Is Modern Judaism a form of White Supremacy?

[sh-89]

Once you started spewing the ignorance, claiming Egyptians and Jordanians are the same people as Palestinians, is when you lost the plot, perpetuating Zionist talking points, and still try to present yourself as a reasonable actor in this conversation with this two-stepping, shifty act. You know they are different, but then say, "Why can't they go there, they're all Arabs and the same (or similar enough), after all?" No rational person has time for that dishonest peddling, favoring the Israeli Zionist genocidal language that only seeks to strengthen the Israeli expansion. I don't have anything more to say to you. I already stated Jordan absorbs so many Palestinians that they are half of the population, and you still double down. But that is not their native land, nor is Egypt, an even more distinct area. I don't have time for this nonsense, and end it here.

I cant have a serious conversation with you if you become emotional. You think me saying they are the same people have anything to do with Israel. You have a derangement syndrome. Remove Israel from the picture entirely for a second and pretend they dont exist and go back to the topic. You are getting emotional and unable to talk about it objectively. Perhaps you are Arab or have family there. My apologies if I came across rude or insensitive. But in this forum we can discuss Somali topics, tribes, wars where I know many people directly related to me that died in without losing my shit. Hell I know people related to ne directly who died in Yemen and some who live there now. I have family in Ethiopia as well. My uncle was butchered during Black Hawk Down and I can engage in that conversation without losing my shit and getting upset.

I am discussing how they are the same people without it having anything to do with that being used to undermine Palestinians have a state. Its two separate conversations. And assuming I am some zionist is literally insane. Be serious.

Somalia people live in northern Kenya and in Ethiopia Galbeed. Would it be wrong for me so say they are thr same ethnically to us? It is a known fact that the people who lived in Palestine prior to any creation of Israel are the same ethnically to Jordan. This is not even up for debate. This is like saying Pakistani and Indians never shared a land. Insane.

Jordan has different tribes of people but they share Arabic language, history etc. There are some genetic differences. Chances are they are a mix of the many different groups that always lived in the area. The reason thr term indigenious is confusing is because these regions have colonized many times. This isnt the Americas. Similarly, who is indigenious in Somalia? A place that has many tribes, nomads and different empires? Americas was unusual because they were isolated from the world before waves of people started going there.

If you cannot discuss this without being emotional than do not reply as I do not want to upset you further. I would prefer we discuss this without venturing into the conflict/genocide/war of the times we are in. Or any land claims as I have said I have no skin in the gane who owns that land.

 

[The alchemist]

I cant have a serious conversation with you if you become emotional. You think me saying they are the same people have anything to do with Israel. You have a derangement syndrome. Remove Israel from the picture entirely for a second and pretend they dont exist and go back to the topic. You are getting emotional and unable to talk about it objectively. Perhaps you are Arab or have family there. My apologies if I came across rude or insensitive. But in this forum we can discuss Somali topics, tribes, wars where I know many people directly related to me that died in without losing my shit. Hell I know people related to ne directly who died in Yemen and some who live there now. I have family in Ethiopia as well. My uncle was butchered during Black Hawk Down and I can engage in that conversation without losing my shit and getting upset.

I am discussing how they are the same people without it having anything to do with that being used to undermine Palestinians have a state. Its two separate conversations. And assuming I am some zionist is literally insane. Be serious.

Somalia people live in northern Kenya and in Ethiopia Galbeed. Would it be wrong for me so say they are thr same ethnically to us? It is a known fact that the people who lived in Palestine prior to any creation of Israel are the same ethnically to Jordan. This is not even up for debate. This is like saying Pakistani and Indians never shared a land. Insane.

Jordan has different tribes of people but they share Arabic language, history etc. There are some genetic differences. Chances are they are a mix of the many different groups that always lived in the area. The reason thr term indigenious is confusing is because these regions have colonized many times. This isnt the Americas. Similarly, who is indigenious in Somalia? A place that has many tribes, nomads and different empires? Americas was unusual because they were isolated from the world before waves of people started going there.

If you cannot discuss this without being emotional than do not reply as I do not want to upset you further. I would prefer we discuss this without venturing into the conflict/genocide/war of the times we are in. Or any land claims as I have said I have no skin in the gane who owns that land.

I re-read the text, and it seems I misread or, maybe even skipped a whole sentence, or was lazy and jumped the gun. I'm sorry, man. We're not even speaking on the same thing on the Levantine factor.

