Expansionist Culture

[Saleh]

hose screenshots literally support what I said. They even state that Somalis “began to cross in small numbers” and expanded through the sheegad system which, by the way, is a Somali institution, not an Oromo one. Somalis were already present north of the Juba, and had relations with the Oromo on the south side before any major raids or expansions even began.

you are trying to make it seem those small gradual migration into oromo territory was apart of some grand scheme to eventually conquer the land which is not true, those migrations were unrelated to the later conquest which took place.

And let’s clarify: the Bardheere Sultans were not Garre. They led a coalition of Somali clans under the leadership of shaykhs, engaging in military campaigns and frequently joined by other Somali groups. These were coordinated operations, not isolated clan-based actions.

i never said the baradheere sultans were garre, i mentioned garre because garre were the people warring with oromo the most along the jubba before the 1860s because they shared a border.

As for the Darood, yes they were involved, but it wasn’t a ''Darood only'' expansion. It was a multi-clan movement, once again rooted in the sheegad system, which allowed various clans to unify under a shared agenda.

I only mention darood because they made up the overwhelming majority of the conquest, not because I want to give them credit or anything.

In the mid to late 19th century there were massive migrations of darood to jubbaland, Ogaden from the west and harti from the north, this was around the same time kismayo was established. This is important because they were responsible for the rifles importer which accelerated the conquest which they got through their connections to Said barqash the sultan of Zanzibar. Yes other clans took part but it was mostly darood and they took share in most of the spoils we can see this by who today is most established south of the jubba.

it was also strategically structured and economically driven. Different clans were brought in for different roles: some to develop coastal trade, others to control the caravan routes, some to utilize grazing lands, establish interior markets, and others to develop farmland and agriculture.

Another lie there was not some grand conquest that was planned over the course of decades. Somalis were clients of the Oromo south of the jubba, a previous war between the garre and Oromo established borders which they respected and only crossed over in small numbers. small pox hit and killed a lot of their livestock and the Oromos experience famine, Somalis capitalized on this and raided them, that is the story

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Nothing wrong with expansion especially in the Middle Ages. Wish Somalis would have took all of Kenya before colonialism.

Our neighbors were too primitive to conquer no benefit, we just either looted them or captured them

Only ahmed took on the gigantic task of conquering abyssinia

 

[Barkhadle1520]

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Ive always said the day abiy gets deposed it will be the worst day for them, amxaro will definitely take back addis and keep pushing, taking revenge for the half century of xasuq oromos did to them

 

[Barkhadle1520]

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Most of harar is oromo now and they form up gangs targeting "adari" hararis

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Try not to obsess over Oromos challenge.
Level : Impossible.

Its not like theyre some random people on the other side of the continent, theyre our historical cadow

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Both Somalis and Oromos are expansionists. Many Somalis on here brag of the famed conquest of jubbaland where Somalis expanded south of the Jubba river expelling Oromos to northern Kenya. Nomadic people are expansionists, Bedouin arabs do the same

That was not expansionism, that was a reconquest Somalis lived in Juba and had a kingdom and civilization there before Oromo invasions, the reconquest on the juba actually saved koonfur somalis big W

 

[Barkhadle1520]

you are trying to make it seem those small gradual migration into oromo territory was apart of some grand scheme to eventually conquer the land which is not true, those migrations were unrelated to the later conquest which took place.

i never said the baradheere sultans were garre, i mentioned garre because garre were the people warring with oromo the most along the jubba before the 1860s because they shared a border.

I only mention darood because they made up the overwhelming majority of the conquest, not because I want to give them credit or anything. View attachment 366417In the mid to late 19th century there were massive migrations of darood to jubbaland, Ogaden from the west and harti from the north, this was around the same time kismayo was established. This is important because they were responsible for the rifles importer which accelerated the conquest which they got through their connections to Said barqash the sultan of Zanzibar. Yes other clans took part but it was mostly darood and they took share in most of the spoils we can see this by who today is most established south of the jubba.

