I Propose

[AussieHustler]

O

First Ethiopia must disintegrate into 4-5 states. It's an illegal empire built through European colonialism.

Prince

The idea is to create a supra-state and you are calling for these that exist now to fragment and then create a union. Can you expand on it?

 

[Ferrari]

Have I read this topic before? I feel like I read a similar content recently. How can we join such a union when like someone already said, both Kenya and Ethiopia occupy parts of somali lands? As if that wasn't enough, aren't they in our country as we speak? What kind of a Somali in their right mind would even entertain such a dumb idea?

@Canuck was right. Too many people on this site are floating around ideas like this. wtf is going on? We need to start looking within for enemies hada kadib. we got snakes and spineless traitors among us.

 

[Cinnamon Spice]

....the establishment of a Horn Of African union/alliance be it political, militarily and economical for all the member States in that region to develop and advance our countries and people. In Europe, France, Germany and Britain fought hundreds of years and were sworn enemies during that period. Post Second World War, Western Europe (with the threats of Communism) had a hard look at itself and decided that unity (E.U & NATO) rather than war would benefit and deliver them permanent security, progress and wealth to their States and citizens. Today Europe is wealthier and more secure and they have absorbed millions of refugees and more desire to legally and illegally migrate to them while risking their lives. Why can't we learn a lesson from them?

Kenya, Somalia/Somaliland, Jibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia spend billions of $$ of their meagre budgets on arms intended to be used on one another. The overwhelming majority of the people in these countries live below the poverty line, they cant access proper schooling, basic health services, electricity, even drinking water and child mortality rates are very high. Unemployment is rife where most of the youth in these countries dream of escaping poverty and reaching the shores of the Western world to live better lives. They want to reach the same western countries who swallowed their pride and decided to bury the rivalry with their adversaries and instead implement friendships and alliances. That is the foundation of their current status that attracts our citizenry to escape to. Why can't we emulate them and cease the militaristic rivalries for the benefit of our countries and people? Should we always be in perpetual wars, live in abject poverty and expect foreign aid?

Discuss

No. And we weren't always in this state of poverty and conflict. What you are proposing is a joke and, if Somalia is headed in the right direction, will never happen.

 

[AussieHustler]

Guys

With due respect to your deeply held convictions about Ethiopia and to a lesser degree Kenya that they are enemies (real or imagined) of Somalis is the nucleus and the reasons for this idea. The lack of trust between these nations and populace is mutual. The hatred among themselves will only get nastier and deeper that requires massive expenditures on arms and the military. These countries would have opportunistic leaders who will manipulate their citizenry about the existence of an enemy that wants to destroy and absorbs them. Ask yourself, who benefits from it and who are the losers? It is the people of these nations and Somalis, the most. Should we march on that nihilistic road or expedite other alternatives? This idea warrants to be discussed and not dismissed for emotive reasons.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Deterrence served Somalia well. Glad Farmaajo is NOT limiting SNA soldiers to 18K. He said 100K-200K to our capacity. A Realist he seems scary to game theorists in Kenya and Ethiopia!

 

[Cognitivedissonance]

....the establishment of a Horn Of African union/alliance be it political, militarily and economical for all the member States in that region to develop and advance our countries and people. In Europe, France, Germany and Britain fought hundreds of years and were sworn enemies during that period. Post Second World War, Western Europe (with the threats of Communism) had a hard look at itself and decided that unity (E.U & NATO) rather than war would benefit and deliver them permanent security, progress and wealth to their States and citizens. Today Europe is wealthier and more secure and they have absorbed millions of refugees and more desire to legally and illegally migrate to them while risking their lives. Why can't we learn a lesson from them?

Kenya, Somalia/Somaliland, Jibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia spend billions of $$ of their meagre budgets on arms intended to be used on one another. The overwhelming majority of the people in these countries live below the poverty line, they cant access proper schooling, basic health services, electricity, even drinking water and child mortality rates are very high. Unemployment is rife where most of the youth in these countries dream of escaping poverty and reaching the shores of the Western world to live better lives. They want to reach the same western countries who swallowed their pride and decided to bury the rivalry with their adversaries and instead implement friendships and alliances. That is the foundation of their current status that attracts our citizenry to escape to. Why can't we emulate them and cease the militaristic rivalries for the benefit of our countries and people? Should we always be in perpetual wars, live in abject poverty and expect foreign aid?

Discuss

War is better than emulating pagan may Somalia continue to be in war till they choose an Islamic form of government may Allah continue to disgrace us till we turn back to him.

 

[Keyser Söze]

War is better than emulating pagan may Somalia continue to be in war till they choose an Islamic form of government may Allah continue to disgrace us till we turn back to him.

