Earliest mention of Somali

[Emir of Zayla]

Yeah we just happened to be formed by mixing everyone into one and have our own distinct language. You sound like an atheist that says the universe started with a boom. My post wasn’t suugo science, in fact it was much more logical than whatever you proposed. I’m sorry the Harari language is so small it isn’t documented in detail.

The Harari “language” is most likely a distinct dialect of Argobba, who are Muslims and migrated into Harar fleeing war.

Harar is so different from the rest of Somalia in culture and language (and the only city in the whole region) that existed for a long time outside of Mogadishu.

This is completely laughable considering there isn’t anything distinct about Harar from the rest of Greater Somalia. In 1814, it was said that Somalis make up the majority of the city’s population. And there are a dozen towns that I can name off the top of my head that date back farther than Harar.

Hararis are older than 1500s as is evident with our language and our way of life. And a matter of fact, they did find Chinese coins in the farms nearby Harar so that’s kind of a coincidence?

Harari is a city identity much like Adeni (inhabitants from a city in Yemen). You can come from diverse backgrounds like Somali, Arab or what-have-you but in the city you’re all under one identity, same for Harar as it is for Aden.

 

[oogabooga]

I highly doubt this, prove it by linking a Harari dictionary and screenshotting each of the definitions of these words.

Here is the word sani shown in the image below, found in the Harari-Oromo-Amharic dictionary. Below it is sani’ and sani’ toya. Link provided right here: https://www.dirzon.com/Doc/ReaderAsync?target=telegram:Harari Oromo Amharic_Dictionary.pdf

Wassañ I couldn’t find in the dictionary, but I’ve literally heard it used before. So I don’t have textual evidence in that regard.

 

[oogabooga]

The Harari “language” is most likely a distinct dialect of Argobba, who are Muslims and migrated into Harar fleeing war.

Yes Harari language and Argobba language are classed together, but the way you pieced it up is pure hypothesis. Argobba were only documented coming to Harar after being persecuted by the Abysinnians much later after the Emirate of Harar was formed.

This is completely laughable considering there isn’t anything distinct about Harar from the rest of Greater Somalia. In 1814, it was said that Somalis make up the majority of the city’s population. And there are a dozen towns that I can name off the top of my head that date back farther than Harar.

Yes there is, its agricultural-sedentary lifestyle is unique to the Horn of Africa actually. Agriculture is the foundation of harari society. No other town in the Horn had such blend. Somali towns didn’t partake in agriculture, they were all trade towns. Name me any town like Harar in the old lands of Adal.

Harari is a city identity much like Adeni (inhabitants from a city in Yemen). You can come from diverse backgrounds like Somali, Arab or what-have-you but in the city you’re all under one identity, same for Harar as it is for Aden.

the foreign blood stuff is overblown, most of the foreign blood came in one small time period of the Egyptians. Other than that, it’s just Harari descent.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

Here is the word sani shown in the image below, found in the Harari-Oromo-Amharic dictionary. Below it is sani’ and sani’ toya. Link provided right here: https://www.dirzon.com/Doc/ReaderAsync?target=telegram:Harari Oromo Amharic_Dictionary.pdf

Wassañ I couldn’t find in the dictionary, but I’ve literally heard it used before. So I don’t have textual evidence in that regard.

I’m confused, you sent a screenshot of a different word than San or Wassan?

 

[oogabooga]

I’m confused, you sent a screenshot of a different word than San or Wassan?
View attachment 338761

No that one I pointed at is Sani. Wassan was not on that dictionary.

 

[oogabooga]

Here

 

[Emir of Zayla]

Yes there is, its agricultural-sedentary lifestyle is unique to the Horn of Africa actually. Agriculture is the foundation of harari society. No other town in the Horn had such blend. Somali towns didn’t partake in agriculture, they were all trade towns. Name me any town like Harar in the old lands of Adal.