Another lie there was not some grand conquest that was planned over the course of decades. Somalis were clients of the Oromo south of the jubba, a previous war between the garre and Oromo established borders which they respected and only crossed over in small numbers. small pox hit and killed a lot of their livestock and the Oromos experience famine, Somalis capitalized on this and raided them, that is the storyView attachment 366419

learn to put a spoiler

 

[Rayaale]

Both Somalis and Oromos are expansionists. Many Somalis on here brag of the famed conquest of jubbaland where Somalis expanded south of the Jubba river expelling Oromos to northern Kenya. Nomadic people are expansionists, Bedouin arabs do the same

That was an expansion by the daroods(Ogaden and marehan), other ethnic somalis like the garre,tunni, rahanwein, degodia always lived in the south before the Oromo expansion

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Comparing Somalis land gains over time to the devastating Oromo expansions is so disingenuous. They are not at all comparable.

Somalis before Oromo invasions had insanely huge lands, everything east of awash down south to bali and going all the way to Juba was ours, how can we be expansionist when we owned that shit ??

 

[Rayaale]

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[Barkhadle1520]

Those screenshots literally support what I said. They even state that Somalis “began to cross in small numbers” and expanded through the sheegad system which, by the way, is a Somali institution, not an Oromo one. Somalis were already present north of the Juba, and had relations with the Oromo on the south side before any major raids or expansions even began.

Literally says ''began to cross in Small numbers.. gradually absorbing external aggregates through the sheegad system as they needed new elements to strenghten their position.

The Bardheere Sultans had established amicable relations with the Oromo south of the river prior to launching any military operations in that region.

Once across, they began steadily building up their numbers and resources. And again, the concept of sheegad is Somali it’s a Somali clan system for incorporating outsiders or individuals without a strong clan base. It's not an Oromo system. Most Somalis had retreated north during the Oromo expansion in the 1600s, leaving behind a small number who were later joined by a steady influx of newcomers.

And let’s clarify: the Bardheere Sultans were not Garre. They led a coalition of Somali clans under the leadership of shaykhs, engaging in military campaigns and frequently joined by other Somali groups. These were coordinated operations, not isolated clan-based actions.


As for the Darood, yes they were involved, but it wasn’t a ''Darood only'' expansion. It was a multi-clan movement, once again rooted in the sheegad system, which allowed various clans to unify under a shared agenda.

This is even acknowledged in one of the reports:
''Yet the Somalis of various tribes and sub-tribes cooperated at the expense of non-Somalis"

View attachment 366413

The idea that the first to cross were exclusively Darood is misleading. In fact, the sources themselves admit that it's difficult to pinpoint exactly 'who'' the first-comers were.


''It's is not easy to determine the precise identity of these first-comers, for as so often happened , the Somalis when faced with the possibility of effective opposition tended to abandon for the the moment their tribal individualities and by submitting themselves for the nonce to the temporary sovereignity of the most influential tribe amongst them, to acquire a unity they would not otherwise have been able to command"

And further:

''In this way numbers of Hawiyah as well as Ogaden, in undertaking the nex great move westwards, groupwed themselves under the banner of the Mohamed Zubeir.. All that one can safely say is that the first-comers were either Mohamed Zubeir or Shegats of the Mohamed Zubeir or were Ogaden or were Hawiyah or even Harti passing themselves off as Mohamed Zubeir."


View attachment 366414

So not only was this expansion multi-clan, but it was also strategically structured and economically driven. Different clans were brought in for different roles: some to develop coastal trade, others to control the caravan routes, some to utilize grazing lands, establish interior markets, and others to develop farmland and agriculture.