However, in that response itself, you're wrong. Palestinians are effectively occupied. Israel controls everything basically; there is no actual true state to speak of, only an apartheid-run region by Israel. The West Bank is a logistical clusterfuck and Gaza is an open air prison. Jordan sold out to the West while trying to have an informal benevolence towards Palestinians, while in reality they just let NATO have a base there which we all know what means; a symbolic representation of their compromise. Jordanians are a good people but they really are not doing things right, despite they should get credit for taking a population that is perhaps over half their overall size.

However, the other text, you're all over the place that requires a more in-depth response, which I don't have the time for right now. All I said is true, though, in its right context. Have a nice day.

 

[sh-89]

I re-read the text, and it seems I misread or, maybe even skipped a whole sentence, or was lazy and jumped the gun. I'm sorry, man. We're not even speaking on the same thing on the Levantine factor.

However, in that response itself, you're wrong. Palestinians are effectively occupied. Israel controls everything basically; there is no actual true state to speak of, only an apartheid-run region by Israel. The West Bank is a logistical clusterfuck and Gaza is an open air prison. Jordan sold out to the West while trying to have an informal benevolence towards Palestinians, while in reality they just let NATO have a base there which we all know what means; a symbolic representation of their compromise. Jordanians are a good people but they really are not doing things right, despite they should get credit for taking a population that is perhaps over half their overall size.

However, the other text, you're all over the place that requires a more in-depth response, which I don't have the time for right now. All I said is true, though, in its right context. Have a nice day.

You too take care. You made some great points I agree with. Again when it comes to this region and discussing their ethnicity, people think that if you say they are same people, it is suspicious since it is a Zionist talking points. I am not using it in that or weaponizing it in that way.

Jordan has bad history of Palestinians with them trying to take over. That is not a reason to hate them but its a problem. These Arab nations fear the Arab spring and being overthrown its all about survival but Israel/America are humiliating them since they look passive and supportive. Imo they are all trying to survive in that area (tough place to have. Nation). East Europe, Mena and East Africa are tough neighborhood to live in.

Imo Israel would have had a better time if they lived in Malta, Luxemberg etc areas Piers said this to Netyanhu and even there Muslims are eyeing those lands since they ruled them too:


I think when Arabs gain power again in high levels possibly with China, I dont see a long term future for Jews that are zionist. The Orthodox Jews will be happy too.

Either way they are not a group to be messed with and Israel knows. One wrong step they can be out. Its the M.E where empires go to die. The Asian countries humble the west economically but when it comes to battle, hands down Muslims have power. They just need better technology. We will see how long Israel lasts because living around your enemies is not fun. Without the air defense America helps them with financing, they would be gone. So I do think Palestine will win in the long term. And like you said if they integrate it will still be the end for them.

I don't think they would last in Somalia either. I dont think they would get far because Somalis are even more insular. Palestinians have been miskeen. Imagine Iraqis? Turks? Israel wouldn't be able to have a presence in their lands at all.

Take care.

 

[Daisybilaawe]

You too take care. You made some great points I agree with. Again when it comes to this region and discussing their ethnicity, people think that if you say they are same people, it is suspicious since it is a Zionist talking points. I am not using it in that or weaponizing it in that way.

Jordan has bad history of Palestinians with them trying to take over. That is not a reason to hate them but its a problem. These Arab nations fear the Arab spring and being overthrown its all about survival but Israel/America are humiliating them since they look passive and supportive. Imo they are all trying to survive in that area (tough place to have. Nation). East Europe, Mena and East Africa are tough neighborhood to live in.

Imo Israel would have had a better time if they lived in Malta, Luxemberg etc areas Piers said this to Netyanhu and even there Muslims are eyeing those lands since they ruled them too:


I think when Arabs gain power again in high levels possibly with China, I dont see a long term future for Jews that are zionist. The Orthodox Jews will be happy too.

Either way they are not a group to be messed with and Israel knows. One wrong step they can be out. Its the M.E where empires go to die. The Asian countries humble the west economically but when it comes to battle, hands down Muslims have power. They just need better technology. We will see how long Israel lasts because living around your enemies is not fun. Without the air defense America helps them with financing, they would be gone. So I do think Palestine will win in the long term. And like you said if they integrate it will still be the end for them.

I don't think they would last in Somalia either. I dont think they would get far because Somalis are even more insular. Palestinians have been miskeen. Imagine Iraqis? Turks? Israel wouldn't be able to have a presence in their lands at all.