Northern Somalia had medieval towns that practiced terraced farming, agriculture really isn’t anything distinct as you’re making it out to be.

the foreign blood stuff is overblown, most of the foreign blood came in one small time period of the Egyptians. Other than that, it’s just Harari descent.

You speak of it as if it’s an ethnicity with distinct genetics from its neighbors, it’s really not. I have seen Hararis get Somali, Oromo, Habeshi and a mixture of different regional ethnicities.

 

[Yami]

That’s goofy, that text doesn’t say Somali or Samale. It’s clearly pronounced Sān Malan, the same way they pronounced Zeila correctly. Sān is the Harari root word of the following words: Sāni (which means “straight”), wassāñ (which means “select(as an adjective)/special” like “wassan usu” meaning select people/select few), and Sāñi (which means “ironsmith”). My guess is that Sān is a metal. Malan is a noun version of the word Mala’a (another example is hegana which means to replace). So San Malan would mean “the metal-filled kingdom” referring to the metalworking nature of the kingdom. Makes sense as the old Harla ruins found metalworking workshops present as well metal mines. Even places like Sim in Futuh are tied to metals in the Harari language, as is the case with Simmet (figurately meaning “something of value” but literally meaning “the silver of Sim”). Lots of old Harari words are lost but their remains still exist.

Your niggas were in the middle of Ethiopia during the 10th century so quit it with the misinformation. Harari kingdom on coastal Somaliland loool its giving oromo expansionist

 

[oogabooga]

Northern Somalia had medieval towns that practiced terraced farming, agriculture really isn’t anything distinct as you’re making it out to be.

I was referring to any towns like harar that survived amongst the Somalis in northern Somalia that practice the farming mentioned in that text below.

You speak of it as if it’s an ethnicity with distinct genetics from its neighbors, it’s really not. I have seen Hararis get Somali, Oromo, Habeshi and a mixture of different regional ethnicities.

I don’t see anyone understanding the Harari language. Clearly it is its own ethnicity. Ethnicity means having your own distinct language, way of life, and genetics. Hararis fit those three categories. I did my own 23andMe too, I’m from an Arab family in harar yet still I have 90% pure Harari blood. 10% of my blood is foreign. This seems to be the case for most of my 23andMe relatives. You are acting like having 10% means we are hybrids.

 

[oogabooga]

Your niggas were in the middle of Ethiopia during the 10th century so quit it with the misinformation. Harari kingdom on coastal Somaliland loool its giving oromo expansionist

 

[Yami]

This where at east half your genetic ancestors were chilling in during that time period

 

[oogabooga]

This where at east half your genetic ancestors were chilling in during that time period

View attachment 338769

When you have zero proof and just start yapping XD

 

[Emir of Zayla]

I was referring to any towns like harar that survived amongst the Somalis in northern Somalia that practice the farming mentioned in that text below.

You literally asked for agricultural/farming towns in Adal and I gave you the source, now shoo.


@oogabooga You claim your people to have built Harar, please provide concrete credible evidence of your presence in the medieval period in Harar.

This is my source written in 2023 after recent studies were done in Ethiopia. The current population of Hararis have zero connection to Harar of the 16th century.

La Conquête de l'Éthiopie - Un jihad au XVIe siècle

L'histoire médiévale et moderne de l'Éthiopie et de sa région a longtemps été écrite en prenant pour source et pour cadre la tradition scripturaire des moines orthodoxes : celle d'un royaume chrétien dont les origines légendaires remonteraient au roi Salomon et à la reine de Saba. En plaçant au...

books.google.com

 

[Idilinaa]

The Proper ''Soomaal'' the name itself wasn't recorded until the Futuh (maybe it existed in older internal sources), but a pronunciation of it Semur/Simur was first mentioned in the Yeshaq poem who mentions it along side other clan names.

