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If Somalia got reparations?

I do not think any reasonable Somali person would disagree.
Who are you kidding, saaxib.

The vast majority of Somalis are qabiilists. They will not stand for their leaders to be put on trial.

That's why you had large number of Somalian's protesting the USA war crimes trial of Maxamed Cali Samatar. It is why Morgan is treated as a hero in Garowe, and why Somalia presidential candidates take pictures with him because they know that will endear them well with MJ's. It is why the current Somalia government goes out of its why to protect Tuke from prosecution in the US. It's why Somalia has given state funeral to war criminals.

Let's not live in a pretend fantasy land where this isn't reality.
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Who are you kidding, saaxib.

The vast majority of Somalis are qabiilists. They will not stand for their leaders to be put on trial.

That's why you had large number of Somalian's protesting the USA war crimes trial of Maxamed Cali Samatar. It is why Morgan is treated as a hero in Garowe, and why Somalia presidential candidates take pictures with him because they know that will endear them well with MJ's. It is why the current Somalia government goes out of its why to protect Tuke from prosecution in the US. It's why Somalia has given state funeral to war criminals.

Let's not live in a pretend fantasy land where this isn't reality.

I completely agree with your sentiment there.

That is why when Somalia becomes stable, everyone goes on trial and answers questions about the war. USC, SSDF, Kacaan, SNM etc.

If anyone believes their leader is innocent let him or her have their day in court. Let the Somali people decide if they are truly innocent of their crimes.

We can all agree that SNM are probably the most moral organisation in that period, so I understand my putting them there on this list is controversial. However, I think subpoenas for them will not only educate Somalis about the systemic massacres but highlight the power disparity between the Kacaan and anti-Kacaan fighters.
 
Somaliland should not be bribed back any means.

A future deal with Somaliland should involve political concessions and constitutional guarantees. Preferably an internationally observed treaty that grants Somaliland essentially whatever reasonable demand they want.

As the most established region in Somalia, Somaliland should have the upper hand in any reconciliation agreement.

The current status quo of Somaliland being a pseudo-nation will harm both parties when Somalia eventually becomes stable. A stable Somalia will have full control of airspace and territorial waters that covers SL despite not having control on the ground. That potential chess match embarrasses everyone.

That is why I will only ever call for Somaliland's reconciliation after Somalia has dealt with its demons, one of which is Somaliland itself.

Being a part of Somalia was extremely harmful to Somaliland. We will never return to that.

Somaliland has a strong army. If Somalia ever becomes stable, Somaliland will have even stronger army at that point. Somalia's only way of ever bringing Somaliland back into a union, is if they get through that army. That is not me saying that, that is the will of the majority of Somalilanders.
 

Based

VIP
Being a part of Somalia was extremely harmful to Somaliland. We will never return to that.

Somaliland has a strong army. If Somalia ever becomes stable, Somaliland will have even stronger army at that point. Somalia's only way of ever bringing Somaliland back into a union, is if they get through that army. That is not me saying that, that is the will of the majority of Somalilanders.
Ragtag Somalianland army against our mooryaan SNA.

Finally a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary
 

reer

VIP
Xamar should pay reparation for Somaliland for the economic and human destruction it caused in the 80s
we talking about colonial repatriations you were subjugated for a whole generation by britain and bombed by winston churchill after ww1. and then they imported weapons to start clan wars that lasted nearly 20 years.
your reply is hawiye gib me money fock xamar and kacaan. :mjlol:
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Being a part of Somalia was extremely harmful to Somaliland. We will never return to that.

Somaliland has a strong army. If Somalia ever becomes stable, Somaliland will have even stronger army at that point. Somalia's only way of ever bringing Somaliland back into a union, is if they get through that army.

Look man, I understand why you want to separate from Somalia and remain that way. However, you are over simplifying the situation in the future.

The issue for Somaliland is that this as independent as a state they will ever become. Somaliland will not receive international recognition until Somalia has accepted it, this is in line with the norms that bind modern nation states. A stable Somalia will see less international partners willing to advocate the case for Somaliland, for example notice that Kurdistan is most mentioned when Iraq is in turmoil.