Take care.

So then what happens after? Inevitably they'll lose and the ones they've oppressed will regain their land but what will ultimately happen do North America and Western Europe return back to the control of Anglo people?

 

[sh-89]

So then what happens after? Inevitably they'll lose and the ones they've oppressed will regain their land but what will ultimately happen do North America and Western Europe return back to the control of Anglo people?

I don't understand what you mean? You mean what will happen to Jews? If Israel continues on it will become a pariah state.

When was these areas not under Anglo control? I don't understand?

 

[Daisybilaawe]

I don't understand what you mean? You mean what will happen to Jews? If Israel continues on it will become a pariah state.

When was these areas not under Anglo control? I don't understand?

Like I mean when Palestinians eventually get their land back in the long term what will happen to the jews and also North America/Western Europe?

 

[reer]

Like I mean when Palestinians eventually get their land back in the long term what will happen to the jews and also North America/Western Europe?

guess.

 

[sh-89]

Like I mean when Palestinians eventually get their land back in the long term what will happen to the jews and also North America/Western Europe?

Their leaving. A lot already left. They ill go back to Eastern Europe or America. Tbh America is the best for Jewish people maybe Canada 2nd. The M.E is going through a lot conflict only a matter of time before it went into Israel etc. It unstable. Forget Israel which is small country, India is surrounded and might fall go into war with Islamic groups next. Bengaladesh fell and the leader was ousted (a woman), Pakistan is failing. Pakistan is trying to deport as many Afghanis and feel pressure too. Their nation can become like how Somalia was (rogue/pariah). Except Somalia has sympathy due to it being poor. Pakistan has wealth and nukes/strong army. So there won't be any mercy for them because many people suspect they work with the islamists. Remember 9/11? A lot of them had ties to Pakistan who many suspected were hiding the top Al-Qaeda leaders like Osama etc. He was in and out of Pakistan.

They might just create the 1 state solution or risk becoming a pariah. And tbh a lot of Jews abroad hate how Israel makes them look and puts them all in danger. Most people dont know a lot of the M.E countries are working with them. They are fed up with these groups. Look at the Iranian people cheering on Israel. Can you imagine the amount have hate you have to have to cheer your own people being bombed. And tbh I dont even blame them. That regime is barbaric and uses too much fear to control but the Ayatollahs are very wealthy and more wealthier powerful than the Shah etc. Atleast based on the books. Who knows?

 

[icecreamburger]

I thought white supremacists hate jews

 

[Taintedlove]

Western Jews are not cadaans from Eastern Europe:





The ones you see in the West who just look cadaan and a tiny such minority in Israel are basically recent American or UK mixes. True AJs and SJs are pretty much a Mediterranean people.

These guys and the Roma (Gypsies) were fucked with by cadaans as much as they were historically precisely because the cadaans could tell them apart from the general population. Look at Gal Gadot and Mila Kunis. You can pick that out from your average Pole or German in a millisecond.

Mind you, none of this makes their occupation of Palestine okay. Just because you technically used to originally be from there (at least about half of their ancestry) doesn't mean you get to come back and displace the people who live there now and create an ethno-state that basically runs on an apartheid-like system. Israel is a shit-show and you won't hear me ever defend it or Zionists but these are not "white" people.

They can definitely pass as white if they tried, but I agree, they’re not white.

 

[Shimbiris]

@The alchemist

Haye, walaalkiis. I’ll keep it brief as I want to focus on my post and other things, but I said I’d follow up quickly. I know it might seem like I’m shifting the goalposts from the original debate about how much “Jewish” or “Levantine” ancestry Ashkenazi Jews have and I'll even cop to that and just say that I find your methods—and those of the guy who first proposed the Aegean theory—quite compelling; I see the logic behind the 30–40% estimate. But at the end of the day, I don’t think we can ever fully know how much of that ancestry is truly Jewish-Levantine.

It could be as low as 20%, because Greeks and Italians—who also carry Levantine-related ancestry—mixed with these people. There’s no precise way to untangle it, especially since the time frames involved aren’t very large in the scale of human history. Even if we try time-dating methods, both Ashkenazim and southern Europeans have significant Iran_ChL-type ancestry from the last couple of millennia. It’s all very murky; I leave that to someone Jewish who cares enough or a committed foreign anthro enthusiast like yourself who has the time and energy to deep dive into as any angles as possible, including even haplogroupd.

