OPINION Confederations don’t work

[MT Foxtrot]

We know any system will fail.

You're missing the entire point. The assertion that "any system will fail" is a banal truism completely irrelevant to the conversation here. @Periplus's argument is that confederations are inherently unstable and a poor system of government.

Confederation is the final nail for separation of the ethnic groups that share little in common.

The absolute state of qabilcels.

Kulaha "separation of the ethnic groups". Warya, ma fiican tahay?

 

[Gantaal97]

Regionalism doesnt amount to sh*t sxb, Somalis vastly put more value in their qabiil than their region. The biggest obstacle to centralism isnt such economics or geography but its the clan division.
The Galkacyo problem is obviously one of those things that need to be solved un the future. But its not worth ditching federalism over that one issue.

What I'm talking about is Qabil politics not the cultural identity and what I'm proposing is a true federal system based on regionalism instead of splitting families on Qabil lines people in Mudug should live as one under one autonomous system that could encourage healthy political discussion instead of Qabayaled nonsense that's why SL or DDS would never wish to be part of this current nonsense framework that exists in Xamar.

 

[Hassan Garguute Buldanana]

You're missing the entire point. The assertion that "any system will fail" is a banal truism completely irrelevant to the conversation here. @Periplus's argument is that confederations are inherently unstable and a poor system of government.




The absolute state of qabilcels.

Kulaha "separation of the ethnic groups". Warya, ma fiican tahay?

I agree with him confederation will fail, I just added any other system will also fail unfortunately.

 

[wheel]

What I'm talking about is Qabil politics not the cultural identity and what I'm proposing is a true federal system based on regionalism instead of splitting families on Qabil lines people in Mudug should live as one under one autonomous system that could encourage healthy political discussion instead of Qabayaled nonsense that's why SL or DDS would never wish to be part of this current nonsense framework that exists in Xamar.

"True federalism" is irrevelevent whatever that that means. It's not even true because Usa for example you have one region in two states. If we're going to divide based on regions then federalism is not a solution, it becomes a problem. Like i said before, federalism is here most importantly to fix the qabiil problems which is real, and is central to the somali consciousness, letting unimportant things like "regionalism" get in the way just because currently it doesn't conform to how its done elsewhere would be a failure in its implementation.

 

[Jaale]

@Periplus
Do you support Federalism?

 

[Gantaal97]

"True federalism" is irrevelevent whatever that that means. It's not even true because Usa for example you have one region in two states. If we're going to divide based on regions then federalism is not a solution, it becomes a problem. Like i said before, federalism is here most importantly to fix the qabiil problems which is real, and is central to the somali consciousness, letting unimportant things like "regionalism" get in the way just because currently it doesn't conform to how its done elsewhere would be a failure in its implementation.

You're out of touch of how Somalis actually want their country to function. What I mean of true centralized federal system is one that is similar to Germany Switzerland or the US Somalia has 18 regions 2 combined regions or 1 can be a new federal state with diverse clans to encourage unity between Somali people. There's no Federalism in Somalia what's on there is Qabil system advocated by the corrupt warlords and politicians.

 

[wheel]

You're out of touch of how Somalis actually want their country to function. What I mean of true centralized federal system is one that is similar to Germany Switzerland or the US Somalia has 18 regions 2 combined regions or 1 can be a new federal state with diverse clans to encourage unity between Somali people. There's no Federalism in Somalia what's on there is Qabil system advocated by the corrupt warlords and politicians.

This true federalism in Germany is also mostly based on historical identity and borders that existed before unification, i think the same in Malaysia or the US which was multiple British colonies. No such thing exists in Somalia because before we were a state since we all coalesced and identified with our qabiil, that's the only borders that exist and matter to Somalis.

 

[digaagjecel]

Centralized authoritarian government is what we need. Somalis are to dumb and narrow minded to make any strategic judgements for the good of the country.

 

[Periplus]

Virtually nobody pushes for confederalism. Somalia will end before Qabiil as Qabiil is the building block of a Somali.

 

[Periplus]

For that system to work we need the fgs, to stop waging war on it.

I completely agree.