It was actually Bardheere who started the offensive and called for Jihad

 

[Barkhadle1520]

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Oromos wouldnt be a problem in the modern world when theyre not given positions of power, siad used them like pawns in 77 waa aadhi

 

[Barkhadle1520]

That was an expansion by the daroods(Ogaden and marehan), other ethnic somalis like the garre,tunni, rahanwein, degodia always lived in the south before the Oromo expansion

Dont forget that other Somalis came in and settled the vast lands like Ajuran, some ajuran even claim they lived there before oromos chased them out in the 16th century

 

[Rayaale]

Dont forget that other Somalis came in and settled the vast lands like Ajuran, some ajuran even claim they lived there before oromos chased them out in the 16th century

Exactly, Ajuuran and degodia as of today live in Northern Kenya, they were pushed out by the Oromos who found them in jubba region, it was only in the 19th century when it was reconquered by the incoming Ogaden and marehan

 

[Idilinaa]

you are trying to make it seem those small gradual migration into oromo territory was apart of some grand scheme to eventually conquer the land which is not true, those migrations were unrelated to the later conquest which took place.


i never said the baradheere sultans were garre, i mentioned garre because garre were the people warring with oromo the most along the jubba before the 1860s because they shared a border.

I only mention darood because they made up the overwhelming majority of the conquest, not because I want to give them credit or anything. View attachment 366417In the mid to late 19th century there were massive migrations of darood to jubbaland, Ogaden from the west and harti from the north, this was around the same time kismayo was established. This is important because they were responsible for the rifles importer which accelerated the conquest which they got through their connections to Said barqash the sultan of Zanzibar. Yes other clans took part but it was mostly darood and they took share in most of the spoils we can see this by who today is most established south of the jubba.

Another lie there was not some grand conquest that was planned over the course of decades. Somalis were clients of the Oromo south of the jubba, a previous war between the garre and Oromo established borders which they respected and only crossed over in small numbers. small pox hit and killed a lot of their livestock and the Oromos experience famine, Somalis capitalized on this and raided them, that is the storyView attachment 366419

It was originally Somali territory. There were already Somalis living on the southern side of the Juba, and although they were smaller in number, they were strengthened by the newcomers who crossed the river and joined them through sheegad alliances.

Being “clients” doesn’t mean they were subservient, it means there were commercial and cooperative relations, especially in grazing and trade. That was the state of affairs prior to the conquest.

A grand scheme? Unrelated? Lmaoo the Bardheere Sultans literally called for Jihaad, and this did not begin in 1860. It began as early as 1836 and continued through the 1890s.

How can you say it began in 1860 when Somalis had already crossed into the region in the 1830s?

Also, various southern Raxaweyn clans, especially those connected to the walled city of Luuq and Bardere, defeated the Wardai/Oromo/Boran, pushing them further south and westwards.

At. At this point, the Ogaden were already assisting them, further evidence that this was a coalition of Somali clans, not just one group acting in isolation.

To reinforce the multi-clanal dimension, it wasn’t just Ogaden/Darood working with Raxanweyn. During the conquest, they also sought assistance from coastal clans, including those from the Benadir region.

When the war reached as far as the Tana River, this continued:

You mention “small gradual migrations” but this was an organized military campaign, not a passive trickle. These were war operations that involved transporting large numbers of Somalis overland, many of whom were mobilized specifically for this campaign.

By 1889, Oromos were fleeing ahead of the incoming Somali forces, seeking refuge with the Witu Sultans:

''In turn, there was no milk to be had in Witu on the day of the Somalis' arrival because the Oromo, "notwithstanding that they were under the protection of the Sultan, had fled in panic terror into the woods, with their herds, before the Somalis." These Somalis were part of a group which had carried on war expeditions even across the Tana. Peters wisely made a treaty of peace with Sharif Hussein.''

They would attack various positions even the European stations where they had Oromos and others under their protection.

''Somalis attack on an East African Mission station"

So again, this was a structured conquest, not an opportunistic skirmish.

can you provide evidence that somalis lived south of webi jubba before 1861? Because I have provided both oral and written accounts describing the events which took place

There is an entire recent study on it that southern Somali speakers lived all the way down to Tana River.

https://langsci-press.org/catalog/view/192/1510/1623-1

It actually futher strenghtens E.R Turtons own research and reconstruction of local histories

Bantu, Galla and Somali Migrations in the Horn of Africa: A Reassessment of the Juba/Tana Area on JSTOR

E. R. Turton, Bantu, Galla and Somali Migrations in the Horn of Africa: A Reassessment of the Juba/Tana Area, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4 (1975), pp. 519-537

www.jstor.org

The first and most startling feature of this outline is that the Somali preceded the Galla in the Juba/Tana region, for pre-Hawiya Garre moved to Afmadu and the area to the south prior to the migration of the Orma to the coast. This of course places the nineteenth-century Somali advance southward across the river Juba into an altogether different perspective, since it can now be seen as partly a reconquest of lands they had previously held

 

[Barkhadle1520]

It was originally Somali territory. There were already Somalis living on the southern side of the Juba, and although they were smaller in number, they were strengthened by the newcomers who crossed the river and joined them through sheegad alliances.