On April 18, 2009, the Somali parliament voted unanimously to adopt Shariah law. Article 8 of the Transitional Federal Charter reads, in part, “(1) Islam shall be the religion of the Somali Republic. (2). The Islamic Shariah shall be the basic source for national legislation”.

 

[Cognitivedissonance]

On April 18, 2009, the Somali parliament voted unanimously to adopt Shariah law. Article 8 of the Transitional Federal Charter reads, in part, “(1) Islam shall be the religion of the Somali Republic. (2). The Islamic Shariah shall be the basic source for national legislation”.

Let's be honest there's nothing Islamic about 4.5

 

[Canuck]

Guys

With due respect to your deeply held convictions about Ethiopia and to a lesser degree Kenya that they are enemies (real or imagined) of Somalis is the nucleus and the reasons for this idea. The lack of trust between these nations and populace is mutual. The hatred among themselves will only get nastier and deeper that requires massive expenditures on arms and the military. These countries would have opportunistic leaders who will manipulate their citizenry about the existence of an enemy that wants to destroy and absorbs them. Ask yourself, who benefits from it and who are the losers? It is the people of these nations and Somalis, the most. Should we march on that nihilistic road or expedite other alternatives? This idea warrants to be discussed and not dismissed for emotive reasons.

Most of them are diaspora Somalis who don't know or have clear image of suffering the Somalis in Ethiopia and Kenya, add to it the selfhaters with low IQ and you will have these stupids preaching about union.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Let's be honest there's nothing Islamic about 4.5

Agree, that's just to divide us! don't know any self respecting Somali who supports 4.5 and the regional governments.

 

[AussieHustler]

Anyone on this thread living in Somalia? Pragmatism is not yet lost on Somalis because most negative comments here are made by older Somalis.

 

[Canuck]

Report: Kenya, Ethiopia Using Excessive Force Against Somali Civilians
April 27, 2017 10:41 AM

• Harun Maruf

A Somali soldier provides security as newly displaced Somalis gather at a camp on the outskirts of Mogadishu, Somalia, March 28, 2017. A new report says cross-border airstrikes by Kenya have been targeting civilians in pastoral communities in Somalia's Gedo region.

See comments

Kenya and Ethiopia have used excessive force against Somali civilians amid efforts to halt cross-border attacks by al-Shabab, according to an internal report by aid agencies working in Somalia.

The report, obtained by VOA's Somali Service, says Kenya has carried out dozens of airstrikes targeting pastoral communities in Somalia's Gedo region since June of 2015. It says Kenyan Wildlife Service personnel pressed into border patrol duty have targeted people with arbitrary arrests and extrajudicial killings.

The report says Ethiopia deployed a paramilitary force along the border to push back pastoralists who had settled in a "grey zone" between Somalia and Ethiopia. It says the force, known as the Liyu Police, committed acts of sexual violence, including a practice called “break and rape” in which women's limbs are fractured.

Kenya Defense Forces spokesman Colonel Jospeh Owuoth denied the accusations, saying Kenya attacks only al-Shabab targets. Ethiopian leaders in the region could not be reached, but the president of the region, Abdi Mohamud Omar, has previously denied all allegations concerning abuses by the Liyu Police.

Eyewitness accounts

But residents of the regions told VOA of incidents that seem to confirm the report's findings.

Mohamud Nur Osman is a community leader in Likoley village, Gedo region. He says Kenyan warplanes recently struck several locations where it had rained and herders had gathered to let their animals graze.

“People have fled from drought-hit areas. They move to where it rains. They [Kenya] bomb where people have been converging,” he said.

He says one strike took place near his village seven days ago. “People who are following the clouds have arrived there. They are civilians, not an army, and they were targeted. No one was killed, but animals died, including camels and goats," he says.

Hassan Mohamed Mukhtar, who fled an area near the Somali-Ethiopian border, told VOA his younger sister, Ruqiya, was arrested and taken to Barey town in Ethiopia by the Liyu Police 15 months ago. They acted because her husband had once accepted $100 to help an al-Shabab operation, he says.

FILE - Ethiopian soldiers patrol in Baidoa, Somalia, Feb. 29, 2012. Both Ethiopia and Kenya have had troops in Somalia for years as part of an African Union mission mandate to fight al-Shabab.



Aid agencies collaborate

The report was written within the past two weeks and its authenticity was confirmed to VOA's Somali service by three humanitarian aid workers working in Somalia. U.N. aid agencies and associated non-governmental organizations, "protection clusters," as they are called, periodically team up to write such reports.

Both Kenya and Ethiopia have stationed troops in Somalia for years as part of an African Union mission mandated to fight al-Shabab. The mission, AMISOM, played a central role in ejecting al-Shabab from Somali cities.

The new report says Kenya and Ethiopia have mobilized non-AMISOM troops to secure their borders. It was these steps that resulted in many actions which are outside of the AMISOM mandate and caused confusion with regards to accountability, it says.