From it's earliest usage we can see that it wasn't an ethnic or a regional name , it was an local occupational name Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins , so it explains the total absence of it in external sources by visitors despite the fact that they described Somalis in other ways that are recognizable

So i doubt Chinese who had no internal access to local names and breifly stopped at port towns would have mentioned it.

Harari didn't exist until after the Futuh when Nur ibn Mujahid built the walls of Harar in the late 1500s get this goofy suugo science off my screen warya

It's a no brainer why there is no mention of a Harari people in any of the medieval sources including Futuh.

Because Somalis never name themselves after towns, cities or settlements, there is no Zaylawis, Berberans , bosasan , mercans, luuqians, hobadians, the Mogadishans, Maydhians, Barians etc. There is no single group exclusively named from a toponym , instead you have usually ''Reer'' in front of it to indicate it ''The family from/of this''.

but Habeshas are different they will come down from other areas and appropriate the name/toponym of a place despite having zero locality or historical ties to it.

Researchers saw this with Argobba.

Alright I found some Chinese sources dating to the 9th and 12th century respectively that mention a place called "Popali" and "Pipalo" which may very well be the Chinese pronunciation of Barbari, the premodern name for Somalis. Judging from the description of the region, it fits well with Somalia

View attachment 338752

View attachment 338753

I don't think popali in the 9th century is Somalia, i mentioned this before in a different thread: They are lumping two seperate unrelated descriptions into one in those texts.

I've seen it , its not speaking of Somalia in the 800CE and 1060 based on it. They are talking about tribes from the far deep Southern East African Coast.

It was covered in this blog post some years back

800 CE Po-pa-li is not Somalia but 1100 CE Pi-pa-lo is?​

Anthromadness

anthromadness.blogspot.com

It seems the author the above text comes from believes this to correspond with the Greek's more southerly "Barbaroi" region (North-Central Somalia) rather than, like some authors, tying it simply to the settlement of Berbera in particular. And honestly, after giving this a good read, it does not seem to be to be a description of people from North-Central Somalia during the 700-800s CE for the following reasons:

This is all makes me think "Po-pa-li" was a region farther south of the Horn of Africa or perhaps even far south into Southern Somalia rather than at all indicating that what we're reading about is a predecessor to modern Berbera or North-Central Somalia as a whole.

The Po-pa-li of 1100 is actually talking about Somalia. And the descriptions of it lines up with the economy, and the geography of the region. To an incredible accuracy.
Let's take into account all of the things this country has together all at once:

• Abundance of pastoralist livestock such as camels, goats, sheep and cattle.
• A people with a mainly pastoral diet which consists of meat and milk with "cakes" on top (perhaps their way of referring to something like Canjeero/Laxoox/Injera?).
• Presence of Rhinos, Elephants, Giraffes, Ostriches and what sound to possibly be Somali Wild Asses ("mule" with black, white and brown stripes on it).
• There is Myrrh and Ambergris in this country.
• Some semblance of pre-modern urbanism was to be found (four prominent cities/towns are mentioned by the Chinese source).
• The people "worship heaven" which, I suppose, would refer to a heavenly God which fits with the worship of Allah by Muslims and, oddly, even the worship of the Sky-God Waaq [3].

The Somali coast, or what Medieval Arab/Islamic sources knew as "Bilad al-Barbar" (Somali coast roughly from Zeila down to Mogadishu or areas somewhat south of Mogadishu like the mouth of the Jubba river) is perhaps the only place on the East African coast where all of these things can be found together.

For example, the Eritrean coast once had some Rhinos present and, to this day, has several semi-nomadic pastoralist peoples who herd camels, sheep, goats and cattle present on its coast whilst having, to this day, a small Elephant population but it didn't have Giraffes.

They also make it clear in the 1100 and other ones that Somalis did not enslave each-other but acted as middlemen and that it being transit place for slaves coming from the deeper swahili south.

But this is one is an awsome find though it actually mentions Zayla as the center in the 8th century.

Nothing magical really. All i did is using search alongside google translate and bit of intuition.
Here is the first link.