My main point, though, is this: Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly a genetically Middle Eastern population. This is clear:

The full plot​

They plot as more “southern” than Chechens, Lezgins, Kabardians, and other such North Caucasians. Khabib is more "European" genetically than Ashkenazis. They're on par with Turks and Ossetians and the northernmost Ashkenazi is as north as the MIDDLE of the Adygei cluster. Would you ever or anyone ever, with a straight face, argue that Adygeis are mostly “Western” or “Cadaan”?

And Sephardic Jews, along with their North African cousins, plot even more southern; on par with Azeris. The bulk of Western Jewry's ancestry is MENA; that much is undeniable. Whether or not a high percentage comes directly from ancient southern Levantine Jews is a different issue. Still, the main point I made in the original thread stands: people who cluster like this would have physically stood out among Germans, Brits, Poles, and the like.

Combine that with the Middle Eastern customs they preserved and their Jewish faith—however transformed over time—and it’s no surprise they were treated as outsiders. And yes, it’s absurd how people online pretend they’re just German or Polish transplants with no link to the Middle East, as if they were genetically like English colonists.

1. Most of their Y-DNA is Middle Eastern (and Jewish);
2. Most of their mtDNA is Middle Eastern;
3. Most of their autosomal profile is Middle Eastern.

The only mud you can throw is that, yes, they are culturally highly Western. You’re right about that bastard Herzl and his colonialist attitude toward Arabs. And yes, their truly Jewish-Levantine ancestry may not be as high as the three genetic points suggest—but still, it’s false to paint them as “white” colonizers. That’s not what’s happening. They're colonizers, sure—but them and the Roma were literally the first victims of cadaan racism and they basically wanted to leave Europe because it basically hit them that they'll never be accepted as "white".

But yeah, I think that's the last I'll say about this subject and it was good exchanging with you, walaal. That Turkish Jews exercise was extremely interesting and I'll give it a crack myself someday when all the Horner stuff has dried up and calmed down. Inshallah.

 

[The alchemist]

@The alchemist

Haye, walaalkiis. I’ll keep it brief as I want to focus on my post and other things, but I said I’d follow up quickly. I know it might seem like I’m shifting the goalposts from the original debate about how much “Jewish” or “Levantine” ancestry Ashkenazi Jews have and I'll even cop to that and just say that I find your methods—and those of the guy who first proposed the Aegean theory—quite compelling; I see the logic behind the 30–40% estimate. But at the end of the day, I don’t think we can ever fully know how much of that ancestry is truly Jewish-Levantine.

It could be as low as 20%, because Greeks and Italians—who also carry Levantine-related ancestry—mixed with these people. There’s no precise way to untangle it, especially since the time frames involved aren’t very large in the scale of human history. Even if we try time-dating methods, both Ashkenazim and southern Europeans have significant Iran_ChL-type ancestry from the last couple of millennia. It’s all very murky; I leave that to someone Jewish who cares enough or a committed foreign anthro enthusiast like yourself who has the time and energy to deep dive into as any angles as possible, including even haplogroupd.

My main point, though, is this: Ashkenazi Jews are overwhelmingly a genetically Middle Eastern population. This is clear:

The full plot​

They plot as more “southern” than Chechens, Lezgins, Kabardians, and other such North Caucasians. Khabib is more "European" genetically than Ashkenazis. They're on par with Turks and Ossetians and the northernmost Ashkenazi is as north as the MIDDLE of the Adygei cluster. Would you ever or anyone ever, with a straight face, argue that Adygeis are mostly “Western” or “Cadaan”?

And Sephardic Jews, along with their North African cousins, plot even more southern; on par with Azeris. The bulk of Western Jewry's ancestry is MENA; that much is undeniable. Whether or not a high percentage comes directly from ancient southern Levantine Jews is a different issue. Still, the main point I made in the original thread stands: people who cluster like this would have physically stood out among Germans, Brits, Poles, and the like.

Combine that with the Middle Eastern customs they preserved and their Jewish faith—however transformed over time—and it’s no surprise they were treated as outsiders. And yes, it’s absurd how people online pretend they’re just German or Polish transplants with no link to the Middle East, as if they were genetically like English colonists.

1. Most of their Y-DNA is Middle Eastern (and Jewish);
2. Most of their mtDNA is Middle Eastern;
3. Most of their autosomal profile is Middle Eastern.