Also, a self-declared nation with its own currency, army and government, is considered a threat to the sovereignty of a nation-state. Somalia will have an argument to make that Somaliland is a treasonous entity that harms its existance as a nation-state, which is backed up by neo-realist international relations theory, the dominant school of thought in the subject.

A stable Somalia, as aforementioned, will have the ability to control the sea and the airspace around Somaliland. Maybe not excellently but better than Somaliland would be able to. Furthermore, as a stable nation, Somalia will have its arms embargo removed which will allow it to overtake the military capacity of Somaliland.

Now the situation Somaliland will be left in is that within a few years of stability in Somalia, they will be largely ignored by the international community as a model and have their sovereignty in the air as well as sea eliminated. Furthermore, due to the precedent set by the US, any war caused by Somalia against SL will be considered self-defence as SL has threatened the stability of Somalia, a recognised nation-state.


This is why I believe, when Somalia becomes peaceful and stable, Somaliland should try get the best terms of reconciliation possible.
 
we talking about colonial repatriations you were subjugated for a whole generation by britain. your reply is hawiye gib me money fock xamar. :mjlol:
Warya italy subjected you guys where somali xeer is broken and still dealing with the Italian colonial consequence while Brittain only cared about securing the Aden sea trade route and locals governed themselves according to the somali xeer :drakekidding:
 
Reparaitions are unworkable

I repeat Afweyne crimes were mostly motivated by Daaroodism ideology. Any hypothetical reparations would have to be from Jabarti clans that supported Afwene i.e. exclude MJ and the reparations go to clans that Afweyne harmed for tribalist reasons i.e. Samaale/Irir, MJ, and Isaaq

You cant force Haawiye to pay reparations to Isaaq or MJ since Afweyne was acting without Haawiye consent and against Haawiye interests. Did mention Afweyne crimes were mostly about favoring certain Jabarti clans against the interests of Irir/Haawiye, MJ, and Isaaq

An alternative I would propose is taxing Jabartis excluding MJ to pay for compulsury education for southernJabartis teach them real history

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I completely agree with your sentiment there.

That is why when Somalia becomes stable, everyone goes on trial and answers questions about the war. USC, SSDF, Kacaan, SNM etc.

If anyone believes their leader is innocent let him or her have their day in court. Let the Somali people decide if they are truly innocent of their crimes.

We can all agree that SNM are probably the most moral organisation in that period, so I understand my putting them there on this list is controversial. However, I think subpoenas for them will not only educate Somalis about the systemic massacres but highlight the power disparity between the Kacaan and anti-Kacaan fighters.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but this discussion is entirely academic and futile.

1. I don't see how Somalia ever becomes stable.
2. If it somehow magically ever does, it will be long after any remnants of Afweyne's regime are dead. At that point any post-humous trials would just be for show, and will hold no weight with any victims or perpetrators.
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
I don't disagree with your sentiment, but this discussion is entirely academic and futile.

1. I don't see how Somalia ever becomes stable.
2. If it somehow magically ever does, it will be long after any remnants of Afweyne's regime are dead. At that point any post-humous trials would just be for show, and will hold no weight with any victims or perpetrators.

I think I agreed with point 2 in essence in a response to someone else.

If Somalia become a stable nation-state, by that point many SRC/XHKS figureheads would be dead.

I think however, this idea should remain on the table and be implemented if feasible.
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
The victim olympics in this thread lol

We are just talking about to heal our people after 20 years. We may not agree on the direction we want to go as a people but we all understand that we need to clear the air.

However, you can get the f*ck out.

:camby:
 

Periplus

Min Al-Nahr ila Al-Ba7r
VIP
Anyways, long derail but very interesting conversation ngl.

If Somalia received reparations from Italy, what would you tell Italy to spend it on?

Low cost social housing apartment complexes in major cities, railways and a highway system sounds good imo.
 

mr steal your naag

banu hashim and shiettt
VIP
Libya received reparations from the Italians a few years ago.


Click here: Italy Agrees to $5 Billion Libya Reparations (NY Times)





If you could choose the terms of reparations between Somalia and the Italian government what would it be?

Personally, I would keep the same terms as Libya but a larger amount of money. After all, Libya was only colonised until 1943 but Somalia was until 1960 and arguably more severe.

