Finland's Basic Income Experiment Has Been A Success

[The alchemist]

 

[AussieHustler]

@The alchemist

Interesting. Now all the economic rationalists will scream ‘Communism’.
Bro, can’t listen to it now, can you summarise? What’s the tax-rate in Finland?

 

[The alchemist]

@The alchemist

Interesting. Now all the economic rationalists will scream ‘Communism’.
Bro, can’t listen to it now, can you summarise? What’s the tax-rate in Finland?

Personal Income Tax Rate in Finland is expected to be 51.60 percent by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations.

All I know is that people don't work less while receiving UBI in Finland, and people are functioning better in society overall.

 

[Kodeen]

Well that was extremely underwhelming. No change from the initial results they published.

 

[AussieHustler]

Personal Income Tax Rate in Finland is expected to be 51.60 percent by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations.

All I know is that people don't work less while receiving UBI in Finland, and people are functioning better in society overall.

@The alchemist

That’s why this kind of social experiment could succeed because of the higher personal tax bracket. Here it’s only 36% and we are having elections next month and the incumbents, the Conservative party are promising to cut the tax threshold to 30% and cut back social services.

In the Finnish ‘Basic wage deal’, how would people be motivated to seek employment if they are getting such generous wages as unemployment benefits? Is there a time limit attached to it?

 

[Kodeen]

@The alchemist

That’s why this kind of social experiment could succeed because of the higher personal tax bracket. Here it’s only 36% and we are having elections next month and the incumbents, the Conservative party are promising to cut the tax threshold to 30% and cut back social services.

In the Finnish ‘Basic wage deal’, how would people be motivated to seek employment if they are getting such generous wages as unemployment benefits? Is there a time limit attached to it?

It works out to only 26-28% of the median income. Even with benefits included, it's still inferior to the average person's earnings. People that are able, and already participate in the workforce wouldn't be deterred by from working. They don't have to choose between work and UBI, they can take both. Which isn't the case for benefits, hence removing incentive to 'abuse' it.

Either way, UBI is inevitable for all countries. Including the unwilling anglosphere

 

[The alchemist]

@The alchemist

That’s why this kind of social experiment could succeed because of the higher personal tax bracket. Here it’s only 36% and we are having elections next month and the incumbents, the Conservative party are promising to cut the tax threshold to 30% and cut back social services.

In the Finnish ‘Basic wage deal’, how would people be motivated to seek employment if they are getting such generous wages as unemployment benefits? Is there a time limit attached to it?

You have a point there.

The evidence shows that people are still motivated to work after getting a basic income. It was a successful experiment for two years where they picked out 2000 random unemployed citizens and gave them 560 euros every month.

"The recipients also reported that they felt more trust toward other people and social institutions -- from political parties to the police to the courts -- than they did before getting a basic income."

"The new findings add to initial results released in February that showed receiving free money made recipients happier without making them any less likely to join the workforce."

People also reported less stress.

 

[Kurolady08]

However, it didn’t have any meaningful effect on the subjects’ employment—compared with a control group, the participants worked an average of 0.4 days more during 2017, and earned an average of €21 ($24) less over the same year. It takes taxes to fund these programs and people will work less.

 

[Kurolady08]

It works out to only 26-28% of the median income. Even with benefits included, it's still inferior to the average person's earnings. People that are able, and already participate in the workforce wouldn't be deterred by from working. They don't have to choose between work and UBI, they can take both. Which isn't the case for benefits, hence removing incentive to 'abuse' it.

Either way, UBI is inevitable for all countries. Including the unwilling anglosphere

Bro, these niglets are lazy as f*ck now. I'm not paying for Tyrone and Honey Boo Boo.

 

[Kurolady08]

You have a point there.

The evidence shows that people are still motivated to work after getting a basic income. It was a successful experiment for two years where they picked out 2000 random unemployed citizens and gave them 560 euros every month.

"The recipients also reported that they felt more trust toward other people and social institutions -- from political parties to the police to the courts -- than they did before getting a basic income."

"The new findings add to initial results released in February that showed receiving free money made recipients happier without making them any less likely to join the workforce."

People also reported less stress.

That would not happen here in Chicago. These mofos just live of the welfare programs and the taxes are high as f*ck. Nothing is free. Everything comes with a price. Why not just NOT tax me out my paycheck!!!!!!!

 

[Basra]

Personal Income Tax Rate in Finland is expected to be 51.60 percent by the end of this quarter, according to Trading Economics global macro models and analysts expectations.

All I know is that people don't work less while receiving UBI in Finland, and people are functioning better in society overall.

