How old was the Cushitic admixture event?

[Abdirazaq]

The most conservative estimates I tend to see seems to be around 3000 years and it was practically a given back in the 2010s that no admixed individuals similar to Cushitic/ethio-Semitic peoples lived before this time but a study from 2014 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055572/ suggested earlier admixture events happening which contributed to the peopling of modern horn African populations.

There’s also evidence of ancient Nubian populations from 4000 years ago being genetically similar to Cushitic populations so the 3000 years admixture event being the earliest possibility for a Cushitic/ethio-semetic like population has to be debunked now right?

In my opinion, the first and most significant admixture event probably happened somewhere in the middle Nile, before the advent of any of the earliest civilisations there like kush and Egypt so sometime before 5000 years ago and potentially as far back as the Mesolithic with the ancestors of modern Somalis, Anfar, Oromo etc already in the Horn of Africa when Egypt and kush sprung up.

This is just kind of a guess but I’m thinking this way cause of that genetic test that was done on a kushite individual that dates to 4000 years ago and is proved to be similar to modern Cushitic peoples, this specimen is similar to all other specimens in the middle Nile going back thousands of years but there’s no strong sense of a sudden shift when it comes to craniometric analysis until an older population in the Mesolithic era. Cushitic populations already being the Horn of Africa 5000 years ago (and potentially earlier) must be true when you consider that they were in Kenya 5000 years ago https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6827346/

Anyway, I’d like to know from those more knowledgeable and I’d also like to know the flaws in my logic.

 

[Guled85]

The most conservative estimates I tend to see seems to be around 3000 years and it was practically a given back in the 2010s that no admixed individuals similar to Cushitic/ethio-Semitic peoples lived before this time but a study from 2014 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4055572/ suggested earlier admixture events happening which contributed to the peopling of modern horn African populations.

There’s also evidence of ancient Nubian populations from 4000 years ago being genetically similar to Cushitic populations so the 3000 years admixture event being the earliest possibility for a Cushitic/ethio-semetic like population has to be debunked now right?

In my opinion, the first and most significant admixture event probably happened somewhere in the middle Nile, before the advent of any of the earliest civilisations there like kush and Egypt so sometime before 5000 years ago and potentially as far back as the Mesolithic with the ancestors of modern Somalis, Anfar, Oromo etc already in the Horn of Africa when Egypt and kush sprung up.

This is just kind of a guess but I’m thinking this way cause of that genetic test that was done on a kushite individual that dates to 4000 years ago and is proved to be similar to modern Cushitic peoples, this specimen is similar to all other specimens in the middle Nile going back thousands of years but there’s no strong sense of a sudden shift when it comes to craniometric analysis until an older population in the Mesolithic era. Cushitic populations already being the Horn of Africa 5000 years ago (and potentially earlier) must be true when you consider that they were in Kenya 5000 years ago https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6827346/

Anyway, I’d like to know from those more knowledgeable and I’d also like to know the flaws in my logic.

So the las geel paintings were made by our nilotic ancestors?

 

[Abdirazaq]

So the las geel paintings were made by our nilotic ancestors?

I guess that would be the idea but I don’t think that las geel has been properly dated I’ve heard some way 10,000 years while others say 5000, either way they were clearly a pastoral people, which would coincide with admixed population rather than a pure Nilotic population.

 

[Ibn Amer]

Well Cushitic is a 3 way mix between a proto-Nilotic + Neolithic/Chalcolithic/BA Levantine + Mesolithic Egyptian population, this mixing probably didn't happen all at once.

Based on findings in North Sudan, Al Khiday which is likely made up largely of local North East African ancestry, which I think will be associated with E-M35/E-M215, M1, U6 etc... and be on the Taforalt-Natufian cline, lived relatively close to Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa types and the remains are roughly contemporary, so the North African component may have been admixing with the proto-Nilotic component 12,000+ years ago for all we know. In any case, I definitely think the Mesolithic Egyptian + proto-Nilotic was the first to mix with eachother and then the Levantines, I'm not sure when the Levantine admixture event occured but it probably occured in waves given the fact that different pastoralists prefer different Levantines, some can be modelled with Natufian, others PPNB or BA Levant etc... Also Upper Egyptian skulls from the late predynastic onwards continuously trend towards the Lower Egyptian craniofacial form, indicating constant settlement from the North which would have ultimately impacted Lower Nubia aswell. Its likely that the earlier waves of Lower Egyptians/Levantines brought more PPNB ancestry, whilst later waves brought more BA Levantine ancestry. So it didn't happen all in one go and there isn't a single neat date you can pin it down to.