Being “clients” doesn’t mean they were subservient, it means there were commercial and cooperative relations, especially in grazing and trade. That was the state of affairs prior to the conquest.

A grand scheme? Unrelated? Lmaoo the Bardheere Sultans literally called for Jihaad, and this did not begin in 1860. It began as early as 1836 and continued through the 1890s.
View attachment 366432

How can you say it began in 1860 when Somalis had already crossed into the region in the 1830s?
View attachment 366435

Also, various southern Raxaweyn tribes, especially those connected to the walled city of Luuq and Bardere, defeated the Wardai/Oromo/Boran, pushing them further south and westwards.
View attachment 366438

At. At this point, the Ogaden were already assisting them, further evidence that this was a coalition of Somali clans, not just one group acting in isolation.
View attachment 366437


To reinforce the multi-clanal dimension, it wasn’t just Ogaden/Darood working with Raxanweyn. During the conquest, they also sought assistance from coastal clans, including those from the Benadir region.

When the war reached as far as the Tana River, this continued:

View attachment 366426


You mention “small gradual migrations” but this was an organized military campaign, not a passive trickle. These were war operations that involved transporting large numbers of Somalis overland, many of whom were mobilized specifically for this campaign.

View attachment 366422


By 1889, Oromos were fleeing ahead of the incoming Somali forces, seeking refuge with the Witu Sultans:

''In turn, there was no milk to be had in Witu on the day of the Somalis' arrival because the Oromo, "notwithstanding that they were under the protection of the Sultan, had fled in panic terror into the woods, with their herds, before the Somalis." These Somalis were part of a group which had carried on war expeditions even across the Tana. Peters wisely made a treaty of peace with Sharif Hussein.''
View attachment 366423

They would attack various positions even the European stations where they had Oromos and others under their protection.

''Somalis attack on an East African Mission station"
View attachment 366427


So again, this was a structured conquest, not an opportunistic skirmish.



There is an entire recent study on it that southern Somali speakers lived all the way down to Tana River.

https://langsci-press.org/catalog/view/192/1510/1623-1

View attachment 366421



It actually futher strenghtens E.R Turtons own research and reconstruction of local histories

Bantu, Galla and Somali Migrations in the Horn of Africa: A Reassessment of the Juba/Tana Area on JSTOR

E. R. Turton, Bantu, Galla and Somali Migrations in the Horn of Africa: A Reassessment of the Juba/Tana Area, The Journal of African History, Vol. 16, No. 4 (1975), pp. 519-537

www.jstor.org

The first and most startling feature of this outline is that the Somali preceded the Galla in the Juba/Tana region, for pre-Hawiya Garre moved to Afmadu and the area to the south prior to the migration of the Orma to
the coast. This of course places the nineteenth-century Somali advance
southward across the river Juba into an altogether different perspective,
since it can now be seen as partly a reconquest of lands they had previously held
View attachment 366428

I think it was more mutual than anything, Mx and Og could never possibly effectively occupy all that land by themselves, isaaq merchants and coastal clans would also buy the oromo captives from them

win win relationship

 

[Idilinaa]

I think it was more mutual than anything, Mx and Og could never possibly effectively occupy all that land by themselves, isaaq merchants and coastal clans would also buy the oromo captives from them

win win relationship

You are right. It was commercially driven and cooperative.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

You are right. It was commercially driven and cooperative.

Did you find the harla thing

 

[Idilinaa]

Did you find the harla thing

No , so i think i will send him an email later on this week.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

No , so i think i will send him an email later on this week.

great do it, that stuff would be ground breaking