and customs.
Your proposed etymology for 'Ya Hu' btw is ridiculous- the religious etymology makes more sense.
Most of the Imam's army is Somali why would he use an Ethio-Semitic word that doesn't even make sense. Who charges into war saying at the top of their lungs 'Here you go!' - let's be serious please
You're giving us even the most convoluted meanings you can find in Geysinan and then attributing whatever it is to Harari!
You already failed to answer the many questions asked and beyond more convoluted etymologies, you haven't made a strong case at all. I was actually open to hearing the Harari view of their past but you've only attempted to erase Somalis and fail miserably at it.
The customs of welcoming foreign guests is the Somali Abban system it is well known. It seems you lack knowledge of Somali culture and customs.
Your proposed etymology for 'Ya Hu' btw is ridiculous- the religious etymology makes more sense.
Most of the Imam's army is Somali why would he use an Ethio-Semitic word that doesn't even make sense. Who charges into war saying at the top of their lungs 'Here you go!' - let's be serious please
The word Yaahuu exists in Somali. It said to someone who says something crazy or curses someone. I am not sure the context it was used in Futuh. I think Yaahuu might some ancient diety. Related to Yahweh?
yaahuu Erey laga horgeeyo qof habaartamay.
I know lakiin it isn't the most plausible meaning would someone say that as a war cry?
“ Yahu Yahu ياهو ياهو ” is the name of God in the Hebrew language .
The god's name was written in paleo-Hebrew as 𐤉𐤄𐤅𐤄 ( יהוה in block script), transliterated as YHWH; modern scholarship has reached consensus to transcribe this as "Yahweh". The shortened forms "Yeho-", "Yahu-" .
The name YHWH may be derived from a verb that means "to be", "to exist", "to cause to become", or "to come to pass".
The equivalent of this word ( YHWH יהוה يهوه ) is the Somali linguistic root ( ahaw ) : yahay, tahay ....
benjamin netanyahu is the prime minister of Israel .
Yahu means God .
netanyahu means " Yahu gave / God gave " .
in Somali language it would be " yaho nasiiyey " .
Wattam is an ancient linguistic linguistic phenomenon that transforms the letter “ s / sh ” into the letter “ T ” or vice versa.
Somali word " lasiin " = the Hebrew word " nataan " .
" نَتَان ياهو " تعني " عطاء ياهو " ، أو بمعنى آخر بمعنى آخر " عطاء الله "
The god's name was written in paleo-Hebrew as 𐤉𐤄𐤅𐤄 ( יהוה in block script), transliterated as YHWH; modern scholarship has reached consensus to transcribe this as "Yahweh". The shortened forms "Yeho-", "Yahu-" .
The name YHWH may be derived from a verb that means "to be", "to exist", "to cause to become", or "to come to pass".
The equivalent of this word ( YHWH יהוה يهوه ) is the Somali linguistic root ( ahaw ) : yahay, tahay ....
benjamin netanyahu is the prime minister of Israel .
Yahu means God .
netanyahu means " Yahu gave / God gave " .
in Somali language it would be " yaho nasiiyey " .
Wattam is an ancient linguistic linguistic phenomenon that transforms the letter “ s / sh ” into the letter “ T ” or vice versa.
Somali word " lasiin " = the Hebrew word " nataan " .
" نَتَان ياهو " تعني " عطاء ياهو " ، أو بمعنى آخر بمعنى آخر " عطاء الله "
@oogabooga the word dashi is found, just in a different manner you wrote it.
@daljirkadahsoon is this what you meant when you spoke of Imam Ahmed's trial by fire, is this what you meant?
I was more so expecting something along the lines of this (covered the faces due to tasweer)
An old fisherman is accused of deceiving the Treasury, which he denies and is sentenced to trial by fire to the bellowing of the crowd. A slave lights a fire and heats a piece of iron The condemned man, on his knees,tremblingly mutters his prayers..
Next to him is placed a tub of water for his ablutions. Two men stretch a rope about four metres long. The man will have to go back and forth twice, holding a hot piece of iron in his hands. His innocence will be proven if he escapes the terrible burns...
At the last moment, he is offered a compromise by confessing his guilt and giving the Sultan 200 silver coins and a slave. He refuses and persists in his denial. Then the furious crowd spreads out ,getting impatient about the outcome of the trial.The barrier is tightened...
The old man, with rare energy, after having invoked Allah for the last time, goes forward to undergo this atrocious ordeal. In the last second a man throws himself at the feet of Sultan and his uncle Nur,asking for mercy. The young Sultan remained expressionless....
quietly brushing his teeth with a piece of adday wood. Fortunately, Nur, less indifferent, showed mercy. With a gesture, he stopped the execution, accepting for his part a slave and a fine of 60 silver coins offered to him by the intercessor.