 

[Dima&Damo]

So the las geel paintings were made by our nilotic ancestors?

Their were never any niloticis in the horn those are probably the HG that cushites married

 

[Abdirazaq]

Well Cushitic is a 3 way mix between a proto-Nilotic + Neolithic/Chalcolithic/BA Levantine + Mesolithic Egyptian population, this mixing probably didn't happen all at once.

Based on findings in North Sudan, Al Khiday which is likely made up largely of local North East African ancestry, which I think will be associated with E-M35/E-M215, M1, U6 etc... and be on the Taforalt-Natufian cline, lived relatively close to Jebel Sahaba/Wadi Halfa types and the remains are roughly contemporary, so the North African component may have been admixing with the proto-Nilotic component 12,000+ years ago for all we know. In any case, I definitely think the Mesolithic Egyptian + proto-Nilotic was the first to mix with eachother and then the Levantines, I'm not sure when the Levantine admixture event occured but it probably occured in waves given the fact that different pastoralists prefer different Levantines, some can be modelled with Natufian, others PPNB or BA Levant etc... Also Upper Egyptian skulls from the late predynastic onwards continuously trend towards the Lower Egyptian craniofacial form, indicating constant settlement from the North which would have ultimately impacted Lower Nubia aswell. Its likely that the earlier waves of Lower Egyptians/Levantines brought more PPNB ancestry, whilst later waves brought more BA Levantine ancestry. So it didn't happen all in one go and there isn't a single neat date you can pin it down to.

Thanks for the info. I know it didn’t really happen all in one go but I was pretty sure of a pseudo-Cushitic ancestral make up existing pre-Egyptian/kush times that ultimately contributed to the people of modern horn African peoples with of course additional inputs overtime.

 

[Ibn Amer]

but I was pretty sure of a pseudo-Cushitic ancestral make up existing pre-Egyptian/kush times that ultimately contributed to the people of modern horn African peoples with of course additional inputs overtime.

I believe Sudans Neolithic goes back to 5000 BC, I think Cushitic-like groups have probably existed from some time close to this. Determining when Levantines entered Lower Nubia would probably be the best way to work this out as they would be the last component to admix into the other components that make up Cushitic IMO.

 

[Ibn Amer]

Their were never any niloticis in the horn those are probably the HG that cushites married

The early Holocene deposits at Lake Besaka and Buur Heybe have provided the earliest evidence in the Horn of intentional human burial....Morphological features of the crania indicate Negroid affinities and can best be compared to the Sudanese skeletons of Jebel Sahaba and Wadi Haifa (McCown n.d.).

For many years the only prehistoric human skeletal evidence from Somalia was the highly fragmentary remains of at least two individuals recovered during World War II by workmen digging a trench at the Rifle Range Site, Buur Hakaba (Clark I954:251). The 1983 and 1985 excavations at Gogoshiis Qabe have now yielded 12 complete human burials from the Holocene deposits, bones of three of which have been ~4C dated to the early Holocene (Brandt in prep.). One individual dating to 6900 + 350 bp (Beta-7474) on the organic fraction and 5210 + 90 bp on apatite (Beta-7473) was buried on his stomach, with at least thirteen comptete sets of lesser kudu horn cores, still attached to the frontiers, placed directly over the body. A man and a woman dating to 5225 _+ 280 bp (UCLA-2705C) on the organic fraction were buried side by side and a pile of stones placed directly over them. Preliminary morphological analysis of these and the other skeletons (L. A. Schepartz pets. comm.; Brand t and Schepartz in prep.) indicates the presence of a regionalIy distinct population at this time, aithough affinities with the late Pleistocene/early Holocene Sudanese and Kenya Rift Valley populations are suggested.

(PDF) The Upper Pleistocene and Early Holocene prehistory of the Horn of Africa

PDF | The last major synthesis of the Upper Pleistocene and early Holocene prehistory of the Horn was published over thirty years ago. This paper... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Wadi Halfa and Jebel Sahaba are holocene remains found in north Sudan and are believed to be a proto-Nilotic-like population, pre-Cushitic Somalians show affinities to these people according to the above. So its possible a Nilotic-like population once lived in Somalia.

