Did somalis actually have slaves?

I'd say cadcads and barwanis were the main ones keeping slaves, dunno why their name always gets forgotten in these conversations
 
I'd say the biggest urbanization drives happened right before and quickly after independence (mainly towards Mogadishu) and then the second wave right after the civil war (early 90s) making regional cities like Garowe grow rapidly.
So the Somali city states in the past weren't run and inhabited by Somalis? Or are you referring to the largest phase urbanization in our history?
 

Apollo

Staff Member
Moderator
So the Somali city states in the past weren't run and inhabited by Somalis? Or are you referring to the largest phase urbanization in our history?
Those ancient cities/towns probably only represented a tiny percentage of the whole population. The main urbanization phases were recent.
 
Somalis were top slave owners/trades during East African slave trade afrter the Arabs how do you think the Bantus got there in the first place we had slaves up until the Italians came and obolished it
 
I'd say cadcads and barwanis were the main ones keeping slaves, dunno why their name always gets forgotten in these conversations
nah sahib it also the Somali sultanate that had slaves specially the majerteen,hobyo and Warsangeli sultanates they were a under the imani sultanate How do you think daroods got to Oman and Yemen and why do you think mehris and hadhramis are in Puntland because Puntland had relationship with Oman and Yemen for centuries
 

Abu_Adnan

ala manhaj an nabuwwa
I find it interesting that many are trying to either hide the fact that Somalis kept slaves and worked them on plantations around the Juba and Shabelle (which is why Somali Bantu populations are concentrated there), either that or they're just ignorant of it or maybe ashamed. No reason to be ashamed though, these people were captured as disbelievers and in Islam it is halal to capture warring disbelievers as slaves. It's well documented that Somalis both traded in slaves and practiced it, so denying won't help anything besides making yourself a look ignorant.
 
According to Virginia Luling, Lee Cassanelli and others, the slaves prior to 1800 were almost entirely Arsi from Ethiopia or locally captured Oromos. Most were used in the care of stock or in the household and were well treated and often assimilated. The Gabawayn, Shabelli, Shidley and some others were part of the Bantu expansion and became clients of various Samaale clans, but were never chattel slaves. The enslaved Bantus were brought from Tanzania and other southern areas by the Omanis beginning about 1800, with large numbers, perhaps totaling 50,000, coming in the mid 19th century up to the Italian period. All of the Lower Shabelli tribes had agricultural slaves.

The agricultural slaves were poorly treated, leading to large numbers of runaways. The Mushunguli escaped in large enough numbers to keep their language and establish a chain of villages in the Lower Jubba. Other language groups adopted Maay and settled above Jamaame to beyond Bu'aale. Together, these groups formed the Gosha, who traded ivory to the Omanis for guns and had treaties with the British, Baraawe Zanzibar, etc. Tse tse and the guns kept pastoral Samaales away from the river. The Gosha were independent until the Italians introduced forced labor and took political control..

The Gosha were seen as a power beginning about 1840. Check Nassib Bundo, who was a Darwish ally:

 
According to Virginia Luling, Lee Cassanelli and others, the slaves prior to 1800 were almost entirely Arsi from Ethiopia or locally captured Oromos. Most were used in the care of stock or in the household and were well treated and often assimilated. The Gabawayn, Shabelli, Shidley and some others were part of the Bantu expansion and became clients of various Samaale clans, but were never chattel slaves. The enslaved Bantus were brought from Tanzania and other southern areas by the Omanis beginning about 1800, with large numbers, perhaps totaling 50,000, coming in the mid 19th century up to the Italian period. All of the Lower Shabelli tribes had agricultural slaves.

The agricultural slaves were poorly treated, leading to large numbers of runaways. The Mushunguli escaped in large enough numbers to keep their language and establish a chain of villages in the Lower Jubba. Other language groups adopted Maay and settled above Jamaame to beyond Bu'aale. Together, these groups formed the Gosha, who traded ivory to the Omanis for guns and had treaties with the British, Baraawe Zanzibar, etc. Tse tse and the guns kept pastoral Samaales away from the river. The Gosha were independent until the Italians introduced forced labor and took political control..

The Gosha were seen as a power beginning about 1840. Check Nassib Bundo, who was a Darwish ally:

do the "client" bantus still speak their language? or do we know what type of dialect they spoke if not?. which type of bantu is majoirty in somalia
 

Apollo

Staff Member
Moderator
The Gabawayn, Shabelli, Shidley and some others were part of the Bantu expansion
Disputed claim with no archaeological evidence. I won't debate this because we have been over this many times before. What was said in this sentence is not a fact, but only Grant's opinion.

Occam's razor: These tribes descend from earlier slaves who were imported during the late middle ages 1200s-1600s. They were released from Mogadishu (a slave trading port) and followed the river upstream.

The Arab-Indian Ocean slave trade existed since the 800s.
 
do the "client" bantus still speak their language? or do we know what type of dialect they spoke if not?. which type of bantu is majoirty in somalia
Except for the Mushunguli, all Bantus lost their languages. Population numbers in Somalia are just guesses for almost all groups. I saw one study, which I have not been able to find again, that said the two Bantu groups were roughly equivalent. at about 1.5 M each.(??) Before the civil war, one common estimate for just the Gosha alone was 80,000. Many are now shegad among noble clans.
 

