Federation or confederation?

[Helios]

Reality in the ground Dhulos all lands are not part of SL, still there is clans part of PL. Warsan lately kick you out from their land and you stick to one village called Yube. Samaroons already are part of you. So 5 gobols will not work unless you have 100% my friend.

Two systems one country. Why would Warsans and Dhulos want PL when they can have their own FMS in the Waqooyi Confederation? Isaaq isn't going to rule them they'll do their own things. I don't want to rule Reer Awdal either


Here this Dhulo guy explains it better than I can

 

[Louis Vuitton Don]

Confederalism

The 5 Waqooyi gobols would be united at a confederal level with the South. If us northerners decide to redraw our gobols then it's fine and we can make our own Waqooyi FMS with separate requirements for membership opposed to the current 2 gobol rule.

That way Dhulos Warsans and Samaroons won't be under Hargeisa's thumb and still enjoy greater autonomy from Xamar too.

This northern system would have the same currency, foreign policy, legal framework and 1/2 of the national army stationed there. Everything else we can decide for ourselves and however you koonfuurians want to divide yourselves isn't our concern.



tldr two parallel federal systems united in a confederacy

That would give the north 2 much power relative to its population. Hargeisa most likely would be the legislative capital in a confederation with south and can tax 10-15% in every gobol in north. And at worst would get PM/Presidency on every rotation.

2 bad the khaat heads don’t have the brains to lobby for that.

 

[SomaliWadaniSoldier]

I prefer Strong Centralism

 

[Removed]

Confederalism

The 5 Waqooyi gobols would be united at a confederal level with the South. If us northerners decide to redraw our gobols then it's fine and we can make our own Waqooyi FMS with separate requirements for membership opposed to the current 2 gobol rule.

That way Dhulos Warsans and Samaroons won't be under Hargeisa's thumb and still enjoy greater autonomy from Xamar too.

This northern system would have the same currency, foreign policy, legal framework and 1/2 of the national army stationed there. Everything else we can decide for ourselves and however you koonfuurians want to divide yourselves isn't our concern.



tldr two parallel federal systems united in a confederacy

You think thats going to happen? Somalis would never accept that if they come back theres no long term special treatment because Somaliland is not deemed lawfully as a seperate country.

Somalilands destiny is to return to Somalia but if they play there cards right maybe they can retain Awdal and expand in Sool.

 

[Removed]

Confederalism is too loose Federalism is fine just make sure it’s strictly followed and that one side doesn’t abuse there power.

 

[SomaliWadaniSoldier]

Federalism and Confederalism is both bad news.
We need One President and governors for the different wilaayaad

 

[Removed]

Federalism and Confederalism is both bad news.
We need One President and governors for the different wilaayaad

I feel like we did that once

I wonder what happened

 

[Helios]

You think thats going to happen? Somalis would never accept that if they come back theres no long term special treatment because Somaliland is not deemed lawfully as a seperate country.

Somalilands destiny is to return to Somalia but if they play there cards right maybe they can retain Awdal and expand in Sool.

If that's the case then we'll bring do a 60s throwback with two Isaaq majority FMS in the Waqooyi

North West State + Togdheer State

I win no matter what

 

[Removed]

If that's the case then we'll bring do a 60s throwback with two Isaaq majority FMS in the Waqooyi

North West State + Togdheer State


View attachment 133085


I win no matter what

Those gobols are already seperated based on 91 borders do you really think that cat will ever get in the bag again?

Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer are still big enough to form a state however and Awdal will always be forced to be apart of the ride. The swing state is Sanaag if Sanaag is won over then Sool will likely join that northern federal state as they have a true hatred for PL.

I see things playing out different though I am almost certain SSC will achieve statehood within the upcoming years I actually support the statehood of Banaadir for that reason without the 13 seats of course.

 

[FarxanFarax223]

Those gobols are already seperated based on 91 borders do you really think that cat will ever get in the bag again?

Waqooyi Galbeed and Togdheer are still big enough to form a state however and Awdal will always be forced to be apart of the ride. The swing state is Sanaag if Sanaag is won over then Sool will likely join that northern federal state as they have a true hatred for PL.

I see things playing out different though I am almost certain SSC will achieve statehood within the upcoming years I actually support the statehood of Banaadir for that reason without the 13 seats of course.

SSC is a fool's pipedream.

 

[Karim]

The difference between the two systems is who's controling who.
In a Confederation system, the federal government is accountable to the member states, who are the ultimate authority. In a Federation, the federal government will hold the ultimate authority and the member states will be subordinate to it.

Strengthening FMS is better for the future of Somalia. Each State needs to uplift its population from poverty and illiteracy.

That being said: we should establish a new capital away from Rer "Unukaa leh" and their lawlessness. They're too emotional for politics.

