IMPORTANT British said Somalilanders could never be fully independent

[Rocca Littorio]

In a declassified cabinet meeting about the decolonisation of African colonies, the British government stated that British Somaliland was 'never likely to gain full independence'.

This was reiterated twice by the British government, in 1954 and 1956.

In 1949, the British government stated that while large colonies could be independent and have thriving economies and smaller colonies could form federations with larger colonies. The colony of British Somaliland 'must remain for the foreseeable future under British rule'.

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Here are the sources for those that are doubtful

 

[Rocca Littorio]

In a peer-reviewed article by The English Historical Review:

By May of 1960, British Colonial Secretary, Ian Maclead officially stated that Britain was about to grant independence to Somaliland protectorate so that it can unite with Italian Somaliland (Somalia), which was scheduled to become a sovereign state on July 1, 1960. The Secretary made his announcement while Somaliland leaders were in London for talks on a constitution.

The British made the decision behind their backs and forced them to join Somalia Italiana because they couldn't trust them.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

I don't want to hear Somalilanders saying they chose to join Somalia, it was either that or remain under British subjugation forever.

It also nullifies their reason for seceding "We chose to join Somalia and we can choose to leave Somalia".

 

[waraabe]

I don't want to hear Somalilanders saying they chose to join Somalia, it was either that or remain under British subjugation forever.

It also nullifies their reason for seceding "We chose to join Somalia and we can choose to leave Somalia".

Why didn’t you include the reference of your supposed quote lol

 

[Rocca Littorio]

Why didn’t you include the reference of your supposed quote lol

For the second post...

Imperial Policies and Nationalism in The Decolonization of Somaliland, 1954–1960
The English Historical Review, Volume 117, Issue 474, 1 November 2002, Pages 1177–1203,

https://doi.org/10.1093/ehr/117.474.1177
Published: 01 November 2002

 

[Saalax Bidaar]

These articles don’t really reveal much sxb. The statements were made in separate times, one waswas made in 1949 and is separate from the second statement made in 1960

Now you must understand Somaliland went to the British and made their intentions known to them that intend to form union Prior to independence. That is all the second article is stating

I don’t believe Egal and Somaliland leaders had any interest in being independent country but they could have been if they so pleased

Look at Djabouti for example. Small, resourceless yet independent

 

[Rocca Littorio]

These articles don’t really reveal much sxb. The statements were made in separate times, one waswas made in 1949 and is separate from the second statement made in 1960

Now you must understand Somaliland went to the British and made their intentions known to them that intend to form union Prior to independence. That is all the second article is stating

I don’t believe Egal and Somaliland leaders had any interest in being independent country but they could have been if they so pleased

Look at Djabouti for example. Small, resourceless yet independent

The statements were made in 1949, 1954, 1956 and 1960. So they reviewed their decision every few years.

No one is saying that Somaliland didn't want to be independent but the idea of a union was forced upon them by the British who did not trust them. That's my main point, Somaliland can't revoke a union they had no choice in. The union was going to happen either way.

 

[Lordilord]

The statements were made in 1949, 1954, 1956 and 1960. So they reviewed their decision every few years.

No one is saying that Somaliland didn't want to be independent but the idea of a union was forced upon them by the British who did not trust them. That's my main point, Somaliland can't revoke a union they had no choice in. The union was going to happen either way.

Are you arguing with yourself??? No one is saying Somaliland was forced into a union, Somaliland wanted to form greater Somali state together with Italian Somaliland.

It's what happened during the union that forced Somaliland to leave the union.

Even in the beginning different union treaties were signed. The legalities of the union is very questionable.

As in two states joining into union they have different demands. There's a lot to it.

You can say it all you want Somaliland will never get recognized but SL doesn't need recognition if they can enforce their own will.

Since 2016 Somaliland has never been so politically relevant as their are in the horn today. With every big move, they get further and further away from Somalia's almost nonexisting grasp.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

Are you arguing with yourself??? No one is saying Somaliland was forced into a union, Somaliland wanted to form greater Somali state together with Italian Somaliland.

It's what happened during the union that forced Somaliland to leave the union.