Ethiopia's Liyu Police were formed in 2007 to fight against the rebel group, the Ogaden National Liberation Front, in the ethnic Somali region. Human rights groups have accused them of abuses against civilians in the region.

In Kenya's case, airstrikes targeted water points with the rationale that those resources are used by al-Shabab militants. But the report says “the distinction between military targets and civilians is skewed in the Somali context."

The report also says Kenya has deployed members of its Wildlife Service along the border with Somalia to bolster security. But the report says Somali pastoralists who often move across the frontier, "were now subject to arbitrary arrest, detention, abductions and extrajudicial killings.”

Kenya denials

KDF spokesman Colonel Jospeh Owuoth strongly denied the allegations. “That is not correct, absolutely not true for several reasons,” he said.

“When the KDF and AMSIOM conduct an airstrike it makes sure, almost excessively sure that they have no civilian components in that locations," he said. "We strictly target only the al-Shabab terrorists, at no time have we ever targeted a water point where there are civilians or a building or a location where we suspect there are civilians.”

FILE - Two Kenyan army soldiers shield themselves from the downdraft of a Kenyan air force helicopter near the seaside town of Bur Garbo, Somalia, Dec. 14, 2011. A Kenyan military spokesman is categorically denying accusations that the Kenyan air force has been conducting airstrikes against Somali civilians.



“There is a drought in Somalia and you find that most of the civilians go to where there are water holes. You find that that is a big community of animals and people. We cannot bring fire on such a location,” he added.

Owuoth also denied the Kenya Wildlife Service is responsible for violent acts against Somali pastoralists. “KWS has never crossed into Somalia and has not operated on the border. That is not true at all," he said.

The report by the Somalia protection cluster accused Al-Shabab of blockading towns and urban areas controlled by the AMISOM and Somali forces in the Bakool and Bay regions.

It says the blockades prevents aid agencies from delivering humanitarian assistance to people in the drought-stricken region.

“The lack of movement from AS-controlled areas raises the question of whether AS will allow populations under their control or influence to leave and seek humanitarian assistance,” the report says.

 

[Cognitivedissonance]

Agree, that's just to divide us! don't know any self respecting Somali who supports 4.5 and the regional governments.

Regional governments?

There were regional government at the time of umar ibn khattab tell me where it says it's forbidden to have regional government in the Quran or hadiths

I was referring to the federal government of Somalia used 4.5 not the federal states.

 

[Canuck]

Anyone on this thread living in Somalia? Pragmatism is not yet lost on Somalis because most negative comments here are made by older Somalis.

Report: Kenya, Ethiopia Using Excessive Force Against Somali Civilians
April 27, 2017 10:41 AM

• Harun Maruf

A Somali soldier provides security as newly displaced Somalis gather at a camp on the outskirts of Mogadishu, Somalia, March 28, 2017. A new report says cross-border airstrikes by Kenya have been targeting civilians in pastoral communities in Somalia's Gedo region.

See comments

Kenya and Ethiopia have used excessive force against Somali civilians amid efforts to halt cross-border attacks by al-Shabab, according to an internal report by aid agencies working in Somalia.

The report, obtained by VOA's Somali Service, says Kenya has carried out dozens of airstrikes targeting pastoral communities in Somalia's Gedo region since June of 2015. It says Kenyan Wildlife Service personnel pressed into border patrol duty have targeted people with arbitrary arrests and extrajudicial killings.

The report says Ethiopia deployed a paramilitary force along the border to push back pastoralists who had settled in a "grey zone" between Somalia and Ethiopia. It says the force, known as the Liyu Police, committed acts of sexual violence, including a practice called “break and rape” in which women's limbs are fractured.

Kenya Defense Forces spokesman Colonel Jospeh Owuoth denied the accusations, saying Kenya attacks only al-Shabab targets. Ethiopian leaders in the region could not be reached, but the president of the region, Abdi Mohamud Omar, has previously denied all allegations concerning abuses by the Liyu Police.

Eyewitness accounts

But residents of the regions told VOA of incidents that seem to confirm the report's findings.

Mohamud Nur Osman is a community leader in Likoley village, Gedo region. He says Kenyan warplanes recently struck several locations where it had rained and herders had gathered to let their animals graze.

“People have fled from drought-hit areas. They move to where it rains. They [Kenya] bomb where people have been converging,” he said.

He says one strike took place near his village seven days ago. “People who are following the clouds have arrived there. They are civilians, not an army, and they were targeted. No one was killed, but animals died, including camels and goats," he says.

Hassan Mohamed Mukhtar, who fled an area near the Somali-Ethiopian border, told VOA his younger sister, Ruqiya, was arrested and taken to Barey town in Ethiopia by the Liyu Police 15 months ago. They acted because her husband had once accepted $100 to help an al-Shabab operation, he says.