The only mud you can throw is that, yes, they are culturally highly Western. You’re right about that bastard Herzl and his colonialist attitude toward Arabs. And yes, their truly Jewish-Levantine ancestry may not be as high as the three genetic points suggest—but still, it’s false to paint them as “white” colonizers. That’s not what’s happening. They're colonizers, sure—but them and the Roma were literally the first victims of cadaan racism and they basically wanted to leave Europe because it basically hit them that they'll never be accepted as "white".

But yeah, I think that's the last I'll say about this subject and it was good exchanging with you, walaal. That Turkish Jews exercise was extremely interesting and I'll give it a crack myself someday when all the Horner stuff has dried up and calmed down. Inshallah.

What I meant earlier is that I stated when I mentioned the MENA in Jews, I limit it to the ancestry that definitely was limited to the Levantine entierly. The rest is a mixture of ancestry they received in the Greco-Roman world that was a mixture of very heavy MENA indeed and European. When I say European side. I meant the European side of the Eastern Mediterranean which includes the Greco-roman zone, since Syrieans and Lebanese are Eastern Mediterranean and they are not the variation i refer to. The current profile of Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews (ones that did not receive additional MENA) had a genesis in the European Eastern Mediterranean. Not in the Levant. That is why they differ from a Lebanese.

When I talk in genetics about Jewish frequency, which can indeed be much lower than 35% (but keep it charitable, as I doubt they lived in the Levant withuot mixing, but that is probably an Iron Age cut-off), I don't refer to culture or identity. They kept continuity with heavy relgus change over time. I never said they are only 35% Jewish. That is not how identity works. That is why I say the Habash are not Cushiitc group now, despite that being the majority of their ancestry. Their identity and civilization went along a Semitic route. The Agaws on the other hand, barely no difference autosomally but they held their identity through the Cushitic line. very different peoples despite you can almost superimpose their autosomal genetics.

In terms of them being white colonizers. You're dead wrong. These people were entirely Western by the time they came and attached themselves to that. The people who came literally were zionist westernized Jews. They used the same imperialist fronts as the cadaans because those were the people they saw themselves with. These guys have been living in mainland Europe for over 1000 years, like what are we talking about? Their being a sub-section that has had unique conditions and has a different religion does not suddenly make them a Levantine Island in Europe. These people when they came to Palestine looked at the natives as brown orientals and themselves as superior westerners. Plenty of scholarship supports this. They brought the entire cadaan machine with them and identified with it completely while having their own nationalism.

As I stated earlier, what is considered white is very subjective, and an Ashkenazi Jew definitely is white in modern standards. They are entirely Western. In any society, they fit in and only mingle with the white elite class. Their Zionist ideology was built on the cadaan imperialist apparatus. There is a good reason in South Africa, they were with the white section. These people saw the Palestinians as very distinct from them and really wanted to wash away the land of that character and instill their Europeaness to it, which they did and signal constantly to Westerners, constantly. The actual brown Jews had to change when they came because the Ashkenazi signalled they had to Westernize themselves in values (appear less Araby); mirror the White man, which the Ashkenazi did, completely. Just because I call Ashkenazis akin to white colonizers does not negate them being jews. But they were indeed white colonizers.

I know its difficult to reconcile how they can be white when they were barely accepted as the same as the cadaans, but remember this, just because Europeans saw them as distinct, they were seen as a parallel group in Europe, not like how black man was. Hitler, although that guy hated Jews, he saw them as very similar yet very distinct. Irrespective of that dilemma, Ashkenazi Jews were a sub-sect of a European body when they came on the land in every condition. Even the Zionist ideology was very much sourced from European thinking and secular individuals constructed this. It was only later re-framed as a religious notion when it was not, although they effectively peddle the non-religious aspect overwhelmingly.

And also you seem to have forgotten the example I gave. Intermediate groups are often seen as white if they are white in behavior and thinking. A Cypriot Greek is white in America, a TURK from Cyprus is kind of not.

We can remove the whiteness if you want because that is the least of importance here. I don't care about that term because it becomes an insignificant placeholder when reality definitely supports what I say. Ashkenazi Jews are entirely Western and they came as westerners to that land, viewed the natives like the cadaans did, had the same colonial mindset, and applied and worked with the same imperialist machine as insiders. That is why they were and still are favored by the cadaans, because the "they are like us" is a powerful tool they use (they are not like the brown savages that don't value life with wine). Jews from Germany were very German. The ones from Hungary, very Hungarian and etc. The early Zionist brute-forced (this is very covered by scholarship) a whole national identity to narrow differences with these diverse peoples and it was a Western Jewishood. The Russian Jews who are sort of the latest are very unique and stick out because they are still very tied to Russia and are Russian in their ways, despite being Israelis.