I do not support anyone back home really. Every side is selfish to a point.

 

[Periplus]

@Periplus
Do you support Federalism?

Yes, but not the current form of it.

 

[Dark Energy]

Federalism is only pushed by qabiils that know they will lose out under centralism. So they hide under their states for their own safety. Because this is the only power they have.

In reality, country like Somalia shouldn't be divided into federal states as it creates mini civil wars among the regional states like what's happening in Jubbaland, Hirshabelle and currently in Galmadug and regional states fighting against each other like Puntland and Somaliland.

Most people against Centralism think Federalism will protect them. In reality federalism system that Meles implemented in Ethiopia and Somalia actually benefits a minority ruling class like the Tigrayans as they can just created to divide and rule people in the federal states. If Farmaajo overcomes the political instability regarding the elections and gets re-elected he can use the same games to divide and rule federal states against him.

Federalism only benefited the regional states especially when there were no central gov. But with a central gov. Central gov can divide and rule people inside the states and put create loyal mps and loyal regional Presidents as they have the most resources and the fact is most arab countries such as UAE no longer funds these regional states. So it can be sticky situation for the states against government.

I think the solution is a strong government that takes control whole country and implement strong laws and surveillance. Also, to remove Qabils and implement a hierarchy system maybe like England: Upper Class, Middle Class and Worker Class.

A poor geeljiire from Puntland would think he is laandheere compare to a reer xamar that has medium sized business in central xamar. I find this very absurd

You must be a dog that barks and not bite. Like they say, it is only the ones that make the loudest noise that are the ones with nothing. Meaning if you don't have a state where you dominated, then you'll be against federalism and support centralism. Because that's your only shot.

 

[Diaspora ambassador]

I completely agree.

I do not support anyone back home really. Every side is selfish to a point.

I understand. I hope we will enter the regional era instead of qabiil we can rep our states.

 

[Periplus]

I agree with him confederation will fail, I just added any other system will also fail unfortunately.

Any other system will fail with the current crop of leadership.

However, confederation will fail regardless of leadership.

That’s the difference.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Periplus It doesn't matter if I am qabilist or somali lover, you cannot show me 1 instance of a Somali central body either in Somalia or abroad that functions with everyone happy with it. Look at our diaspora community who struggle to create a single functioning diaspora community, yet you expect these ppl will get along under centralism in Somalia. You also forget to mention, we had 15 national conference with each one collapsing similar to how GM is today for the past 16 years, collapse after collapse.

I and many ppl found out now who is responsible for these collapse and it's hawiye. The evidence is overwhelming because they can still barely create an administration in their home region and mogadishu itself requires Somali n International assistance. If we would've thrown our lot in with these ppl, PL wud be stuck in their mess and we would all be arguing who is right and wrong but with federation, we can truly tell who is right or wrong based on their home region as proof for all to see.

After state collapse, it's un-wise to rush into a union and it should've started as a confederacy with a 99 year treaty to distance ourselves from each other with a review every 30 years to check if the situation on the ground is suitable for federation and sharing of tasks. Unfortunately we rushed federation and now we see political instability due to it.

Australia mind u was 6 separate colonies, shaqo iskuma lahayn waryaa dadka beenta ka daa. They joined as a federation in 1901, that's what I want for Somalia, in 100 sano 6 dawladood la kala ahaado kadib laysku yimaado under federation, similar to the Australian model where we can create a strong federation when all the pieces in the nations are functioning first.

Australia would never of had a federation if a part of the nation were dysfunctional like HS/GM/Hamar. They would've said let's go back to separate governments and they would've created a confederation road-map with an end goal of federation within 99 years. They wouldn't rush a federation if parts of the nation were in turmoil and chaos. It would've required institutional stability to be met by all, rule of law, democracy, and powersharing to be done by all stakeholders.

 

[Periplus]

@Periplus It doesn't matter if I am qabilist or somali lover, you cannot show me 1 instance of a Somali central body either in Somalia or abroad that functions with everyone happy with it. Look at our diaspora community who struggle to create a single functioning diaspora community, yet you expect these ppl will get along under centralism in Somalia. You also forget to mention, we had 15 national conference with each one collapsing similar to how GM is today for the past 16 years, collapse after collapse.