I would also add a clause demanding Somalia and Italy play a friendly football match once every year. The match will be held in Rome. We can name the friendly series after Giorgio Marincola, which will also raise awareness.

This allows the squad to improve and the split profits from the match will boost the revenue of the Football federation.

What would you guys do?
I dont even understand why you want reparations or care. Everybody in this thread knows in which pocket the reparations money will end. Cough cough somali politicians. And if somalia eventually gets reparations they should tell the colonisers to not give it to the somali politicians but invest it in roads and buildings. Otherwise the money will be gone :sass1:
 
We are just talking about to heal our people after 20 years. We may not agree on the direction we want to go as a people but we all understand that we need to clear the air.

However, you can get the f*ck out.

:camby:
The thread was about somalis getting reparations from Italy but here all the landers go talking about they want reparations from Xamar as if we had anything to do with Siad Barre's attack on the Isaaqs
 
Look man, I understand why you want to separate from Somalia and remain that way. However, you are over simplifying the situation in the future.

The issue for Somaliland is that this as independent as a state they will ever become. Somaliland will not receive international recognition until Somalia has accepted it, this is in line with the norms that bind modern nation states. A stable Somalia will see less international partners willing to advocate the case for Somaliland, for example notice that Kurdistan is most mentioned when Iraq is in turmoil.

If this is as independent as Somaliland will ever become, then it is still better than any horrible union with Somalia. You southerners have this silly notion in your head that we are only holding onto our independence as a means to get recognition. Independence IS our goal, recognition would be a huge bonus. There is a very famous video of Somaliland's first Vice-President, Mujaahid Xassan Ciise Jaamac, walking through a completely destroyed Hargeisa , as part of a documentary in 1992. He is asked by the journalist if the world knows that Somaliland exists. As he walks around completely unprotected and joking with the local population, he tells the journalist that we are not too concerned with what the world thinks - we have our own government, our freedom and our people can go about their lives not worrying about that going anywhere, or a return to our formal situation.
Our stance has been one and the same from 18th May 1991.

Recognition would be huge for Somaliland, but it is not the be all and end all. That is our freedom and our ability to govern ourselves. No-one will take that away from us. A de-facto, independent status for the rest of time would be more preferable to Somaliland than any proposed re-union with Somalia.

Also, a self-declared nation with its own currency, army and government, is considered a threat to the sovereignty of a nation-state. Somalia will have an argument to make that Somaliland is a treasonous entity that harms its existance as a nation-state, which is backed up by neo-realist international relations theory, the dominant school of thought in the subject.

No matter how you huff and puff, and beg to the international community, they will never sanction any action taken against a democratic, peaceful and successful government like that of Somaliland. They would certainly never back you in a war to reclaim Somaliland.

A stable Somalia, as aforementioned, will have the ability to control the sea and the airspace around Somaliland. Maybe not excellently but better than Somaliland would be able to. Furthermore, as a stable nation, Somalia will have its arms embargo removed which will allow it to overtake the military capacity of Somaliland.

You speak too much about hypotheticals and pipedreams. I like to deal in reality. In reality for a longtime now, Somaliland has had extremely good control over its sea. It does not allow any unauthorized fishing, and other then the odd small time Yemeni fisherman, no foreign agents have been able to fish our sea like they have basically raped Somalia's seas now for decades. It goes without saying that piracy has never been an issue in the see off the Somaliland coast. I mention this only to reiterate, that just like the rest of Somaliland's territory, if Somalia ever wants to think about trying to claim Somaliland's sea, it'll have to do so by force.

Furthermore, due to the precedent set by the US, any war caused by Somalia against SL will be considered self-defence as SL has threatened the stability of Somalia, a recognised nation-state.
Complete and utter arsewater of the highest kind. No-one in the IC will sanction any war by Somalia against a peaceful, democratic and successful government in Somaliland. Keep dreaming.
 
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Ragtag Somalianland army against our mooryaan SNA.

Finally a worthy opponent, our battle will be legendary
Lol, a "rag tag" SNM of less than 3000 took apart the most powerful Army Somalia ever had and ever will have. Since then Somaliland has built easily the most powerful Somali army currently on Somali soil. Bring on the pathetic excuse you call your SNA, that has been Al Shabaab's b**ch for 20 years.

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