Could the 4% West African I score on 23AndMe be due to the 'Bantu migration'? (Not Somali, sorry!)

Sorry to ask something so completely irrelevant to Somalia, and the Horn in general — I'm just a little bit desperate at this point. I have been trying to figure this out for the longest, and everyone on this sub-forum seems to be very well-versed in African genetics, so as a last resort, I figured this may be a good place to try and gain some clarity. Also, I don't know of any other notable forum or platform that discusses African populations and their genetics, etc.

So, I'm South Sudanese, and on 23AndMe I score 4% West African. With Senegambian and Guinean being the highest percentage, although still super negligible, at 1.3%.

On LivingDNA, I score 19% West African, with my highest to lowest populations being Mende>Mandinka>Esan, in that order. However, it doesn't seem like my G25 coordinates indicate any recent West African ancestry, and when it comes to my 'Genetically Closest Modern Populations', Mandinka from Gambia is the first West African population to appear, but it doesn't even break the Top 30.

Can someone help me make sense of this? Someone once told me that the West African I score is likely due to the Bantu migration... But that sounded pretty insane to me. I don't know, I'm a total layman, I could absolutely be wrong. But yeah, I'm just wondering. Please correct me if there is anything about how any of this works that I've gotten wrong. I've attached some of my results. The 23AndMe attachment with 99.9% SSA is at 80% confidence, and the Senegambian and Guinean still appear, although just at 0.5%. So that makes me think, maybe there is something to it. But I don't know. Thanks so much if you can help!
 

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You’re good don’t know why you’re apologising we have some of the best genetic experts on this forum
Oh thanks! I just meant since the forum is about all things Somalia/Somali, so I can't help but feel a little intrusive. But thank you for the welcome, and I totally agree, they're great over here 🙂
 

Aseer

A man without a 🐫 won't be praised in afterlife
VIP
Oh thanks! I just meant since the forum is about all things Somalia/Somali, so I can't help but feel a little intrusive. But thank you for the welcome, and I totally agree, they're great over here 🙂
No your always welcome our nilotic cousin.
 
Sorry to ask something so completely irrelevant to Somalia, and the Horn in general — I'm just a little bit desperate at this point. I have been trying to figure this out for the longest, and everyone on this sub-forum seems to be very well-versed in African genetics, so as a last resort, I figured this may be a good place to try and gain some clarity. Also, I don't know of any other notable forum or platform that discusses African populations and their genetics, etc.

So, I'm South Sudanese, and on 23AndMe I score 4% West African. With Senegambian and Guinean being the highest percentage, although still super negligible, at 1.3%.

On LivingDNA, I score 19% West African, with my highest to lowest populations being Mende>Mandinka>Esan, in that order. However, it doesn't seem like my G25 coordinates indicate any recent West African ancestry, and when it comes to my 'Genetically Closest Modern Populations', Mandinka from Gambia is the first West African population to appear, but it doesn't even break the Top 30.

Can someone help me make sense of this? Someone once told me that the West African I score is likely due to the Bantu migration... But that sounded pretty insane to me. I don't know, I'm a total layman, I could absolutely be wrong. But yeah, I'm just wondering. Please correct me if there is anything about how any of this works that I've gotten wrong. I've attached some of my results. The 23AndMe attachment with 99.9% SSA is at 80% confidence, and the Senegambian and Guinean still appear, although just at 0.5%. So that makes me think, maybe there is something to it. But I don't know. Thanks so much if you can help!
@Nilotic your family is here
Lebron James Intel GIF by The Mill
 
Sorry to ask something so completely irrelevant to Somalia, and the Horn in general — I'm just a little bit desperate at this point. I have been trying to figure this out for the longest, and everyone on this sub-forum seems to be very well-versed in African genetics, so as a last resort, I figured this may be a good place to try and gain some clarity. Also, I don't know of any other notable forum or platform that discusses African populations and their genetics, etc.

So, I'm South Sudanese, and on 23AndMe I score 4% West African. With Senegambian and Guinean being the highest percentage, although still super negligible, at 1.3%.