I and many ppl found out now who is responsible for these collapse and it's hawiye. The evidence is overwhelming because they can still barely create an administration in their home region and mogadishu itself requires Somali n International assistance. If we would've thrown our lot in with these ppl, PL wud be stuck in their mess and we would all be arguing who is right and wrong but with federation, we can truly tell who is right or wrong based on their home region as proof for all to see.

After state collapse, it's un-wise to rush into a union and it should've started as a confederacy with a 99 year treaty to distance ourselves from each other with a review every 30 years to check if the situation on the ground is suitable for federation and sharing of tasks. Unfortunately we rushed federation and now we see political instability due to it.

Australia mind u was 6 separate colonies, shaqo iskuma lahayn waryaa dadka beenta ka daa. They joined as a federation in 1901, that's what I want for Somalia, in 100 sano 6 dawladood la kala ahaado kadib laysku yimaado under federation, similar to the Australian model where we can create a strong federation when all the pieces in the nations are functioning first.

Australia would never of had a federation if a part of the nation were dysfunctional like HS/GM/Hamar. They would've said let's go back to separate governments and they would've created a confederation road-map with an end goal of federation within 99 years. They wouldn't rush a federation if parts of the nation were in turmoil and chaos. It would've required institutional stability to be met by all, rule of law, democracy, and powersharing to be done by all stakeholders.

Firstly, there is no country on earth in which its citizens are happy with their government.

Secondly, confederation does not last more than 10 years. The nation collapses within a decade. Your plan is asking for another civil war.

Thirdly, there was no Australia prior to federation. They were seperate colonies, similar to British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland and similar to them, they decided to unite on independence.

Finally, this is the main point....

Whether Somalis like it or not, they have to live together again or face another civil war or worse, an eternity as a poor and weak nation.

That is up to whether Somalis are willing to evolve past qabiilism.

 

[reer]

Firstly, is no country on earth in which its citizens are happy with their government.

Secondly, confederation does not last more than years. The nation collapses within a decade. Your plan is asking for another civil war.

Thirdly, there was no Australia prior to federation. They were seperate colonies, similar to British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland and similar to them, they decided to unite on independence.

Finally, this is the main point....

Whether Somalis like it or not, they have to live together again or face another civil war or worse, an eternity as a poor and weak nation.

That is up to whether Somalis are willing to evolve past qabiilism.

bosnian confederation is held together by beesha caalamka.

 

[Periplus]

bosnian confederation is held together by beesha caalamka.

Bosnia is on the brink of collapse.

 

[DR OSMAN]

@Periplus You are wrong about Australia federation process. They were 6 separate self governing colonies. The queen didn't get involved in day to day matters of the colony and they enjoyed a high level of autonomy.

he Federation of Australia was the process by which the six separate British self-governing colonies of Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia, and Western Australia agreed to unite and form the Commonwealth of Australia

The people of Australia merged their colonies after extensive talks about how to fit federation while using the west-minster system. They rejected the canadian model, they studied the swiss model n the american model of federation which they supported as itgave the federal govt only small tasks and left everything else to the states to manage.

They're were also talks about how to handle weaker economies similar to how we will need to discuss about HS/GM role in the federation.

 

[Periplus]

@Periplus You are wrong about Australia federation process. They were 6 separate self governing colonies. The queen didn't get involved in day to day matters of the colony and they enjoyed a high level of autonomy.



The people of Australia merged their colonies after extensive talks about how to fit federation while using the west-minster system. They rejected the canadian model, they studied the swiss model n the american model of federation which they supported as itgave the federal govt only small tasks and left everything else to the states to manage.

They're were also talks about how to handle weaker economies similar to how we will need to discuss about HS/GM role in the federation.

Listen walaal,

If you can find 2 confederations that was able to last over 2 decades, your point is valid.

Nearly every confederation collapses after 10 years.

Somalia will not be able to swiftly transition if a confederacy collapses like other countries. We will quickly descend into another civil war.

What you are arguing for is another civil war within a decade.