52% of personal income tax is too much. I do like giving checks to all citizens monthly tho, this will create a general well being, and people can be creative on what to do with the money!

 

[Molotoff]

This is communism in its purest form. I hope they stop with it Finland and elsewhere.

It is enough as it is with welfare leechers.


Lower the taxes instead, cut immigration to minimal levels, deport immigrants who are criminal and dont wish to integrate. Much better solutions.

 

[Apollo]

This is communism in its purest form. I hope they stop with it Finland and elsewhere.

It is enough as it is with welfare leechers.

In ~40-50 years from now there won't be any jobs for people with IQs under a ~100, which is like 50% of the population, except perhaps nursing but even that is a limited field. What are you going to do with them in your scenario?

The most common high school grad job for men is being a truck diver and that field will be massively automated soon.

UBI is not communism, but still is capitalism 'with a human face'.

 

[The alchemist]

That would not happen here in Chicago. These mofos just live of the welfare programs and the taxes are high as f*ck. Nothing is free. Everything comes with a price. Why not just NOT tax me out my paycheck!!!!!!!

I expected nothing else from a right-wing libertarian.

 

[The alchemist]

In ~40-50 years from now there won't be any jobs for people with IQs under a ~100, which is like 50% of the population, except perhaps nursing but even that is a limited field. What are you going to do with them in your scenario?

The most common high school grad job for men is being a truck diver and that field will be massively automated soon.

UBI is not communism, but still is capitalism 'with a human face'.

You're right. There will be an opportunity for people who help maintain and improve the technology that has replaced much of the industries, but people without those technical skills will not be in demand.

Realistically, UBI is the only way for developed countries to save themselves from much trouble in the future.

 

[Farjano-Walad]

Finland's 'free cash' experiment fails to boost employment

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/08/finland-free-cash-experiment-fails-to-boost-employment

 

[The alchemist]

Finland's 'free cash' experiment fails to boost employment

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/08/finland-free-cash-experiment-fails-to-boost-employment

"But according to the scheme’s chief researcher, Olli Kangas, participants were happier and healthier than the control group. “The basic income recipients of the test group reported better wellbeing in every way (than) the comparison group,” he said."

"Economist Ohto Kanniainen said the low impact on employment was not a surprise, given that many jobless people in Finland have few skills or struggle with difficult life situations or health concerns. “With unemployed people, financial incentives don’t work quite the way some people would expect them to,” he said."

 

[CaliTedesse]

somehow i dont trust this

 

[Apollo]

@Prince Abubu any comment on this? This is your speciality.

 

[Farjano-Walad]

"But according to the scheme’s chief researcher, Olli Kangas, participants were happier and healthier than the control group. “The basic income recipients of the test group reported better wellbeing in every way (than) the comparison group,” he said."

"Economist Ohto Kanniainen said the low impact on employment was not a surprise, given that many jobless people in Finland have few skills or struggle with difficult life situations or health concerns. “With unemployed people, financial incentives don’t work quite the way some people would expect them to,” he said."

surely everyone cannot get this money, if they do who will pay all the taxes? and if john gets it, david will pay, is it fair on david?

its not impactful when a few hundred get paid whilst millions work to pay the tax, but you will never have a situation where everyone is on ubi and if some go on it, well what incentive does the chap working have to work and pay tax whilst others sit on their ass and get his hard working money as their ubi, this is why socialism/communism always fails,

besides, you fail to udnertand the velocity of investment, capital growth comes from savings, savings comes from production, and if all of the poeple are on ubi then who produces, saves, invest to keep economic out put going?

you will most likely not understand the last sentence as its hardcore economics, but in a nut shell,

using Says law,

Say's Law: The Antidote to Countless Economic Fallacies

https://mises.org/wire/says-law-antidote-countless-economic-fallacies

Supply into the marketplace always provides the means for the supplier to purchase other goods

economics has laws just like the laws of gravity, if you can disgaree with says law, then you can change the laws of thermodynamics, until then, lets respect says law,

but tell me, is it fair for david to pay taxes and john to take ubi? if yes, then this is dictatorship and its why the soviets failed, just like other communism nations, and if you agree its fair, then you are saying this law will not work, decide,

the sheer fact i am working creates demand, and if true this creates supply, AKA Says law, if i am not working but taking ubi from davids taxes, then i am not contributing towards supply production, for the seed of my production was created when i sold my goods/services for money, in other words, i cannot demand until i supply a good/service, being a teahcer, accountant, warehouse worker etc leads me to earn money which leads me to supply demand

over come says law and i will belive this UBI nonsense,