Li shi xue

www.google.se

Text says

早在八世纪,中国已和泽拉港通航,当时在贾耽( 730 年— 805 年)记录的航线中叫三兰国,被当作印度洋西部地区中国帆船航线最南的终点港。所以三麻兰国的中心是泽拉。

Translation:



Romanization of the kingdom.

三麻兰国的中心是泽拉。

Sān má lán guó de zhōngxīn shì zé lā.

The center of the Sammaran/sammalan Kingdom is Zela.

They even detail trade expeditions of Merchants of Zela visiting Guangzhou. Great stuff.

 

[Idilinaa]

You literally asked for agricultural/farming towns in Adal and I gave you the source, now shoo.

A description of farming villages can be found by Al-Omari during the 1300s and he even describes them using Somali farming calendar terms

Somali calender terms for the seasons.

@oogabooga You claim your people to have built Harar, please provide concrete credible evidence of your presence in the medieval period in Harar.

This is my source written in 2023 after recent studies were done in Ethiopia. The current population of Hararis have zero connection to Harar of the 16th century.View attachment 338775

La Conquête de l'Éthiopie - Un jihad au XVIe siècle

L'histoire médiévale et moderne de l'Éthiopie et de sa région a longtemps été écrite en prenant pour source et pour cadre la tradition scripturaire des moines orthodoxes : celle d'un royaume chrétien dont les origines légendaires remonteraient au roi Salomon et à la reine de Saba. En plaçant au...

books.google.com

I read that source from that french writer, she is very confused throughout it.

In one of the passages that made me giigle is how she sees farming communities described as Qabilah or Clan in Zarba but ponders how, thinking its only a clan structure is exclusive feature of nomadic tribes.

Not comprehending that Both Sedentary agricultural, urban and nomadic Somalis are grouped into clan structure

Went over it here with Richard Burton's descriptions of Somali farming communities around Harar:

Even in Futuh you can clearly see that Harla is just a Qabil and not an ethnicity. When they are mentioned alongside other clans , for example in this passage

Unless you also want to believe that Habr Maqdi and Geri are ethnicities also. You can't make any other sense of it.

Anyone positing that they are ethio-semetic will have hard time arguing that point. There is no ethio-semetic group divided into somali sub-clan structure . Not even the harari. Did they just delete the sub-clans that are mentioned in Futuh?


Harla and the other sedentary clans mentioned in Futuh are described as:
- As being joint led by 1 Sultan
- Harla is led by a Sultan/Leader from another tribe Zarba and not their own.

- ''Soomals''(Bedouin) clans are led each by their own independent Emirs.

This is exactly the same way in which Richard Burton explains the distinction between Sedentary Somali clans and Nomadic/Bedouin clans in the same area nearly 400 years later.

You can also read more about the Sedentary Raxanweyn forms of clanship here which is similar to the western clans: Rahanweyn Sociability: A Model for Other Somalis?

Rahanweyn Sociability: A Model for Other Somalis? on JSTOR

Bernhard Helander, Rahanweyn Sociability: A Model for Other Somalis?, African Languages and Cultures. Supplement, No. 3, Voice and Power: The Culture of Language in North-East Africa. Essays in Honour of B. W. Andrzejewski (1996), pp. 195-204

www.jstor.org

She is also confused about the usage of the title Sultan, much like Garaad does not exactly mean they were independent but it was most likely worn by a clan leader.

The marriage ties are regular diplomacy amongst Somalis, we marry into other clans to draw alliances and also as a way of economic dependence. That's why you have a lot ''Bah'' clans born out of those unions.


There is a lot of corrections that can be made to that source.

 

[oogabooga]

You literally asked for agricultural/farming towns in Adal and I gave you the source, now shoo.

clearly there are no urban areas in modern day Northern Somalia that have an extensive agricultural base, hence you had to resort to medieval towns of which we don’t even know were inhabited by Somalis. Typically one can make the connection if there was any remnant of that agricultural-sedentary lifestyle, but there isn’t. Those towns you showed the source for were probably inhabited by the ancestors of the Harari.