Apollo

Staff Member
Moderator
Except for the Mushunguli, all Bantus lost their languages. Population numbers in Somalia are just guesses for almost all groups. I saw one study, which I have not been able to find again, that said the two Bantu groups were roughly equivalent. at about 1.5 M each.(??) Before the civil war, one common estimate for just the Gosha alone was 80,000. Many are now shegad among noble clans.
The Coptic language was spoken in parts of Egypt up to the 1700s, but now is effectively dead (except for liturgical usage).

The Shabelle Bantu could have spoken Bantu languages in the 1600s for all we know.
 
According to Virginia Luling, Lee Cassanelli and others, the slaves prior to 1800 were almost entirely Arsi from Ethiopia or locally captured Oromos. Most were used in the care of stock or in the household and were well treated and often assimilated. The Gabawayn, Shabelli, Shidley and some others were part of the Bantu expansion and became clients of various Samaale clans, but were never chattel slaves. The enslaved Bantus were brought from Tanzania and other southern areas by the Omanis beginning about 1800, with large numbers, perhaps totaling 50,000, coming in the mid 19th century up to the Italian period. All of the Lower Shabelli tribes had agricultural slaves.

The agricultural slaves were poorly treated, leading to large numbers of runaways. The Mushunguli escaped in large enough numbers to keep their language and establish a chain of villages in the Lower Jubba. Other language groups adopted Maay and settled above Jamaame to beyond Bu'aale. Together, these groups formed the Gosha, who traded ivory to the Omanis for guns and had treaties with the British, Baraawe Zanzibar, etc. Tse tse and the guns kept pastoral Samaales away from the river. The Gosha were independent until the Italians introduced forced labor and took political control..

The Gosha were seen as a power beginning about 1840. Check Nassib Bundo, who was a Darwish ally:

When you say all of the lower shabelle tribes had slaves do you mean ethnic somali tribes (like hawiye and rahanweyn) or arab-somalis like benadiris and reer Barawe?
 

Crow

Make Hobyo Great Again
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nah sahib it also the Somali sultanate that had slaves specially the majerteen,hobyo and Warsangeli sultanates they were a under the imani sultanate How do you think daroods got to Oman and Yemen and why do you think mehris and hadhramis are in Puntland because Puntland had relationship with Oman and Yemen for centuries
No, they weren't.
 
nah sahib it also the Somali sultanate that had slaves specially the majerteen,hobyo and Warsangeli sultanates they were a under the imani sultanate How do you think daroods got to Oman and Yemen and why do you think mehris and hadhramis are in Puntland because Puntland had relationship with Oman and Yemen for centuries
The ties between Darood/Puntland with Omani/Yemen has nothing to do with being under the Omani sultanate and everything with kinship and close proximity and trade. The relationship between Harti daroods and Mahra tribes in Hadramout yemen and Dhofar Oman is ancient. Its a pre islamic relationship built on a common frankincense and myrrh gathering culure. These two regions have been trading frankincense with each other for at least 4000 years.
4AE86C16-75A8-4AA7-97B2-1E0A8B99AFE8.png

This relationship is still ongoing and they are each others biggest trading partners. The Darood live in Mahra regions of Dhofar and hadramout and they live in our regions. The Mahra language even has many Somali loan words.
 
When you say all of the lower shabelle tribes had slaves do you mean ethnic somali tribes (like hawiye and rahanweyn) or arab-somalis like benadiris and reer Barawe?
The Portuguese controlled the East African coast and the slave trade from roughly 1506 to 1698-1758, depending on area. Mogadishu was under blockade, Baraawe was a major Portuguese port. Oman wriggled free of Portuguese control and took Fort Jesus at Mombassa, and essential control of the coast several times beginning in 1698.


"In 1698, Zanzibar became part of the overseas holdings of Oman, falling under the control of the Sultan of Oman. The Portuguese were expelled and a lucrative trade in slaves and ivory thrived, along with an expanding plantation economy centring on cloves. The Arabs established garrisons at Zanzibar, Pemba, and Kilwa. The height of Arab rule came during the reign of Seyyid Said (more fully, Sayyid Said bin Sultan al-Busaid), who in 1840 moved his capital from Muscat in Oman to Stone Town. He established a ruling Arab elite and encouraged the development of clove plantations, using the island's slave labour."

Some slave trading into Somalia began before 1800, but the big push was after the Omani capital moved to Stone Town. The Omani object was to create a grain, cotton and dye surplus in the Shabelli valley to ship to the gulf states and Middle East. This was why Yuusuf and Axmed of Geledi wanted the port at Mungiya, why Baardheere wanted Baraawe, and why the Biimaal and the entire Banaadiir fought so hard to keep them. The Harti also tried to get into the act at Mungiya, but were put off by Yuusuf of Geledi and moved on to establish Kismayu as a trading colony.

Practically everybody in the South was involved at some point after 1800. The Geledi and Bimaal were especially large slaveholders. The Hawiyye are also mentioned. Baraawe was a major early slave port and trader. By mid-century, Mogadishu was also significantly involved, as was Merka.

I get the feeling the Arabs and Banaadiris were more dealers in goods than actual plantation owners, but they almost certainly had at least household slaves. The native plantation period was promoted by the Omanis and was essentially just 19th century.
 

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