Noam Chomsky is not a brown man. He is a western scholar. Edward Said was Palestinians Christian, although very Western too, was not seen as a Western man. Albert Einstain was Jewish, but was of a German cultural and social background.

It's not about throwing mud. I speak about this from an objective perspective. These guys are Western people who came to a land, brought those imperialist mechanisms to colonize in a settler fashion. Albert Einstein was German who was a Jew. And this topic is very different from the one I was talking about in regards to genetics.

 

[Shimbiris]

----

I feel like we’re fixated on totally different things. My main contention is their genetics and their resulting phenotype which is indeed pretty much MENA.

What I in turn mainly take issue with online is when people—not you but people in general—behave like they have absolutely no connection to the land and are basically Polish or German converts who went crazy and just decided based on biblical stuff that they should go to the Middle East. This is ridiculous and untrue and I’m sure you would agree.

As I stated earlier, what is considered white is very subjective, and an Ashkenazi Jew definitely is white in modern standards. They are entirely Western. In any society, they fit in and only mingle with the white elite class. Their Zionist ideology was built on the cadaan imperialist apparatus. There is a good reason in South Africa, they were with the white section. These people saw the Palestinians as very distinct from them and really wanted to wash away the land of that character and instill their Europeaness to it, which they did and signal constantly to Westerners, constantly. The actual brown Jews had to change when they came because the Ashkenazi signalled they had to Westernize themselves in values (appear less Araby); mirror the White man, which the Ashkenazi did, completely. Just because I call Ashkenazis akin to white colonizers does not negate them being jews. But they were indeed white colonizers.

I know its difficult to reconcile how they can be white when they were barely accepted as the same as the cadaans, but remember this, just because Europeans saw them as distinct, they were seen as a parallel group in Europe, not like how black man was. Hitler, although that guy hated Jews, he saw them as very similar yet very distinct. Irrespective of that dilemma, Ashkenazi Jews were a sub-sect of a European body when they came on the land in every condition. Even the Zionist ideology was very much sourced from European thinking and secular individuals constructed this. It was only later re-framed as a religious notion when it was not, although they effectively peddle the non-religious aspect overwhelmingly.

You are moving around too much, walaal. I never even addressed the anglosphere in my original post in this thread and, frankly, the anglosphere is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Western Jewry was never that significant in the anglo world before the 19th century. The Anglosphere is unique and weird as well, as you yourself have described, when it comes to what constitutes "white". Greeks, Italians, and even the Irish and Polish were once not considered "white" yet are now. And also, Arabs like Syrians and Lebanese were frequently counted as "white" in early America around when the Italians and Greeks were also being accepted. These anglo labels are genuinely socially constructed muddy stuff so I don't think it matters what anyone considers "white" in places like the Anglosphere (America, Ozz, NZ, UK, and once South Africa).

But this is not very relevant to the history of Jews in Europe because they were principally a historically continental European population and in that sphere, while I agree with you that middle to upper class intellectual and irreligious Jews were ironically heavily acculturated to the very western culture that treated them like shit, they—as a people—were never fully accepted as "European" and were frequently orientalized:

“The Jew became the epitome of the outsider, whose racial characteristics were often portrayed as Oriental and fundamentally opposed to Western civilization.”
Mosse, George L. "Toward the Final Solution: A History of European Racism." (1985).

“The Jews were represented as a non-European, Oriental people, corrupting Western purity.”
Bauman, Zygmunt. "Modernity and the Holocaust." (1989).

“The Jew, particularly the Ostjude (Eastern Jew), was depicted as Asiatic, uncivilized, alien to European soil.”
Arendt, Hannah. "The Origins of Totalitarianism." (1951).

“In National Socialist ideology, Jews were not Europeans of a different faith but a foreign, Oriental race lodged inside the body of the nation.”
Heil, Johannes. “From Religious Prejudice to Racial Antisemitism.” In German History 22.1 (2004): 20–46.