@oogabooga You claim your people to have built Harar, please provide concrete credible evidence of your presence in the medieval period in Harar.

um… sir we have been living there for centuries what is there to explain, we have land deeds going back hundreds of years, we have our way of farming and sedentary lifestyle. The Harari urban culture is so developed that every detail of the home’s design has meaning and it’s unique. The nadaba gar is a unique staple of a harari home, and has been found in the ruins nearby Harar like Afeyzaro. Somalis have nothing that compared to the harari way of life, that’s what I mean when I say harar is not like Somalia. The burden of proof is on you for claiming Somalis built harar but magically disappeared from it.

This is my source written in 2023 after recent studies were done in Ethiopia. The current population of Hararis have zero connection to Harar of the 16th century.

Amelie is confused, saying on one hand that the harari inhabitants speak their own language but on the other hand saying there are no links to the inhabitants of 16th century. That’s because the remains of the 16th century people is yet to be discovered. Hararis are only found in one town and the population that Amelie is trying to connect it to mostly went extinct. But as more archeology is done like in Afeyzaro where they found old antique versions of a Harari home, we will be able to determine that link. However the Somali people is still intact, yet there are little to no links of the Somali people to the Harari people. Same reason why there is no link between those medieval towns in northern Somalia and somalis; because it’s probable Somalis didn’t inhabit them.

 

[oogabooga]

The Proper ''Soomaal'' the name itself wasn't recorded until the Futuh (maybe it existed in older internal sources), but a pronunciation of it Semur/Simur was first mentioned in the Yeshaq poem who mentions it along side other clan names.

Hararis call Somalis “Tumur” FYI.

From it's earliest usage we can see that it wasn't an ethnic or a regional name , it was an local occupational name Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins , so it explains the total absence of it in external sources by visitors despite the fact that they described Somalis in other ways that are recognizable

not really, Somalis probably came up with the word Soomal to refer to their way of life. Because Hararis have been calling all Somalis “Tumur”. Tumur wasn’t an occupational class the same way we called Oromos “Argata”. That also wasn’t an occupational class. Soomal was the way your people chose to name themselves because that is what they valued.

It's a no brainer why there is no mention of a Harari people in any of the medieval sources including Futuh.

Because Somalis never name themselves after towns, cities or settlements, there is no Zaylawis, Berberans , bosasan , mercans, luuqians, hobadians, the Mogadishans, Maydhians, Barians etc. There is no single group exclusively named from a toponym , instead you have usually ''Reer'' in front of it to indicate it ''The family from/of this''.

but Habeshas are different they will come down from other areas and appropriate the name/toponym of a place despite having zero locality or historical ties to it.

Researchers saw this with Argobba.

No it’s because before the Oromo migrations we used to be in multiple cities. We literally have Harari manuscripts that talked about these events. Harari bookbinding was a specialty with even Richard Burton rivaling it with only Persia. The Harari manuscripts talked about the huge population upheaval and famine the Oromo migrations caused, and how at the end only harar survived. After being trapped in a city for centuries, that city becomes your identity.

 

[oogabooga]

A description of farming villages can be found by Al-Omari during the 1300s and he even describes them using Somali farming calendar terms

Yes but the whole purpose of me asking this was to see if there were any northern Somali towns today that had urban development like harar while agriculture being the center of their life. There is no evidence to suggest those villages were even Somali because the “Somali farming calendar” that is mentioned is literally the seasons of the Ethio-Semetic language cluster. Karam is the rainy season and literally embodied as the first month of the Ethiopian calendar “Maskaram.” Hararis say Karam or Kirmi. Bil is “belg” for ethio-semetic languages. Hararis say balda for that same period.