@daljirkadahsoon is this what you meant when you spoke of Imam Ahmed's trial by fire, is this what you meant?
I was more so expecting something along the lines of this (covered the faces due to tasweer)
An old fisherman is accused of deceiving the Treasury, which he denies and is sentenced to trial by fire to the bellowing of the crowd. A slave lights a fire and heats a piece of iron The condemned man, on his knees,tremblingly mutters his prayers..
Next to him is placed a tub of water for his ablutions. Two men stretch a rope about four metres long. The man will have to go back and forth twice, holding a hot piece of iron in his hands. His innocence will be proven if he escapes the terrible burns...
At the last moment, he is offered a compromise by confessing his guilt and giving the Sultan 200 silver coins and a slave. He refuses and persists in his denial. Then the furious crowd spreads out ,getting impatient about the outcome of the trial.The barrier is tightened...
The old man, with rare energy, after having invoked Allah for the last time, goes forward to undergo this atrocious ordeal. In the last second a man throws himself at the feet of Sultan and his uncle Nur,asking for mercy. The young Sultan remained expressionless....
quietly brushing his teeth with a piece of adday wood. Fortunately, Nur, less indifferent, showed mercy. With a gesture, he stopped the execution, accepting for his part a slave and a fine of 60 silver coins offered to him by the intercessor.
Yes only Somali and Canfar are recorded as doing it and we know the Imam is Somali not Canfar
No Ethiosemitic people do this
check the edited post where I added what I meant.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa all this hotepry in the east is getting to me. still havent recovered from canfar trying to claim zeila and other walled somali cities even tho they themselves to my knowledge never built walled cities
Three Moons
Give Dhul-Suwayqatayn not an inch of the Sea!
The passage is in relation to a river, the fact that this same river is still called Webiga Dir by Somalis makes it a clear open and shut case;
“The emir Muhammad Zaharbui had gone up with his Muslim army, to the land of Abyssinia, and [returning] joined forces with the imam on the road to the land of the Muslims. The imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, was coming down from Abyssinia; and they returned together. The imam and his army came to a place on the border of the land of the Muslims called Dir; it was a mighty river. Thereupon, the imam Ahmad pitched his camp by the river bank, and set aside the fifth of the booty, entrusting it to the care of a man…” (Futuh - P. 76)
Ah so now we have two Girris, like the two Ahmeds that are supposedly both Left-Handed, let me guess your next argument is that both Girris were conflated into one by the Somalis?
Come on man.
what references?
Any historical reference to ancient and medieval Somalia, take your pick, its a vast and diverse collection of references all coming to the same conclusion.
“The first person who reported the name of Sūmāl ( Somalia ) may have been Ibn Mājid. In his book he stated that Barr Sūmāl ( the land of Sūmāl ) was an area between al- Barabira ( Berbera ) and Barawa ( Brava )”
And;
“…according to Sulayman al-Mahri , Barr al-Sumal corresponds to the so-called Horn of Africa extending from Berbera to Ras Ḥāfūni, Mogadishu, and Brava by way of Cape Guardafui." - (Page 350; Essays in Northeast African studies)
Therefore, we have clear medieval references that used Bilad-al Barbar and Barr al-Sumal interchangeably as one and the same, and which covered the entire Somali peninsula. We have no such historic literary evidence of Bilad al-Barbar being used alongside terms like Bilad al-Harla, Barr al-Harari, or Barr al-Oromo, or any other ethnic or occupation derived sobriquet.
If indeed an alternative population had lived there, this would have been the case, but it wasn’t and mind you these historic geographic references were made long before the Conquest of Abyssinia or the Oromo migrations, so good luck trying to explain how an entire geographic region was called al-Sumal if the latter weren’t already the most dominant group in the area.
This is absurd, because you are mistranslating Hellenic adaptations of local names, for example the Hellenic name for Hafun or Afun was Opone, or Opun, and Hafun is not a Harari root word.
I get why you are doing this though, because any person that seeks to exclude the Somali people from their ancestral heritage would have to go back long before the arrival of Islam because there is a clear overlapping continuum between the ancient and the medieval, and the modern.
Your not the first group to attempt this, but it’s a futile exercise.
“After this, one of the foremost sultans called Ura'i Abun came to the imam. When the country had been torn by disputes, he had gone to live with the Somalis. He became reconciled with the imam and the latter gave him a district for his support. A tribe called Gim then came to the imam. A dispute had arisen between them and their companions in another tribe called the Marraihan whose emir was called Hirabu, so the imam Ahmad sent a message to Hirabu, emir of the Somalis, to make peace between them.” (Futuh - P. 22)
And;
“The storyteller, may God have mercy upon him, says: Thereupon the imam disbanded his soldiers, saying to them, 'Each of you return to your town, feed your horses well, keep your weapons in readiness until I come to you, and you set out [again] on a raid. For the moment I am going to a district called Zarba to pacify the country, to make peace between the citizens and the Somalis, and to mobilise an army: and then I will come back to you.'They agreed with what he had to say, broke up. and each person went back to his own town.”