FILE - Ethiopian soldiers patrol in Baidoa, Somalia, Feb. 29, 2012. Both Ethiopia and Kenya have had troops in Somalia for years as part of an African Union mission mandate to fight al-Shabab.



Aid agencies collaborate

The report was written within the past two weeks and its authenticity was confirmed to VOA's Somali service by three humanitarian aid workers working in Somalia. U.N. aid agencies and associated non-governmental organizations, "protection clusters," as they are called, periodically team up to write such reports.

Both Kenya and Ethiopia have stationed troops in Somalia for years as part of an African Union mission mandated to fight al-Shabab. The mission, AMISOM, played a central role in ejecting al-Shabab from Somali cities.

The new report says Kenya and Ethiopia have mobilized non-AMISOM troops to secure their borders. It was these steps that resulted in many actions which are outside of the AMISOM mandate and caused confusion with regards to accountability, it says.

Ethiopia's Liyu Police were formed in 2007 to fight against the rebel group, the Ogaden National Liberation Front, in the ethnic Somali region. Human rights groups have accused them of abuses against civilians in the region.

In Kenya's case, airstrikes targeted water points with the rationale that those resources are used by al-Shabab militants. But the report says “the distinction between military targets and civilians is skewed in the Somali context."

The report also says Kenya has deployed members of its Wildlife Service along the border with Somalia to bolster security. But the report says Somali pastoralists who often move across the frontier, "were now subject to arbitrary arrest, detention, abductions and extrajudicial killings.”

Kenya denials

KDF spokesman Colonel Jospeh Owuoth strongly denied the allegations. “That is not correct, absolutely not true for several reasons,” he said.

“When the KDF and AMSIOM conduct an airstrike it makes sure, almost excessively sure that they have no civilian components in that locations," he said. "We strictly target only the al-Shabab terrorists, at no time have we ever targeted a water point where there are civilians or a building or a location where we suspect there are civilians.”

FILE - Two Kenyan army soldiers shield themselves from the downdraft of a Kenyan air force helicopter near the seaside town of Bur Garbo, Somalia, Dec. 14, 2011. A Kenyan military spokesman is categorically denying accusations that the Kenyan air force has been conducting airstrikes against Somali civilians.



“There is a drought in Somalia and you find that most of the civilians go to where there are water holes. You find that that is a big community of animals and people. We cannot bring fire on such a location,” he added.

Owuoth also denied the Kenya Wildlife Service is responsible for violent acts against Somali pastoralists. “KWS has never crossed into Somalia and has not operated on the border. That is not true at all," he said.

The report by the Somalia protection cluster accused Al-Shabab of blockading towns and urban areas controlled by the AMISOM and Somali forces in the Bakool and Bay regions.

It says the blockades prevents aid agencies from delivering humanitarian assistance to people in the drought-stricken region.

“The lack of movement from AS-controlled areas raises the question of whether AS will allow populations under their control or influence to leave and seek humanitarian assistance,” the report says.

 

[Canuck]

http://africasacountry.com/2014/04/whats-it-like-to-be-somali-in-kenya/

 

[Canuck]

The stupid and morons members here want rest of Somalis join Kenya and Ethiopia to enjoy this beautiful fate. Misery loves company.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Regional governments?

There were regional government at the time of umar ibn khattab tell me where it says it's forbidden to have regional government in the Quran or hadiths

I was referring to the federal government of Somalia used 4.5 not the federal states.

Nothing wrong with having regional governors dude, do you support shan madaxwayne based on qabiils?

 

[Cognitivedissonance]

Nothing wrong with having regional governors dude, do you support shan madaxwayne based on qabiils?

Tell me a Somali man who doesn't belong to a tribe? Allah created us in to tribes so we may come to know one another so there's nothing wrong with being from a tribe.

 

[Keyser Söze]

Tell me a Somali man who doesn't belong to a tribe? Allah created us in to tribes so we may come to know one another so there's nothing wrong with being from a tribe.

Again agree, you didn't answer my question tho.

Ponder on this....

http://www.caasimada.net/2017-sanadkii-soomaaliya-ay-xijaabtay-wq-cali-mubaarak/

 

[oday1kenobi]

View attachment 17315 View attachment 17316
The stupid and morons members here want rest of Somalis join Kenya and Ethiopia to enjoy this beautiful fate. Misery loves company.

This was during the ironically named uslama watch operation where the govt illegally detained Somalis for over 70 days (most of whom were innocent incl women and children) in real life concentration camps! (as seen via human rights watch).

This was only in 2013 guys!!!

P.s. btw near the end of my first post, I was hinting of a sought of generic economic/political bloc (like ASEAN) and NOT of the super state/EU open borders style that the OP aspires to.