On LivingDNA, I score 19% West African, with my highest to lowest populations being Mende>Mandinka>Esan, in that order. However, it doesn't seem like my G25 coordinates indicate any recent West African ancestry, and when it comes to my 'Genetically Closest Modern Populations', Mandinka from Gambia is the first West African population to appear, but it doesn't even break the Top 30.

Can someone help me make sense of this? Someone once told me that the West African I score is likely due to the Bantu migration... But that sounded pretty insane to me. I don't know, I'm a total layman, I could absolutely be wrong. But yeah, I'm just wondering. Please correct me if there is anything about how any of this works that I've gotten wrong. I've attached some of my results. The 23AndMe attachment with 99.9% SSA is at 80% confidence, and the Senegambian and Guinean still appear, although just at 0.5%. So that makes me think, maybe there is something to it. But I don't know. Thanks so much if you can help!
@The alchemist @Reformed J @Shimbiris help her out
 
1708776481261.png


You're a South Sudanese-based with Ugandan Nilotic leanings. If we had total coverage of the Nilotic groups of southern South Sudan with all Nilotics from Uganda, all other extra admixture would disappear. The Bantu affinity comes from a southern Nilotic shift, a group more historically adjacent to Bantu groups, with those mainly West African-derived peoples, further themselves closer to Mbuti-like and other hunter-gatherer peoples from Central Africa of which they carry such signatures frequencies rather than independently getting such mixing directly.

These commercial tests are not calibrated to the Nilotic or more the Sudanic regional variation, so they compensate the raw data in all wacky ways when they don't have an ample size of quality sample data set.

You don't deviate from the Nilotic internal diversity. All you have is a minor but substantial substructure of a Nilotic southward cline reaching north Uganda. Your DNA is part of the broader Nilotic structural geographic coinciding gradient, where the southern shift carries gradual, increased nested substrates.

From my assessment, you're not a deviated individual from the overall cluster when one factor in the rational regional interactive peopling and potential gene flow. If you measure yourself based on a "pure" Dinka-type, then you have a slight shift. But that is not reasonable, provided context for regional implication.
 

Khaemwaset

Djiboutian 🇩🇯 | 𐒖𐒆𐒄A𐒗𐒃 🇸🇴
VIP
Sorry to ask something so completely irrelevant to Somalia, and the Horn in general — I'm just a little bit desperate at this point. I have been trying to figure this out for the longest, and everyone on this sub-forum seems to be very well-versed in African genetics, so as a last resort, I figured this may be a good place to try and gain some clarity. Also, I don't know of any other notable forum or platform that discusses African populations and their genetics, etc.

So, I'm South Sudanese, and on 23AndMe I score 4% West African. With Senegambian and Guinean being the highest percentage, although still super negligible, at 1.3%.

On LivingDNA, I score 19% West African, with my highest to lowest populations being Mende>Mandinka>Esan, in that order. However, it doesn't seem like my G25 coordinates indicate any recent West African ancestry, and when it comes to my 'Genetically Closest Modern Populations', Mandinka from Gambia is the first West African population to appear, but it doesn't even break the Top 30.

Can someone help me make sense of this? Someone once told me that the West African I score is likely due to the Bantu migration... But that sounded pretty insane to me. I don't know, I'm a total layman, I could absolutely be wrong. But yeah, I'm just wondering. Please correct me if there is anything about how any of this works that I've gotten wrong. I've attached some of my results. The 23AndMe attachment with 99.9% SSA is at 80% confidence, and the Senegambian and Guinean still appear, although just at 0.5%. So that makes me think, maybe there is something to it. But I don't know. Thanks so much if you can help!
Nilotes received a small amount of westaf Dna from bantu expansion yes.
 
View attachment 317552

You're a South Sudanese-based with Ugandan Nilotic leanings. If we had total coverage of the Nilotic groups of southern South Sudan with all Nilotics from Uganda, all other extra admixture would disappear. The Bantu affinity comes from a southern Nilotic shift, a group more historically adjacent to Bantu groups, with those mainly West African-derived peoples, further themselves closer to Mbuti-like and other hunter-gatherer peoples from Central Africa of which they carry such signatures frequencies rather than independently getting such mixing directly.