 

[Khaem]

The Proper ''Soomaal'' the name itself wasn't recorded until the Futuh (maybe it existed in older internal sources), but a pronunciation of it Semur/Simur was first mentioned in the Yeshaq poem who mentions it along side other clan names.

From it's earliest usage we can see that it wasn't an ethnic or a regional name , it was an local occupational name Futuh al-Habasha: Somalis As Bedouins , so it explains the total absence of it in external sources by visitors despite the fact that they described Somalis in other ways that are recognizable

So i doubt Chinese who had no internal access to local names and breifly stopped at port towns would have mentioned it.



It's a no brainer why there is no mention of a Harari people in any of the medieval sources including Futuh.

Because Somalis never name themselves after towns, cities or settlements, there is no Zaylawis, Berberans , bosasan , mercans, luuqians, hobadians, the Mogadishans, Maydhians, Barians etc. There is no single group exclusively named from a toponym , instead you have usually ''Reer'' in front of it to indicate it ''The family from/of this''.

but Habeshas are different they will come down from other areas and appropriate the name/toponym of a place despite having zero locality or historical ties to it.

Researchers saw this with Argobba.

I don't think popali in the 9th century is Somalia, i mentioned this before in a different thread: They are lumping two seperate unrelated descriptions into one in those texts.




But this is one is an awsome find though it actually mentions Zayla as the center in the 8th century.



They even detail trade expeditions of Merchants of Zela visiting Guangzhou. Great stuff.

After talking to many Habashi, instead of identifying with a "clan" they instead go by whatever village, town they originate from.

That's why alot of modern people calling themselves "Harari" are Amhara and Galla who settled the city after Meneliks conquest.

And the previous bunch calling themselves harari were Agrobba, who are linked to Amhara, and were refugees who settled in the city after the futuh.

Now the Ethiopianists try their hardest to discredit Somalis by creating this absurd link between Habasha groups who settled jn harar and the name 'Harla" in the Futuh who are not even an ethnicity or have a known language of their own. If you said calling someone a Harla during the Futuh was like calling someone a Tumaal that would be just as plausible a hypothesis.

There is literally 0 proof for what these ethiopians push. Meanwhile Somalis are named the most and Somalis are also named by their distinct clans. Showing the familiarity the Yemeni scribe had with Somali society.

 

[oogabooga]

After talking to many Habashi, instead of identifying with a "clan" they instead go by whatever village, town they originate from.

Even within Harar we have family names but we are not so qabilist because we had to be united and defend for our lives.

That's why alot of modern people calling themselves "Harari" are Amhara and Galla who settled the city after Meneliks conquest.

And the previous bunch calling themselves harari were Agrobba, who are linked to Amhara, and were refugees who settled in the city after the futuh.

And yet another “source? Trust me bro”.

Now the Ethiopianists try their hardest to discredit Somalis by creating this absurd link between Habasha groups who settled jn harar and the name 'Harla" in the Futuh who are not even an ethnicity or have a known language of their own. If you said calling someone a Harla during the Futuh was like calling someone a Tumaal that would be just as plausible a hypothesis.

Bro says all this yet his family doesn’t know how to farm, they didn’t make Harari homes, don’t even speak a language similar to us. You can’t even understand the language being spoken by the people of the time. People in futuh that had harari names and clan names in futuh that had harari names yet you have the audacity of calling us foreign. You see, unlike you I take into consideration of Harla potentially being Tumal but it doesn’t make sense. No single remnant of an agricultural-based urban center in Northern Somalia that speaks Somali is evidence of that, as that is how the Harla people used to live.

There is literally 0 proof for what these ethiopians push. Meanwhile Somalis are named the most and Somalis are also named by their distinct clans. Showing the familiarity the Yemeni scribe had with Somali society.

We had clans too, look in Futuh. Zarbe, Barzara, Zaman Bara. It’s just that we had an existential crisis that we had to abandon such clans for the sake of unity.