 

[Galmudug-State]

Only the nobody's with no land are against confederation. This system will make me an my people more powerful an rich. Our resources will be ours and ours alone.

 

[Abaq]

Only the nobody's with no land are against confederation. This system will make me an my people more powerful an rich. Our resources will be ours and ours alone.

Exactly. In a confederacy, Jubbaland will be the richest state by far.

 

[reer]

Exactly. In a confederacy, Jubbaland will be the richest state by far.

beesha jereerweyne stay winning

 

[The_memesiah9]

I favor federation. We need to copy-paste the US federal system. Political parties should bve active across the nation based on political ideology and not clans or warlord futo massaging.

Democracy is a joke. America is a joke too and their politics is just comedy, populism and favoritism. Democracy will never work in Somalia, because of two things, people are uneducated, tribalism is deeprooted into their minds. What we need is Shura/consultation among the knowledgeable scholars

 

[AbdiGeedi]

Democracy is a joke. America is a joke too and their politics is just comedy, populism and favoritism. Democracy will never work in Somalia, because of two things, people are uneducated, tribalism is deeprooted into their minds.

You just described every single country in the world that has controlled democracy. Unfortunately there is no viable alternative to it. The US system has the president as the head of the executive branch which is much better than, for example, the Italian system where the PM is the head of government and falls victim to the coalition fluidity of its parliament resulting in paralyzed government and endless elections. The US system is stronger and suits Somalia much better. If you look at the Middle East, one country that has basically adopted the American presidential system is also the strongest. That country is Turkey. I am telling you the US system is the best.

Please don't discount Somali ingenuity and ability to evolve and adapt. Would you believe that Somalia's political climate would be even remotely close to what it is now if you were transported by the time machine to the 90s? Somalia is on the right track. Once the warlord lizards die out, the new generation of young Somali politicians will make Somalia even better.

f*ck the diaspora instigators who post here day and night their qabil hatred filled calls for violence. The skinny fåggots reside in the West enjoying rights and freedoms and instigate the qabil hatred in Somalia often openly calling for killings.

 

[Jungle's Finest ☔]

I just want Somaliland to be left alone to do it's own thing.

who is holding them back

 

[The_memesiah9]

You just described every single country in the world that has controlled democracy. Unfortunately there is no viable alternative to it. The US system has the president as the head of the executive branch which is much better than, for example, the Italian system where the PM is the head of government and falls victim to the coalition fluidity of its parliament resulting in paralyzed government and endless elections. The US system is stronger and suits Somalia much better. If you look at the Middle East, one country that has basically adopted the American presidential system is also the strongest. That country is Turkey. I am telling you the US system is the best.

Please don't discount Somali ingenuity and ability to evolve and adapt. Would you believe that Somalia's political climate would be even remotely close to what it is now if you were transported by the time machine to the 90s? Somalia is on the right track. Once the warlord lizards die out, the new generation of young Somali politicians will make Somalia even better.

f*ck the diaspora instigators who post here day and night their qabil hatred filled calls for violence. The skinny fåggots reside in the West enjoying rights and freedoms and instigate the qabil hatred in Somalia often openly calling for killings.

Even if it is working in the west, I do not think it will work in Somalia. For many reasons, Somalis are conservative Muslims, tribalism is so deep rooted in the Somali society.

I believe a leader should be elected through Shura/Consultation between Knowledgeable scholars.

and the constitution should be solely be based on the Sharia.

The Sharia is the collection of values and principles derived from the Quran and Sunnah that form the moral, religious, and legal teachings of Islam. It is distinguished from Fiqh (jurisprudence) which is the practical application of those principles in real life. In other words, the Sharia may be called the spirit of the law, while Fiqh may be called the application of the law.

Ibn Al-Qayyim wrote:

فَإِنَّ الشَّرِيعَةَ مَبْنَاهَا وَأَسَاسُهَا عَلَى الْحِكَمِ وَمَصَالِحِ الْعِبَادِ فِي الْمَعَاشِ وَالْمَعَادِ وَهِيَ عَدْلٌ كُلُّهَا وَرَحْمَةٌ كُلُّهَا وَمَصَالِحُ كُلُّهَا وَحِكْمَةٌ كُلُّهَا فَكُلُّ مَسْأَلَةٍ خَرَجَتْ عَنْ الْعَدْلِ إلَى الْجَوْرِ وَعَنْ الرَّحْمَةِ إلَى ضِدِّهَا وَعَنْ الْمَصْلَحَةِ إلَى الْمَفْسَدَةِ وَعَنْ الْحِكْمَةِ إلَى الْبَعْثِ فَلَيْسَتْ مِنْ الشَّرِيعَةِ وَإِنْ أُدْخِلَتْ فِيهَا بِالتَّأْوِيلِ​