These commercial tests are not calibrated to the Nilotic or more the Sudanic regional variation, so they compensate the raw data in all wacky ways when they don't have an ample size of quality sample data set.

You don't deviate from the Nilotic internal diversity. All you have is a minor but substantial substructure of a Nilotic southward cline reaching north Uganda. Your DNA is part of the broader Nilotic structural geographic coinciding gradient, where the southern shift carries gradual, increased nested substrates.

From my assessment, you're not a deviated individual from the overall cluster when one factor in the rational regional interactive peopling and potential gene flow. If you measure yourself based on a "pure" Dinka-type, then you have a slight shift. But that is not reasonable, provided context for regional implication.
Thank you! Lol, this is quite validating. So even given phenotypical differences, I don't deviate much at all from say a Dinka or Nuer person genetically, is something I've gathered. That's good to know.

And I just had two quick questions if you don't mind. As far as the distinctly tall stature that people typically imagine with Nilotic people, do you think 'Proto-Nilotes' had this same feature? Or was it likely something that just happened to develop in specific groups (Dinka, Nuer, Maasai, etc.) after there was already a divergence? Like due to pastoralism and the subsequent dairy-rich diets and whatnot.

And my second one, would it be correct to say that we pretty much originated where we reside even now? Maybe just migrating slightly southward?

Thanks!
 
Sorry to ask something so completely irrelevant to Somalia, and the Horn in general — I'm just a little bit desperate at this point. I have been trying to figure this out for the longest, and everyone on this sub-forum seems to be very well-versed in African genetics, so as a last resort, I figured this may be a good place to try and gain some clarity. Also, I don't know of any other notable forum or platform that discusses African populations and their genetics, etc.

So, I'm South Sudanese, and on 23AndMe I score 4% West African. With Senegambian and Guinean being the highest percentage, although still super negligible, at 1.3%.

On LivingDNA, I score 19% West African, with my highest to lowest populations being Mende>Mandinka>Esan, in that order. However, it doesn't seem like my G25 coordinates indicate any recent West African ancestry, and when it comes to my 'Genetically Closest Modern Populations', Mandinka from Gambia is the first West African population to appear, but it doesn't even break the Top 30.

Can someone help me make sense of this? Someone once told me that the West African I score is likely due to the Bantu migration... But that sounded pretty insane to me. I don't know, I'm a total layman, I could absolutely be wrong. But yeah, I'm just wondering. Please correct me if there is anything about how any of this works that I've gotten wrong. I've attached some of my results. The 23AndMe attachment with 99.9% SSA is at 80% confidence, and the Senegambian and Guinean still appear, although just at 0.5%. So that makes me think, maybe there is something to it. But I don't know. Thanks so much if you can help!
What's your ethnic group? It has more to do with the African Humid period(14k to 5k ya) migrations from West to East Africa. Modern Nilo-Saharans received ancient West African admixture amid this period that's probably how Niger-Congo Kordofan languages ended up in the Nuba mountains(see map below) :

Distribution-Niger-Congo-languages.jpg


Your West African admixture reflects this ancient component. It appears as Senegambian probably because the closest people to the proto-kordofanians are current Senegambians either because they were related or because Senegambians retained more similarity to them compared to other West Africans who moved south and assimilated some hunter-gatherers towards the coast. You're not an exception, the following genetic study's screenshot shows this Gambia Mandinka component amongst both Kordofan and Nilo-Saharan Nuba people

IMG_20240224_145550.jpg


This West African ancestry didn't reach the eastern side of the Nile due to the increased flooding of the Nile preventing humans to live near it. That's why no modern ethnicity is a perfect proxy for the East African ancestry Somalis and most other Horn Africans since proto-cushitic formed in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan between the Nile River and the Red Sea. The closest to their ancestors either have some West African(Nuba, Dinka..),Eurasian(Zaghawa...)or for those who may lack it like the Gumuz, they have Mota-like ancestry(Ethiopian hunter-gatherers)

eb907990397cb989158dbf593b97bf34.gif
 

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Nilotes received a small amount of westaf Dna from bantu expansion yes.
It has nothing to do with Bantus, only Nilotes from Kenya, Tanzania and parts of Uganda met the Bantus. The more recent West African ancestry those in South Sudan and Sudan could have receive comes from Ubangian speakers(like Azande) but generally it's because of more ancient events, check my previous answer
 
Thank you! Lol, this is quite validating. So even given phenotypical differences, I don't deviate much at all from say a Dinka or Nuer person genetically, is something I've gathered. That's good to know.

