How Rwanda benefited from Somalia

[Bariire]

I only wish DR Osman was selected by Majerten to lead them in Embagathi. We would rock up with our politics stablized, power-sharing model decided. We would tell Somalis we won't accept anything below then this clan power sharing model.

Naaya osman why do you keep running away from me, stand your ground and face me off naagyahow.

I karbaash you constantly with facts and everytime you keep running away from me like a coward dhabayaco and only diss beesha Mx @TekNiKo @cow @Dalalos_ibn_Adali

 

[Waaqmasho]

That's a cop out. With all Somali government shortcomings there was no social unrest or human right violation of the calibre seen in the late 70s & 80s. Somalia had it problems like any new born democracy. It can't be destained to fail when it didn't get the appourtunity.


Rigging elections is tame compared to what followed during Kacan reign.

Listen, rigging is the start. What happens when clans demonstrate against this blatant injustice? They are met with fire and fury. And it escalates from there. Many anlaysis were written how the situation in Somalia was very tense. It simply can't be accepted that two clans take the majority of seats belonging to other. Even within MJ, the situation was so unfair it lead to sharmarke aun being assassinated. Also there was social unrest and human right violations. Maybe not to your clan, but other clans like leelkase got massacred by the MJs who were the political leaders at the time. Just because it didn't happen to your clan doesn't mean it didn't happen to others. What about the military coup in the north? What do you consider that?

 

[Periplus]

@Waaqmasho

Shut your mouth.

 

[Removed]

What is total victory in clan war?

 

[Kanan]

Listen, rigging is the start. What happens when clans demonstrate against this blatant injustice? They are met with fire and fury. And it escalates from there. Many anlaysis were written how the situation in Somalia was very tense. It simply can't be accepted that two clans take the majority of seats belonging to other. Even within MJ, the situation was so unfair it lead to sharmarke aun being assassinated. Also there was social unrest and human right violations. Maybe not to your clan, but other clans like leelkase got massacred by the MJs who were the political leaders at the time. Just because it didn't happen to your clan doesn't mean it didn't happen to others. What about the military coup in the north? What do you consider that?

Show me sources about the Somali army targeting Leelkase civilans with impunity based on political affiliation . You won't because 1960s government respected human rights and freedom of assembly.


I can't believe you brought up the coup none of the Sandhurst officers was sentenced to death nor their clans hunted down. Compare him to Siad Barre and how he scapegoated MJ in Mudug for AY coup and the staggering difference becomes clear.


By all accounts the 1960s government was the lesser of two evils.

 

[Kanan]

What is total victory in clan war?

Do you honestly believe any Somali clan has "won" in this 30 yo civil war?

 

[Removed]

Do you honestly believe any Somali clan has "won" in this 30 yo civil war?

No I dont think I even understand what op means by “winning”.

 

[Level58]

Nacala futadada ku yaale, u lying piece of b22n. 4.5 is empowering langaabs only who don't have the muscle in the nation to change shit. Murusade having same seats as abgaal is fair to you? or marehan having more seats then majerten when u only live in gedo n abudwaq. Wat sort of bullshit is 4.5. There is no HAWIYE, NO DAROD NO DIR. Everyone operates as separate clans. The best system would be to categorize somali clans as

Group A Clans. MJ n Abgaal. Assign same quota
Group B Clans. HG, Marehan, Dhulos, Isaaq, Rahanwayn, Ogaden. Assign same quota
Group C Clans. Hawadle, Murusade, Leelkase, Warsangeli. Assign same quota
Group D Clans. Gaaljacel, Dashishe, Awrtable, Benadiri, Arab Salax, Bimaal, Sheikhaal. Assign same quota

This is a far more realistic power sharing untill a proper census is done. As PL we should've rejected ARTA power-sharing model and presented the 'real model' of sub clan power sharing not tribal sharing.

If power was shared like that, that's exactly the true set up of Somalia clan power dynamics or it's very close to it. 4.5 just lumps darod, hawiye, dir, digil iyo mirifle, and minorities when there is no such thing on the ground.

This 4.5 disaster was done merely by Ismacil Geele to assign more power to HAG/DIR thru irirism. I mean Issa who don't even have a tuulo but live half of zaylac has like 10 seats in the parliament of Somalia, that was his agenda only. We must scrap 4.5 not act stupid and say it's the best system.

Dhulos and MX who have never led a state are in group B but not xawaadle who have. I get Mx getting a pass since they have the presidency but dhulbahante should be lower and swapped with XL

 

[Waaqmasho]

Show me sources about the Somali army targeting Leelkase civilans with impunity based on political affiliation . You won't because 1960s government respected human rights and freedom of assembly.


I can't believe you brought up the coup none of the Sandhurst officers was sentenced to death nor their clans hunted down. Compare him to Siad Barre and how he scapegoated MJ in Mudug for AY coup and the staggering difference becomes clear.


By all accounts the 1960s government was the lesser of two evils.