Them and the Roma were basically what Muslims, Arabs and general "brown" people are today in the West. Even culturally assimilated irreligious Jews like Einstein were never fully accepted and the Jews and Roma were basically the constant scapegoat for why the economy was going bad, why society was somehow "decaying" and this in part led to what happened to them during the holocaust.

As a western born and raised Muslim I think you somewhat do yourself a disservice by not taking seriously the position these people actually had in Europe historically because, believe me, every disgusting and slimy anti-Muslim thing these cadaans push nowadays is right out of the antisemitic playbook of yesteryear. They've just rehashed and changed the tropes they choose to portray but it's the same strategy and you guys are the new scapegoat.

And I think you're ignoring the elephant in the room that exemplified why Jews were so honed in on and scapegoated as a source of "cultural decay" in Europe; Orthodox Jewish culture which existed in parallel to acculturated middle-class, irreligious Jewish culture among people like Einstein whom cadaans never fundamentally saw as different from some Hasidic ninja running around with his sidecurls.

Orthodox Jews in Europe retained many cultural traits with clear Middle Eastern roots that made them appear visibly foreign or “Oriental” to European societies; particularly the northern ones. Their robes when engaged in liturgy, sidecurls, and head coverings resembled Levantine or Babylonian dress; their use of Hebrew-Aramaic in prayer, strict dietary laws, gender separation, and religious legal systems paralleled Islamic or Eastern traditions more than Christian European norms. Even the structure of their insular communities echoed Eastern communal society, reinforcing the perception that they were culturally and "racially" alien within the European context— there is a reason we are allowed to eat kosher meat made even by Western Orthodox Jews, walaal.

To these cadaans the Orthodox Jews, even though even they had many western influences (like speaking bloody Semitic influenced German/Yiddish) were basically the equivalent of Somalis who walk around in jilbabs and khamiises today in the West. As long as these people existed, it didn't matter how much the Einsteins of the world dressed up in suits and acted German or whatever else. Everyone knew what their "base" culture was like, and it wasn't European looking. Top that with the fact that someone who clusters as south as Adygeis is rarely going to phenotypically pass among Germans, Poles and Russians and you start to understand why they got picked on as much as they did in continental Europe.

It's a sick irony that people like Herzl were indeed in turn stepped in this very culture that pushed their people around so brutally for generations (pogroms and all) and basically took everything out of the European Settler Colonial playbook when they plant to go to and landed on Palestinian soil. But I don't want to get into that too much or this general discussion because it's too many things to get into. Christian Zionists, cadaan antisemitism seeing moving them there as a "solution to the Jewish problem" but colonials simultaneously seeing them as a geopolitical satellite of Europe to use against MENAs... a lot of madness was going on there and it's too much to explore in this thread when I have other things going on so I'll just leave it there for this discussion.

 

[The alchemist]

I feel like we’re fixated on totally different things. My main contention is their genetics and their resulting phenotype which is indeed pretty much MENA.

What I in turn mainly take issue with online is when people—not you but people in general—behave like they have absolutely no connection to the land and are basically Polish or German converts who went crazy and just decided based on biblical stuff that they should go to the Middle East. This is ridiculous and untrue and I’m sure you would agree.



You are moving around too much, walaal. I never even addressed the anglosphere in my original post in this thread and, frankly, the anglosphere is completely irrelevant to this discussion. Western Jewry was never that significant in the anglo world before the 19th century. The Anglosphere is unique and weird as well, as you yourself have described, when it comes to what constitutes "white". Greeks, Italians, and even the Irish and Polish were once not considered "white" yet are now. And also, Arabs like Syrians and Lebanese were frequently counted as "white" in early America around when the Italians and Greeks were also being accepted. These anglo labels are genuinely socially constructed muddy stuff so I don't think it matters what anyone considers "white" in places like the Anglosphere (America, Ozz, NZ, UK, and once South Africa).

But this is not very relevant to the history of Jews in Europe because they were principally a historically continental European population and in that sphere, while I agree with you that middle to upper class intellectual and irreligious Jews were ironically heavily acculturated to the very western culture that treated them like shit, they—as a people—were never fully accepted as "European" and were frequently orientalized:



Them and the Roma were basically what Muslims, Arabs and general "brown" people are today in the West. Even culturally assimilated irreligious Jews like Einstein were never fully accepted and the Jews and Roma were basically the constant scapegoat for why the economy was going bad, why society was somehow "decaying" and this in part led to what happened to them during the holocaust.