And I just had two quick questions if you don't mind. As far as the distinctly tall stature that people typically imagine with Nilotic people, do you think 'Proto-Nilotes' had this same feature? Or was it likely something that just happened to develop in specific groups (Dinka, Nuer, Maasai, etc.) after there was already a divergence? Like due to pastoralism and the subsequent dairy-rich diets and whatnot.

And my second one, would it be correct to say that we pretty much originated where we reside even now? Maybe just migrating slightly southward?

Thanks!
I haven't checked the stature of the hunter-gatherers of Sudan before the Neolithic to figure out if it was a direct height transition. I think it is a bit of both: milk consumers (pastoralists) are associated with increased height relative to sedentary farmer groups, and we can expect some diversity in height within Sudanic groups before pastoralism, where the potentiality of height capacity was already one feature of the genetic spread, so Nilotics maximized that one over time due to selection or different processes of mating preference.

Where you originated is difficult to answer. To give a general answer, you're from the greater Sudan region. Those Jebel Sahaba people were likely heavily Ancestral East African, and they lived damn near the modern border of Egypt, with related Qadan Culture bearers living deep into Upper Egypt.
 
I haven't checked the stature of the hunter-gatherers of Sudan before the Neolithic to figure out if it was a direct height transition. I think it is a bit of both: milk consumers (pastoralists) are associated with increased height relative to sedentary farmer groups, and we can expect some diversity in height within Sudanic groups before pastoralism, where the potentiality of height capacity was already one feature of the genetic spread, so Nilotics maximized that one over time due to selection or different processes of mating preference.

Where you originated is difficult to answer. To give a general answer, you're from the greater Sudan region. Those Jebel Sahaba people were likely heavily Ancestral East African, and they lived damn near the modern border of Egypt, with related Qadan Culture bearers living deep into Upper Egypt.
Oh okay, that's understandable, that it'd likely be more than one factor.

Yeah, that's what I figured. That's really cool to imagine honestly, well for me anyway. That my ancestors pretty much stayed put in the same general region since the beginning of humanity effectively, lol. And I'd actually never known about the Qadan Culture until now, that's very fascinating. I'm curious to see how the narratives about the region will progress as more archeological sites are found and samples taken.

Thank you for all your insight, because I could never quite reconcile this part of my results, which had always been super frustrating. But everything you've said certainly gives some much-appreciated clarity. Thanks!
 
What's your ethnic group? It has more to do with the African Humid period(14k to 5k ya) migrations from West to East Africa. Modern Nilo-Saharans received ancient West African admixture amid this period that's probably how Niger-Congo Kordofan languages ended up in the Nuba mountains(see map below) :

View attachment 317558

Your West African admixture reflects this ancient component. It appears as Senegambian probably because the closest people to the proto-kordofanians are current Senegambians either because they were related or because Senegambians retained more similarity to them compared to other West Africans who moved south and assimilated some hunter-gatherers towards the coast. You're not an exception, the following genetic study's screenshot shows this Gambia Mandinka component amongst both Kordofan and Nilo-Saharan Nuba people

View attachment 317560

This West African ancestry didn't reach the eastern side of the Nile due to the increased flooding of the Nile preventing humans to live near it. That's why no modern ethnicity is a perfect proxy for the East African ancestry Somalis and most other Horn Africans since proto-cushitic formed in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan between the Nile River and the Red Sea. The closest to their ancestors either have some West African(Nuba, Dinka..),Eurasian(Zaghawa...)or for those who may lack it like the Gumuz, they have Mota-like ancestry(Ethiopian hunter-gatherers)

View attachment 317561
Oh okay, so it turns out I was mistaken, lol. And I'm Acholi.

This is a great reminder to appreciate just how frequently populations have moved around. And expectedly so, over the course of thousands of years. This was extremely informative, thank you so much 🙂
 
Oh okay, that's understandable, that it'd likely be more than one factor.