Verily, the Sharia is founded upon wisdom and welfare for the servants in this life and the afterlife. In its entirety it is justice, mercy, benefit, and wisdom. Every matter which abandons justice for tyranny, mercy for cruelty, benefit for corruption, and wisdom for foolishness is not a part of the Sharia even if it was introduced therein by an interpretation.
Source: I’lam Al-Muwaqqi’in ‘an Rabb Al-Alamin 11

Ibn Al-Qayyim also wrote:

قَدْ بَيَّنَ سُبْحَانَهُ بِمَا شَرَعَهُ مِنْ الطُّرُقِ أَنَّ مَقْصُودَهُ إقَامَةُ الْعَدْلِ بَيْنَ عِبَادِهِ وَقِيَامُ النَّاسِ بِالْقِسْطِ فَأَيُّ طَرِيقٍ اُسْتُخْرِجَ بِهَا الْعَدْلُ وَالْقِسْطُ فَهِيَ مِنْ الدِّينِ وَلَيْسَتْ مُخَالِفَةً لَهُ
Allah the Exalted has made clear in his law (sharia) that the objective is the establishment of justice between His servants and fairness among the people, so whichever path leads to justice and fairness is part of the religion and can never oppose it.
Source: Turuq Al-Hukmiyyah 13

According to Ibn Al-Qayyim, the values of the Sharia are the following:

1. Justice
2. Mercy
3. Welfare
4. Wisdom

Any Islamic law whose application contradicts these core values cannot be considered the Sharia, even if it is based upon the literal application of some verses of the Quran or the Prophetic traditions.

The Sharia is the divine law embodied in timeless moral values, but Fiqh is the human effort to apply these values to real-life situations.

As for Secularism,

Secularism originated in the West as a reaction to the internecine wars of religion in Europe. Europe developed theocratic governments in which the religious and political institutions were one and the same, thereby corrupting the purity of religious practice. Religion was politicized and this led to fanatical intolerance and persecution for which it was deemed necessary to forcibly separate “the church” and the state.

Islam requires a “soft” separation between the religious scholars and the ruling authorities. Religious scholars should keep a healthy distance and independence from the ruling elite in order to maintain the purity of religious teachings and to prevent themselves from being corrupted by the ambitions of power.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

وَمَنْ أَتَى أَبْوَابَ السُّلْطَانِ افْتُتِنَ وَمَا ازْدَادَ عَبْدٌ مِنْ السُّلْطَانِ قُرْبًا إِلَّا ازْدَادَ مِنْ اللَّهِ بُعْدًا
Whoever goes to the gates of the ruler will endure tribulation. A servant does not move closer to the ruler except that he moves further away from Allah.
Source: Musnad Ahmad 8619, Grade: Sahih

Sa’eed ibn Al-Musayyib, may Allah have mercy on him, said:

إذَا رَأَيْتُمْ الْعَالِمَ يَغْشَى الْأُمَرَاءَ فَاحْذَرُوا مِنْهُ فَإِنَّهُ لِصٌّ
If you see a religious scholar frequently visiting the rulers, then beware of him for he is a thief.
Source: Al-Adab Ash-Shar’iya 477

This kind of “soft” separation is in contrast to a “hard” separation, such as the French political model, in which religion is marginalized and excluded from public and political life. Rather, the religion should have a positive influence on the politics of a Muslim country but religious scholars should remain independent in order to provide an important check on state power.

Ibn Abdul Barr writes:

وَقَالُوا شَرُّ الأُمَرَاءِ أَبْعَدُهُمْ مِنَ الْعُلَمَاءِ وَشَرُّ الْعُلَمَاءِ أَقْرَبُهُمْ مِنَ الأُمَرَاءِ
It is said that the worst rulers are far from the scholars and the worst scholars are near to the rulers.
Source: Jami’ Bayan Al-‘Ilm 727

 

[Malikfiqi]

Exactly. In a confederacy, Jubbaland will be the richest state by far.

What is jubbaland now, and why would
It be any different under a confederacy. It’s still dependent on international aid and haS UNESEF and other food organizations feeding your own people just like every other “land” but alas there can be no centralization without tribalism and a somalia without tribalism is impossible but as a unionist at heart I can only dream

 

[Som]

Federations require something that Somalia lacks which is a strong central government. On the other hand confederations are usually unions of independent states.
Let's keep it real, the only reason we have federalism is because the federal government doesn't control anything except Xamar. All true federal countries like the US or Germany have a stable central government that allows states to manage their own affairs. In somalia the FGS isn't allowing shit cause federal states can do whatever they want anyway. This is not federalism , it's anarchy.
PL has it's own foreign policy, immagine if California or Texas had their own foreign policy agendas in opposition to the US federal government, it would be crazy.
Before even discussing about federalism or confederalism somalia needs to become a stable country with a stable central government.