“Those of the emirs who stayed behind in the country, stayed close by the sultan, while the imam Ahmad, may the Most High God have mercy upon him, went down to Zarba with thirty horsemen. The Sultan 'Umar Din, meanwhile, consulted with the emirs of the country concerning the matter of the alms-tax: among them were the wazir Nur, and Garad Ahmusa, Qatin Abu Bakr, Ura'i Abun bin 'Utman, Jasa 'Umar, brother of the sultan 'Umar Din, Garad Ahmad bin Lad 'Utman.” (Futuh - P. 77)
Notice how the above passage makes a distinction between ‘citizens’ and ‘Somalis despite both elements living in Zarba in the country of the Harla? This only supports Shimbiris’ thread that at times the name Somali denoted an occupational habit rather than a all-encompassing ethnic sobriquet. This is even more clear when the author also shows that Zarba included agricultural elements, as you can see from the same passage;
“Abu Bakr reached the Imam Ahmad who was in Zarba, sitting and giving commands to agricultural workers, 'Do this and do that'. He knew nothing [of this matter] and had heard no news. Then the Qur'anic teacher Abu Bakr handed over their letter, and he read it and understood its contents. The imam then said to the Qur'anic teacher Abu Bakr. 'Return to them and tell them that what they want is vile, but let them do what they desire. I shall leave the country to them.”
What is more interesting (and I will have to re-read the Futuh to do a closer inspection) is whether the author, who regularly jumped between timelines, was referring to the dispute between the tribe of Gim and the tribe of Marehan when he settled down in the district of Zarba. Its extremely likely that he is referring to the same incident that resulted in a amicable conclusion.
Also, in every empire, agricultural groups were a major static source of tax, so in this case the agriculturalists Imam Ahmed was commanding in their farming duties would clearly be the citizens referenced above. In all these examples you have clear prominent Somalis in Imam Ahmed’s core group, the Sultan’s core group, they have a major presence alongside the agriculturalists, the urbanites, are found on the coast, amongst the scholars, the traders, make up the bulk of the army, etc.
What you guys are doing is tantamount to claiming Alexander the Great and the Macedonian Empire wasn’t Greek, because there was also the Greek country of city-states to the south of their realm.
Three Moons
Give Dhul-Suwayqatayn not an inch of the Sea!
You shouldn’t entertain Ethiopianist theories on Adal’s post-Conquest of Abyssinia years. It was still a major state well into the 17th century. The Roman Empire broke into two parts for centuries and was still considered one realm until the Germanics permanently sacked Rome.
The title of that chapter is literally ‘The Somali Tribes reach Harar” and they ranked the Zarba alongside other Somali tribes, there is no way of misinterpreting such a clear historic reference. Also, since you are talking about the Harla, here you have one of Imam Ahmed’s greatest commanders, Hussain al-Gaturi, again ranking the Harla as one of the Somali tribes;
“Thereupon the emir Husain bin Abu Bakr al-Gaturi arose and said to the Imam Ahmad ‘This will never happen. If they want war, then we will assemble our armies from the people of Sim and from the Somali tribes: the tribe of Girri, the tribe of Habr Maqdi, the tribe of Harla, for our armies have been dispersed. How can we do as they wish? We shall not surrender the country to them.” (Futuh - P. 104)
Its amusing to see you try to deflect these ‘historic bullets’ like an agent in the Matrix movies, but there is no doubt in my mind if these passages wrote that the Harla, the Zarba, and the Gedäya ranked alongside names like the ‘Harari’ or the ‘Oromo’ or the ‘Afar’ it would have been a done deal.
There are many prominent Somali clans mentioned in the Futuh that no longer exist. Throughout the Futuh you also have individuals that were clearly Somali in the modern sense, but who weren’t part of the ‘Somali division’ but were instead part of the other divisions of the army.
Even when you take a special force of Adalite knights called the Malassay, in the Futuh their name means “The Sea”, which fits in nicely with a Somali root word like “Malaay” or “Malaayga” which today means Fish, but at times is also used along side another Somali word for fish like Kaluun, where its written as Kaluunka Malaay = ‘Fish from the Sea”, which reveals its earlier etymological meaning.