Yeah, that's what I figured. That's really cool to imagine honestly, well for me anyway. That my ancestors pretty much stayed put in the same general region since the beginning of humanity effectively, lol. And I'd actually never known about the Qadan Culture until now, that's very fascinating. I'm curious to see how the narratives about the region will progress as more archeological sites are found and samples taken.

Thank you for all your insight, because I could never quite reconcile this part of my results, which had always been super frustrating. But everything you've said certainly gives some much-appreciated clarity. Thanks!
I have to qualify for one thing. Origin is not the same as staying put necessarily. The Nile Valley and the entire Saharan Desert have changed in complex ways over the period we're talking about, and there were times when hunter-gatherers covered extreme distances, while other times they were very regional. Proto-Nilotic and down were more of the focus than deeper trends.
 

johnsepei5

Head of Somalia freemasonry branch
Sorry to ask something so completely irrelevant to Somalia, and the Horn in general — I'm just a little bit desperate at this point. I have been trying to figure this out for the longest, and everyone on this sub-forum seems to be very well-versed in African genetics, so as a last resort, I figured this may be a good place to try and gain some clarity. Also, I don't know of any other notable forum or platform that discusses African populations and their genetics, etc.

So, I'm South Sudanese, and on 23AndMe I score 4% West African. With Senegambian and Guinean being the highest percentage, although still super negligible, at 1.3%.

On LivingDNA, I score 19% West African, with my highest to lowest populations being Mende>Mandinka>Esan, in that order. However, it doesn't seem like my G25 coordinates indicate any recent West African ancestry, and when it comes to my 'Genetically Closest Modern Populations', Mandinka from Gambia is the first West African population to appear, but it doesn't even break the Top 30.

Can someone help me make sense of this? Someone once told me that the West African I score is likely due to the Bantu migration... But that sounded pretty insane to me. I don't know, I'm a total layman, I could absolutely be wrong. But yeah, I'm just wondering. Please correct me if there is anything about how any of this works that I've gotten wrong. I've attached some of my results. The 23AndMe attachment with 99.9% SSA is at 80% confidence, and the Senegambian and Guinean still appear, although just at 0.5%. So that makes me think, maybe there is something to it. But I don't know. Thanks so much if you can help!
I think the bantu admixture could be from
The jollof and Egusi expansion 400 years ago
 

Cartan Boos

Average SSC Patriot
VIP
What's your ethnic group? It has more to do with the African Humid period(14k to 5k ya) migrations from West to East Africa. Modern Nilo-Saharans received ancient West African admixture amid this period that's probably how Niger-Congo Kordofan languages ended up in the Nuba mountains(see map below) :

View attachment 317558

Your West African admixture reflects this ancient component. It appears as Senegambian probably because the closest people to the proto-kordofanians are current Senegambians either because they were related or because Senegambians retained more similarity to them compared to other West Africans who moved south and assimilated some hunter-gatherers towards the coast. You're not an exception, the following genetic study's screenshot shows this Gambia Mandinka component amongst both Kordofan and Nilo-Saharan Nuba people

View attachment 317560

This West African ancestry didn't reach the eastern side of the Nile due to the increased flooding of the Nile preventing humans to live near it. That's why no modern ethnicity is a perfect proxy for the East African ancestry Somalis and most other Horn Africans since proto-cushitic formed in Southern Egypt/Northern Sudan between the Nile River and the Red Sea. The closest to their ancestors either have some West African(Nuba, Dinka..),Eurasian(Zaghawa...)or for those who may lack it like the Gumuz, they have Mota-like ancestry(Ethiopian hunter-gatherers)

View attachment 317561
it's conservative classification, many see the Kadu languages as an independent family, 1981 it got classified as nilo saharen, many groups like sene-gambians do have nilo saharens, it's the other way around
 
It has nothing to do with Bantus, only Nilotes from Kenya, Tanzania and parts of Uganda met the Bantus. The more recent West African ancestry those in South Sudan and Sudan could have receive comes from Ubangian speakers(like Azande) but generally it's because of more ancient events, check my previous answer
Are u Somali Bantu ?
 

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