 

[Nilotic]

@Ibn Amer

It seems more likely that the Proto-Nilotic component of Somali ancestry was acquired in North Sudan rather than the Horn; I don't proto-Nilotics were ever in the Horn.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

@Ibn Amer

It seems more likely that the Proto-Nilotic component of Somali ancestry was acquired in North Sudan rather than the Horn; I don't proto-Nilotics were ever in the Horn.

So who would've been in the horn before them? It only makes sense that Proto-Nilotes or some related group previously inhabited the horn

 

[World]

So who would've been in the horn before them? It only makes sense that Proto-Nilotes or some related group previously inhabited the horn

Horn of African hunter gatherers, for example the Omotic best represent the Hunter Gatherer group that lived in the highlands which Habeshas and Oromos are mixed with. For Somalia, the Hunter Gatherer group were absorbed by Somalis(they make up 10 % of our ancestry) and do not exist anymore but it’s distinct to Omotic/Ethiopian highland hunter gatherer.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Horn of African hunter gatherers, for example the Omotic best represent the Hunter Gatherer group that lived in the highlands which Habeshas and Oromos are mixed with. For Somalia, the Hunter Gatherer group were absorbed by Somalis(they make up 10 % of our ancestry) and do not exist anymore but it’s distinct to Omotic/Ethiopian highland hunter gatherer.

But Omotic people share very similar DNA to Nilotes. I imagine proto-omotes would not be very different to proto-nilotes.

 

[Abdirazaq]

But Omotic people share very similar DNA to Nilotes. I imagine proto-omotes would not be very different to proto-nilotes.

You could say the same thing about Niger-Congo peoples, they only separated from nilotes 28,000 years ago, also Khoi-san were much further up in Africa than previously thought so they could’ve once inhabited parts of the horn.

 

[World]

But Omotic people share very similar DNA to Nilotes. I imagine proto-omotes would not be very different to proto-nilotes.

Not really. Moto man is the proto-Omotic sample found in a cave in Ethiopian highlands 4500 years ago, he’s not related to Nilotic at all. Omotic and Nilotic are as distinct as Nilotic and Bantu.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Not really. Moto man is the proto-Omotic sample found in a cave in Ethiopian highlands 4500 years ago, he’s not related to Nilotic at all. Omotic and Nilotic are as distinct as Nilotic and Bantu.

The source for this please?

 

[King Khufu]

depends on which theory do you describe to?
cos there's different ways this is figured out ok

do you believe Bible (or Quran) with Ham's son Cush after Noah's flood?
do you subscribe to science that says Khoi-San as the oldest blood?
do you subscribe to science theory that says Ethiopia as humanity's birthplace?
if you subscribe to science theory, which Cushitic tribe appeared first?
Which years do you articulate a pure cushitic stock versus later admixtures?
I mean these answers all have different findings but this is according to science.

Besides noted trace blood lines written and passed, is somali original language?
I think that's where you have to get a notepad and sort out the facts w/ totality.
because only a few answers out of those questions be absolute truth w/o doubt.

 

[Garaad diinle]

But Omotic people share very similar DNA to Nilotes. I imagine proto-omotes would not be very different to proto-nilotes.

Source?

 

[Nilotic]

So who would've been in the horn before them? It only makes sense that Proto-Nilotes or some related group previously inhabited the horn

Hunter-gatherers were in the Horn.

It seems pretty clear that Nilo-Saharans were situated in Sudan and Chad

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Source?

The Mota are best represented by the Omotic Ari populations as shown by the studies that uncovered the Mota genome. And plotting Ari samples into Vahaduo leaves you with an SSA component similar to Nilotes

 

[Garaad diinle]

The Mota are best represented by the Omotic Ari populations as shown by the studies that uncovered the Mota genome. And plotting Ari samples into Vahaduo leaves you with an SSA component similar to Nilotes

Somalis also have components similar to niloties but this is not used as prove that nilotes inhabited hoa rather it's understood to be something acquired in northern sudan. What's more @World stated that the hunter gatherars of somalia are distinct from the inhabitants of ethiopian highland. I wonder do you have a study about hunter gathers in the hoa or somalia that are similar to nilotes? Do you also know of any study that discuses the presence of nilotes like people in the hoa or somalia?