“The last division was made up of men of strength and valour who were nicknamed 'The Sea’, because of the number of their swords. Their commander was the imam Ahmad himself.” (Futuh - P.125)
Not really because we also have the Yibbir, the Madhiban, and the Madinle, all whom were historically known for their occupational habits as artisans and builders. Its pretty obvious that if the name Bimal or Tumal had become victorious as the main sobriquet of a people that lived from the Indian Ocean to the Red Sea instead of Sumal, today individuals such as yourself would be denying that the Bimals or Tumals were related to the Sumals of the Futuh.
Highly unlikely that it was ‘Here you go’, as throughout the Futuh, the war cries invoke Allah (SWT) directly;
“As the infidels drew nearer to the Muslims there was a cloud above them that shaded them; while the Muslims were exposed to the full heat of the sun. The imam Ahmad immediately humbled himself, and prayed. In his prayer he said, 'O God, O Living One, O Eternal One, O Creator of the heavens and the earth, O Glorious and Gracious One, these arc your enemies, they are the enemies of your Prophet, "" and of your Messengers; they eat the nourishment you give them, but they adore something other than You. Yet you give them shade." and we Muslims are in the full heat of the sun." (Futuh - P. 79)
When you go back a single page before the war cry “Yahu, Yahu” is used the author even quotes an anonymous poet, which supports my earlier assertion that he is employing a poetic device in his writing;
“The day after this, the infidels set out for their own country with the imam and his army on their heels. These had harnessed their horses and mounted them, after donning their armour and taking their weapons just as the poet says: 'How beautiful before the breaking of dawn is the voice of the herald. Come on the jihad to the races of men of noble rank who give their lives so highmindedly in order to please the magnanimous One’. On horseback, they are like lions.” (Futuh - P. 23)
Last edited:
Bro you are pushing it with the Dir stuff. It’s really straightforward but you want to avoid it. Dir most likely has a Harari etymological origin as is evident from the mention of Webiga Dir in Futuh. Dir in both cases is a geographical term, and this can even be the case with Dire Dawa (but I’m not gonna start another tangent). Point is, it’s just the most likely. It doesn’t mean that Dir were Harari, because names can be adopted.
Linguistics is a key factor in understanding the people of the past. The Harari language is very helpful in understanding the past dynamic. Even a small boat used in Maldives called “doni” is the same in Geysinan, and “doni” is also a color in Geysinan. You know that all these very logical definitions and etymologies are not a coincidence. One or two, I could understand why you’d think that. But these are plentiful.
. It’s literally saying citizens and Somalis. That means Somalis were not native/citizens. The Harla aren’t mentioned explicitly because it is taken as an obvious fact that they are the citizens.
If you want to continue with this nonsense theory, better start providing down Somali agricultural history. If not, then this is an infutile argument.
Why did Arab Faqih need to add “Gedaya” before the Girri, whilst in other places he just mentions Girri alongside Somali names?Ah so now we have two Girris, like the two Ahmeds that are supposedly both Left-Handed, let me guess your next argument is that both Girris were conflated into one by the Somalis?
Come on man.
lol the burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim.
both those men are from the 15th century. Hararis called Somalis “Simur” before that. Everything before referred to the region as Bilad al-Barbar. If Hararis were able to name the Somalis “Simur” early on, what does that say about the origins of the Harari?
Barbar literally means “the one that is blessed” in the Harari language. It relates to our greeting “Barakh.”
Hafun literally is a derivative of the Harari word “hafasa,” which means to scoop up. Hafun means “in bulk.” I couldn’t find the derivative in the dictionary but we would be told growing up, “hafunzo ginna.” That means throw all of it out.
Linguistics is a key factor in understanding the people of the past. The Harari language is very helpful in understanding the past dynamic. Even a small boat used in Maldives called “doni” is the same in Geysinan, and “doni” is also a color in Geysinan. You know that all these very logical definitions and etymologies are not a coincidence. One or two, I could understand why you’d think that. But these are plentiful.
This refers to the Sultan, read it again. A Sultan came to the Imam, and it discusses his background.
Bro read it
. It’s literally saying citizens and Somalis. That means Somalis were not native/citizens. The Harla aren’t mentioned explicitly because it is taken as an obvious fact that they are the citizens.Again, this just shows that the citizens of the Adal Sultanate were Harla agriculturalists. Do you not ask why Harla are not mentioned explicitly like the Somali? Why is it not “citizens” and “Harla?” Come on man, use your brain. It’s not complicated. Arab Faqih explicitly mentioned Somali tribes and Harla tribes. Harla are not mentioned with a foreigner aspect unlike “citizens and Somalis.” All the Somali tribes mentioned in the Futuh are also today pastoralists. No evidence of farming culture and knowledge. Yet you want to tell me Harla are just Somali farmers? This is a sped argument at this point. Somalis had their own land called the Land of Somali where they had their own settlements and rivers.
If you want to continue with this nonsense theory, better start providing down Somali agricultural history. If not, then this is an infutile argument.