As a western born and raised Muslim I think you somewhat do yourself a disservice by not taking seriously the position these people actually had in Europe historically because, believe me, every disgusting and slimy anti-Muslim thing these cadaans push nowadays is right out of the antisemitic playbook of yesteryear. They've just rehashed and changed the tropes they choose to portray but it's the same strategy and you guys are the new scapegoat.

And I think you're ignoring the elephant in the room that exemplified why Jews were so honed in on and scapegoated as a source of "cultural decay" in Europe; Orthodox Jewish culture which existed in parallel to acculturated middle-class, irreligious Jewish culture among people like Einstein whom cadaans never fundamentally saw as different from some Hasidic ninja running around with his sidecurls.

Orthodox Jews in Europe retained many cultural traits with clear Middle Eastern roots that made them appear visibly foreign or “Oriental” to European societies; particularly the northern ones. Their robes when engaged in liturgy, sidecurls, and head coverings resembled Levantine or Babylonian dress; their use of Hebrew-Aramaic in prayer, strict dietary laws, gender separation, and religious legal systems paralleled Islamic or Eastern traditions more than Christian European norms. Even the structure of their insular communities echoed Eastern communal society, reinforcing the perception that they were culturally and "racially" alien within the European context— there is a reason we are allowed to eat kosher meat made even by Western Orthodox Jews, walaal.

To these cadaans the Orthodox Jews, even though even they had many western influences (like speaking bloody Semitic influenced German/Yiddish) were basically the equivalent of Somalis who walk around in jilbabs and khamiises today in the West. As long as these people existed, it didn't matter how much the Einsteins of the world dressed up in suits and acted German or whatever else. Everyone knew what their "base" culture was like, and it wasn't European looking. Top that with the fact that someone who clusters as south as Adygeis is rarely going to phenotypically pass among Germans, Poles and Russians and you start to understand why they got picked on as much as they did in continental Europe.

It's a sick irony that people like Herzl were indeed in turn stepped in this very culture that pushed their people around so brutally for generations (pogroms and all) and basically took everything out of the European Settler Colonial playbook when they plant to go to and landed on Palestinian soil. But I don't want to get into that too much or this general discussion because it's too many things to get into. Christian Zionists, cadaan antisemitism seeing moving them there as a "solution to the Jewish problem" but colonials simultaneously seeing them as a geopolitical satellite of Europe to use against MENAs... a lot of madness was going on there and it's too much to explore in this thread when I have other things going on so I'll just leave it there for this discussion.

Whatever you disagree with, lets agree to disagree on that. I clarified things several times over and think clariying more on additional matters brought up by you just cascades into more roomes for the goalpost to shiftand it really comes down to you not disagreeing but not liking what I write. Remember that everything I write mentions separate categories that don't undermine the central points but we can't have a conversation like this without mentining them. You'll get the rationale if you want to.

This conversation dragged on for too long. You know for a fact I am not calling them white-white as I have said many times over but somehow we're back to very narrow definitions when I explainted how these things are very nuanced but overall the Askhenazi Jews were how I described them. I don't peddle popular takes that often go unchecked in the West. That usually brings life to things that is unjustified. That is why Israel is so "complicated" to cadaans, right?

 

[Shimbiris]

Whatever you disagree with, lets agree to disagree on that. I clarified things several times over and think clariying more on additional matters brought up by you just cascades into more roomes for the goalpost to shiftand it really comes down to you not disagreeing but not liking what I write. Remember that everything I write mentions separate categories that don't undermine the central points but we can't have a conversation like this without mentining them. You'll get the rationale if you want to.

This conversation dragged on for too long. You know for a fact I am not calling them white-white as I have said many times over but somehow we're back to very narrow definitions when I explainted how these things are very nuanced but overall the Askhenazi Jews were how I described them. I don't peddle popular takes that often go unchecked in the West. That usually brings life to things that is unjustified. That is why Israel is so "complicated" to cadaans, right?

Yeah, I don't think we disagree overall, to be honest. I think we're getting lost in semantics is the sense I get. Overall I agree with your point that Israel is a western colonialist project and secular AJs are basically western in ideology and culture. Hell, they even mistreat Sephardim, Mizrahim and Ethiopian Jews (you heard of the sterilization scandal?) precisely because they see themselves as "European" and these groups as "inferior" to them. It's wild and vile irony, wallahi. They 100% mimic and emulate the cadaans they came to that place to escape in the first place.