The MJ were using government weapons and they were soldiers. They also denied the real population to vote. They got votes in places where they didn't exist. Sharmarke himself survived an assassination attempt other that the one that killed him.

Also the coup by the waqooyi officers can't be compared. I just cited that as an example of social unrest. I don't want to explain how different the SSDF coup, you can read about that.

Anyways, we are deviating from my point which wasn't to compare the kacaan to the government of 1960 and which one killed more people. The answer is obvious. The point was, even without the kacaan somalia would have spiraled into civil war eventually. As there was no equitable fair representation. A minority taking the representation of the majority never ends good. The tensions were high already, which is why the president got killed. And it would have gotten worst, somalis weren't equal. That's why they welcomed the coup, why would a happy populace with a good democracy where they can voice their opinions entertain a military coup?They welcomed it because the military promised everyone was equal under military rule. That's why they supported it. Almost everyone except of course the MJs who were angry that their special status was stripped. They were cut down to size, they were now equal to everyone. No longer dominating politics and the military. That's why they decided to do a coup.

 

[TekNiKo]

The MJ were using government weapons and they were soldiers. They also denied the real population to vote. They got votes in places where they didn't exist. Sharmarke himself survived an assassination attempt other that the one that killed him.

Also the coup by the waqooyi officers can't be compared. I just cited that as an example of social unrest. I don't want to explain how different the SSDF coup, you can read about that.

Anyways, we are deviating from my point which wasn't to compare the kacaan to the government of 1960 and which one killed more people. The answer is obvious. The point was, even without the kacaan somalia would have spiraled into civil war eventually. As there was no equitable fair representation. A minority taking the representation of the majority never ends good. The tensions were high already, which is why the president got killed. And it would have gotten worst, somalis weren't equal. That's why they welcomed the coup, why would a happy populace with a good democracy where they can voice their opinions entertain a military coup?They welcomed it because the military promised everyone was equal under military rule. That's why they supported it. Almost everyone except of course the MJs who were angry that their special status was stripped. They were cut down to size, they were now equal to everyone. No longer dominating politics and the military. That's why they decided to do a coup.

You guys are both right

Kacaan from 1969~1976 was better than 1960-69 but 1960 to 1969 was better than 1977-91

 

[Som]

Somalia was meant to become a failed state ever since Siad Barre decided to destroy our democracy.
From 1969 to 1991, the country was going downhill, by 1977 the country was in an economic crisis that led to the civil war 14 years later.

Blaming siad barre for the current state of Somalia is just a lame excuse.
The problema of Somalia Statte after we lost the '77 War, Siad did many mistake but how can you blame a guy who left Somalia in 1992 and died in 1995? The opposition had 30 years to get their shit together and form a new government , instead they decided to destroy the country.
Is it Siad fault that abgaal and HG started killing each other as soon as they conquered Xamar? Is it Siad's fault that moryaans created AS and several other wahabi terrorist groups? The answer is clearly no.
Even if you want to blame Siad for creating the conditions that led to the collapse of Somalia you have countless examples in Africa of countries that experienced dictaroships and war but eventually got their shit together.

 

[Som]

You guys are both right

Kacaan from 1969~1976 was better than 1960-69 but 1960 to 1969 was better than 1977-91

This is the most balanced and correct opinion.
1969-1977 was a period of great improvement and enthusiasm. Unfortunately after 77 we had to deal with the consequences of the defeat and the betrayal of hypocrites who turned their backs on the Somali nation

 

[Nilotic]

So we're going to just ignore the fact that two prominent Western powers supported different sides in the Rwandan genocide? Washington supported the Tutsi and the French supported the Hutu.

 

[Mount23]

Dhulos and MX who have never led a state are in group B but not xawaadle who have. I get Mx getting a pass since they have the presidency but dhulbahante should be lower and swapped with XL

I think he basing it on population size also
Dhulos have large population and similar to MX etc.

 

[Kanan]

The MJ were using government weapons and they were soldiers. They also denied the real population to vote. They got votes in places where they didn't exist. Sharmarke himself survived an assassination attempt other that the one that killed him.

Also the coup by the waqooyi officers can't be compared. I just cited that as an example of social unrest. I don't want to explain how different the SSDF coup, you can read about that.

Anyways, we are deviating from my point which wasn't to compare the kacaan to the government of 1960 and which one killed more people. The answer is obvious. The point was, even without the kacaan somalia would have spiraled into civil war eventually. As there was no equitable fair representation. A minority taking the representation of the majority never ends good. The tensions were high already, which is why the president got killed. And it would have gotten worst, somalis weren't equal. That's why they welcomed the coup, why would a happy populace with a good democracy where they can voice their opinions entertain a military coup?They welcomed it because the military promised everyone was equal under military rule. That's why they supported it. Almost everyone except of course the MJs who were angry that their special status was stripped. They were cut down to size, they were now equal to everyone. No longer dominating politics and the military. That's why they decided to do a coup.