Even in the beginning different union treaties were signed. The legalities of the union is very questionable.

As in two states joining into union they have different demands. There's a lot to it.

You can say it all you want Somaliland will never get recognized but SL doesn't need recognition if they can enforce their own will.

Since 2016 Somaliland has never been so politically relevant as their are in the horn today. With every big move, they get further and further away from Somalia's almost nonexisting grasp.

Are you illiterate?

The sources I have shown stated that the British did not believe Somaliland was politically capable of being independent on their own.

They were forced into a union by the British while their leaders were in London.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

Somalilanders claim that they chose to be in the union and they can leave whenever.

That is not true and every source available says that.

A union means there were two consenting parties, Somaliland was never able as an entity to even consider that proposition.

 

[Lordilord]

Are you illiterate?

The sources I have shown stated that the British did not believe Somaliland was politically capable of being independent on their own.

They were forced into a union by the British while their leaders were in London.

Does that change the fact that British gave Somaliland their independence before the union?? That's all we need, you seem to think their beliefs and thoughts on Somaliland before the recognition matters.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

Does that change the fact that British gave Somaliland their independence before the union?? That's all we need, you seem to think their beliefs and thoughts on Somaliland before the recognition matters.

How are you this ignorant???

Somaliland was given independence earlier because Somalia Italiana was given 10 years to form political parties and have self-governance.

As part of the independence arrangement, Somaliland's politicians joined the SYL and other southern parties. All that was needed was for elections in Somaliland which was done in that time.

This is accepted by every historian that has studied this issue.

 

[Lordilord]

How are you this ignorant???

Somaliland was given independence earlier because Somalia Italiana was given 10 years to form political parties and have self-governance.

As part of the independence arrangement, Somaliland's politicians joined the SYL and other southern parties. All that was needed was for elections in Somaliland which was done in that time.

This is accepted by every historian that has studied this issue.

I know that but they signed different acts of union, two different treaties saaxib. No one is saying Somaliland was forced, they wanted to enter into union with Italian Somaliland.

Historians? What are you on about? Tell me one historian lol

 

[Lordilord]

What happened is that a former independent state withdrew from the union in 1991. It's simple as that, you don't need to tell me anything else.

Since Somaliland was formerly given recognition and independence by the British they are protected by UN conventions. How come Somalia doesn't take Somaliland to international court? Most countries would do that, it is very simple.

Are they afraid because of the legal significance of being given independence by the British in 1960?? The international court might recognize Somaliland just from this fact. Supported by:

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States treaty signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933.

Charter of the United Nations, Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 26 June 1945.

UN Resolution on Recognition by the United Nations of the Representation of a Member State, 14 December 1950

The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, also known as the “New York Arbitration Convention” or the “New York Convention 1958

UN Resolution on United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 14 December 1960)

 

[Lordilord]

Somaliland and Somalia merged through an international treaty. Irregularities occurred in the ratification of the treaty, however. The two states drafted separate treaties. Somaliland crafted a draft treaty, legislatively approved it, and sent it to the authorities in Mogadishu, the southern capital. The authorities in Mogadishu never approved the draft. Instead, the southern legislature wrote a significantly different treaty, the Act of Union, which the national legislature made retroactively binding in 1961 after unification was an established fact.8 A subsequent national referendum on the proposed constitution heightened the discrepancy between the two entities: northerners voted against it, whereas southerners voted for it.9

 

[Rocca Littorio]

I know that but they signed different acts of union, two different treaties saaxib. No one is saying Somaliland was forced, they wanted to enter into union with Italian Somaliland.

Historians? What are you on about? Tell me one historian lol

First of all, the decision to give Somaliland independence was hastily made. Here is a quote that refers to it.

By May of 1960, British Colonial Secretary, Ian Maclead officially stated that Britain was about to grant independence to Somaliland protectorate so that it can unite with Italian Somaliland (Somalia), which was scheduled to become a sovereign state on July 1, 1960. The Secretary made his announcement while Somaliland leaders were in London for talks on a constitution.