That's your own speculation not a fact. Darood & Hawiye had stakes in SYL with MJ at the top. Isaaq joined SYL at the end. D&M had their own party. Several sub clans had their own parties, it was running smoothly despite the corruption and ballot rigging so I fail to see where this doom and gloom is coming from.


I'm still waiting for the sources claiming the Somali government actively taken part in clan skirmishes against Lelkase in favor of MJ. And for the record the man who killed president Sharmarke was Cali Salebaan due to inner MJ conflict it has nothing to do with Lelkase.



Off course the coup attempts are comparable that's what sets the governments apart. One let go of the perpetrators the other endorsed a policy of collective punishment. The Somali civil war did not start in Mogadishu 1991 but in Mudug 1978. The way government handled social unrest is the best metric to measure its sustainability.

 

[Kanan]

Blaming siad barre for the current state of Somalia is just a lame excuse.
The problema of Somalia Statte after we lost the '77 War, Siad did many mistake but how can you blame a guy who left Somalia in 1992 and died in 1995? The opposition had 30 years to get their shit together and form a new government , instead they decided to destroy the country.
Is it Siad fault that abgaal and HG started killing each other as soon as they conquered Xamar? Is it Siad's fault that moryaans created AS and several other wahabi terrorist groups? The answer is clearly no.
Even if you want to blame Siad for creating the conditions that led to the collapse of Somalia you have countless examples in Africa of countries that experienced dictaroships and war but eventually got their shit together.

Because building a government is far mor

Blaming siad barre for the current state of Somalia is just a lame excuse.
The problema of Somalia Statte after we lost the '77 War, Siad did many mistake but how can you blame a guy who left Somalia in 1992 and died in 1995? The opposition had 30 years to get their shit together and form a new government , instead they decided to destroy the country.
Is it Siad fault that abgaal and HG started killing each other as soon as they conquered Xamar? Is it Siad's fault that moryaans created AS and several other wahabi terrorist groups? The answer is clearly no.
Even if you want to blame Siad for creating the conditions that led to the collapse of Somalia you have countless examples in Africa of countries that experienced dictaroships and war but eventually got their shit together.

We already talk about this before, building a government is far more difficult than running an existing one.


On the same token why didn't Siad Barre manage to set up a government in Gedo or most of Jubaland his Darood heartland despite all the wealth and armament he stocked? Exactly. This how difficult nation building is.

This line of narrative assume:

1- The government institutions was intact.

2- Barre created the government from scratch.


Both are false and usually brought up to brush up the image of Barre or make him look like he made tanasul to USC. He is just as responsible as Caydiid and Mahdi. Probably even more because they wouldn't exist had he didn't turn clans against each other and flame tribal feuds dating back centuries. He STARTED the civil war than ran to Kenya after giving up the NFD. He literally tarnished his own legacy and represents everything wrong with Somalia.


He may not be the only one to blame for Somalia's downfall at present but he's certainly on the very top of the list.

 

[Kanan]

You guys are both right

Kacaan from 1969~1976 was better than 1960-69 but 1960 to 1969 was better than 1977-91

The first 7 years was good we can't deny that a lot of projects and endeavors were completed under his leadership. But still the 7 year good deed window was overshadowed by 14 years of poverty, militarization, human rights violations and many more calamities that followed untill 1991.


Would you judge someone by the first 7 years or the last 14? Unfortunately when he left Somalia it was in a much worse position than when he come to rule. That's what most people would remember him for.

 

[TekNiKo]

The first 7 years was good we can't deny that a lot of projects and endeavors were completed under his leadership. But still the 7 year good deed window was overshadowed by 14 years of poverty, militarization, human rights violations and many more calamities that followed untill 1991.


Would you judge someone by the first 7 years or the last 14? Unfortunately when he left Somalia it was in a mich worse position than when he come to rule. That's what most people would remember him for.

Unfortunately his biggest mistake was engaging in the Ogaden war which ruined his strongest alliance and bankrupted the nation, he shouldve stepped down in 89 and handed over the reigns to the Supreme Council to conduct the proper transfer of power. Hargeisa attack was a big mistake and emboldened the public against him, All in all he had his good and bad but the last 7 were disastorous that I agree.

 

[reer]

Unfortunately his biggest mistake was engaging in the Ogaden war which ruined his strongest alliance and bankrupted the nation, he shouldve stepped down in 89 and handed over the reigns to the Supreme Council to conduct the proper transfer of power. Hargeisa attack was a big mistake and emboldened the public against him, All in all he had his good and bad but the last 7 were disastorous that I agree.

hd was too nice. let the bottom of the barrel waste fester. what you do is wipe them out like cockroaches quickly or you get an infestation.

 

[TekNiKo]

hd was too nice. let the bottom of the barrel waste fester. what you do is wipe them out like cockroaches quickly or you get an infestation.

He also failed to groom his sons into taking the reigns Maslax and co were busy living the life lol. Haffez Assad trained his son Bashar in leadership and sent him to Britain to be groomed. He was savage and killed 50k in the rebellion of Homs. Thats why his son survives today