Here we can see two things. Firstly, the decision to give independence was made in May 1960, giving Somaliland one month to get ready to be independent. Secondly, the leaders of Somaliland were unaware of the union as they were preparing a constitution despite the SYL creating one for Somalia a decade earlier.
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Another point that needs to be understood is that Somalia was given to the UN as a trust territory after WWII. The UN gave the territory of Somalia to Italy on the condition that Somalia will be independent on the 1st of July 1960 and Somalis would be able to self-govern themselves.
This quote aptly mentions the impact self-governance had on Somalia Italiana:

To the extent that Italy held the territory by UN mandate, the trusteeship provisions gave the Somalis the opportunity to gain experience in political education and self-government. These were advantages that British Somaliland, which was to be incorporated into the new Somali state, did not have. Although in the 1950s British colonial officials attempted, through various development efforts, to make up for past neglect, the protectorate stagnated. The disparity between the two territories in economic development and political experience would cause serious difficulties when it came time to integrate the two parts

We also gain two things from this quote. First, Somalia was given the opportunity to govern themselves and get a feel of the responsibility of independence. Secondly, Somaliland was not afforded this opportunity and would later be a burden on Somalia Italiana.
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Now that we have established Somaliland was unaware of the union proposal and were politically behind Somalia, let's explore who actually conceived the idea of union.
The SYL.

Although Abdillahi Issa was the party’s secretary, it was Michael Mariano, a Northern Somali, and another lawyer by the name of Salol (Indian mother and Somali father) who wrote all SYL documents. These two proposed to the leadership that the Party should approach the British, who might support Somali unification.

This shows that the SYL went to the British and offered to unite with Somaliland.

 

[Lordilord]

First of all, the decision to give Somaliland independence was hastily made. Here is a quote that refers to it.

Here we can see two things. Firstly, the decision to give independence was made in May 1960, giving Somaliland one month to get ready to be independent. Secondly, the leaders of Somaliland were unaware of the union as they were preparing a constitution despite the SYL creating one for Somalia a decade earlier.
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Another point that needs to be understood is that Somalia was given to the UN as a trust territory after WWII. The UN gave the territory of Somalia to Italy on the condition that Somalia will be independent on the 1st of July 1960 and Somalis would be able to self-govern themselves.
This quote aptly mentions the impact self-governance had on Somalia Italiana:

We also gain two things from this quote. First, Somalia was given the opportunity to govern themselves and get a feel of the responsibility of independence. Secondly, Somaliland was not afforded this opportunity and would later be a burden on Somalia Italiana.
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Now that we have established Somaliland was unaware of the union proposal and were politically behind Somalia, let's explore who actually conceived the idea of union.
The SYL.

This shows that the SYL went to the British and offered to unite with Somaliland.

Read my two posts above, EVEN if it was hastily done Somaliland got INDEPENDENCE get that through your thick skull.

Somaliland wanted to enter into a union with Italian Somaliland, that is not the issue. The issue is the legalities of the Union itself.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

Read my two posts above, EVEN if it was hastily done Somaliland got INDEPENDENCE get that through your thick skull.

Somaliland wanted to enter into a union with Italian Somaliland, that is not the issue. The issue is the legalities of the Union itself.

Cameroon was the same as Somalia. There was a French part and the British part.

The French became independent in January 1960 and the British became independent in October.

The British had this pattern with colonies they were planning on merging.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

@Lordilord

Definition of an international treaty: An agreement under international law entered into by actors in international law, namely sovereign states and international organizations.

Somaliland and Somalia were not a sovereign state nor international organisations so they could not have signed an international treaty.

 

[Lordilord]

Cameroon was the same as Somalia. There was a French part and the British part.

The French became independent in January 1960 and the British became independent in October.

The British had this pattern with colonies they were planning on merging.

IT doesn't matter, what you say just goes through the air saaxib.

The advisory of The International Court of Justice is the principal judicial organ of the United Nations on Somaliland is the following:

This is just part of it but you can read the whole thing here: https://studylib.net/doc/8799017/rhsmun-2015-icj-update-paper

Anything you say on SL&SO union or whatever is just air after this. Here's your facts..