British said Somalilanders could never be fully independent

[Rocca Littorio]

They chose to join Italian Somaliland not Somalia, Somalia is the product of British Somaliland and Italian Somaliland entering into a union.

Regardless of one being more developed, if Somaliland wanted to be a separate state from Italian Somaliland they would have been able to.

Look at Djibouti(French Somaliland) very scarce in resources but independent.

French Somaliland was groomed to be independent from the beginning like Somalia Italiana.

Britain never prepared Somaliland for independence.

That's the difference.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

The British government even said that Somaliland's size was not the issue:

In 1949, the British government stated that while large colonies could be independent and have thriving economies and smaller colonies could form federations with larger colonies. The colony of British Somaliland 'must remain for the foreseeable future under British rule'.

 

[Lordilord]

Only a nation is allowed to take another nation to court. The most Somalia can do is put the SL leadership on trial for treason in Mogadishu but that would not be politically correct.

Since Somaliland is a de-facto country they can take Somaliland to ICJ, basically since they have no enforcement of their rule there.

They can turn to ICJ. You need to understand this, they cannot put SL leadership on trial let alone arrest them. They have no access. ICJ is an option but they will never pursue that and you and me both know why. We wouldn't want the ICJ to recognize Somaliland's claim lol.

Palestine got independence in 1948 but is not a sovereign state because the UN and other major nations refused to give it recognition. The same happened to Somaliland, they were independent but the UN, AU, US and USSR refused to recognise Somaliland.

Somaliland was independent for 5 days saaxib, they didn't even got to that point but if they wanted to they surely could. Regardless of grooming lol, think logically..

If Somaliland protectorate decided to not join Italian Somaliland then we can assume that they wouldn't have been given independence short term but in the long term they most definitely would have been given their independence.

This would've been the better option

 

[Rocca Littorio]

The only way Somaliland can justify its independence today is:

1. Somaliland got recognised as a nation by the international community.
2. Somaliland decided, after independence to join Somalia.
3. Majority of the population agrees and they unite
4. After 1991, Somaliland holds another referendum and separates

If that was the case, I would support Somaliland as it is a legal separation.

However, Somaliland was not recognised and decided to join Somalia before independence.

Many Somalilander leaders know this is true, that is why they push the narrative that Somaliland was a full-fledged nation in 1960 and decided to join Somalia after their independence.

 

[Lordilord]

The only way Somaliland can justify its independence today is:

1. Somaliland got recognised as a nation by the international community.
2. Somaliland decided, after independence to join Somalia.
3. Majority of the population agrees and they unite
4. After 1991, Somaliland holds another referendum and separates

If that was the case, I would support Somaliland as it is a legal separation.

However, Somaliland was not recognised and decided to join Somalia before independence.

Many Somalilander leaders know this is true, that is why they push the narrative that Somaliland was a full-fledged nation in 1960 and decided to join Somalia after their independence.

That's the process saaxib, they became a full-fledged country in 1960(check my previous source) and then decided to join Somalia even if they planned it beforehand. It doesn't change the fact that Somaliland had de jure recognition 1960 from the British.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

Since Somaliland is a de-facto country they can take Somaliland to ICJ, basically since they have no enforcement of their rule there.

They can turn to ICJ. You need to understand this, they cannot put SL leadership on trial let alone arrest them. They have no access. ICJ is an option but they will never pursue that and you and me both know why. We wouldn't want the ICJ to recognize Somaliland's claim lol.


Somaliland was independent for 5 days saaxib, they didn't even got to that point but if they wanted to they surely could. Regardless of grooming lol, think logically..

If Somaliland protectorate decided to not join Italian Somaliland then we can assume that they wouldn't have been given independence short term but in the long term they most definitely would have been given their independence. This would've been the better option

1. You need to be a de jure nation to use international facilities such as the ICJ.

2. Somalia cannot put SL on trial, what I meant was that is the only legally realistic option.

3. If Somaliland chose not to be part of Somalia, it would've remained under British rule for a few more decades while they set up Somaliland's political system.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

That's the process saaxib, they became a full-fledged country in 1960(check my previous source) and then decided to join Somalia even if they planned it beforehand. It doesn't change the fact that Somaliland had de jure recognition 1960 from the British.

No, they did not decide afterwards.

It was already decided, the passing of the union laws was a formality that had to be done.

The fact that it was pre-planned already negates it.

It doesn't change the fact that Somaliland had de jure recognition 1960 from the British.

There is no such thing as De Jure recognition, its called De Jure sovereignty.

Somaliland did not have De Jure sovereignty because only a few nations recognised it.

 

[Lordilord]

1. You need to be a de jure nation to use international facilities such as the ICJ.

2. Somalia cannot put SL on trial, what I meant was that is the only legally realistic option.

They can because Somaliland technically operates unlawfully.

3. If Somaliland chose not to be part of Somalia, it would've remained under British rule for a few more decades.

This would've been the better option hands down, Somaliland would remain a British Territory and would be very different from today if this happened. In the long run they would still receive their independence.

 

[Lordilord]

No, they did not decide afterwards.

It was already decided, the passing of the union laws was a formality that had to be done.

The fact that it was pre-planned already negates it.



There is no such thing as De Jure recognition, its called De Jure sovereignty.

Somaliland did not have De Jure sovereignty because only a few nations recognised it.

I am telling you even if it was pre-planned it was a decision Somaliland made. To either stay a British territory or join Italian Somaliland.

They chose to enter into a union with Italian Somaliland but received de-jure recognition before they did enter the union.

Add to it the legalities of the union, which makes it look like Italian Somaliland did a hostile takeover of Somaliland.

Your whole thread is based on that Somaliland could never be fully independent but we both know that is very false.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

@Lordilord

At the end of the day, no-one is stopping Somaliland from wanting independence. There are secessionists from PL, JL, Galmudug and god knows where.

The point is that Somaliland has no case for independence legally because the 5-day country gimmick was a pre-planned sham between all parties.

Yes, Somaliland could've become independent one day but as they chose to unite they destroyed all possibilities of having a legitimate claim to seceding.

 

[Lordilord]

The point is that Somaliland has no case for independence legally because the 5-day country gimmick was a pre-planned sham between all parties.

They actually do, Somaliland legal claim for independence is all they need. If the British did not give Somaliland their independence in 1960, I would agree with you but that did happen.

Yes, Somaliland could've become independent one day but as they chose to unite they destroyed all possibilities of having a legitimate claim to seceding.

Technically not since the current Somaliland state is a successor state of the previous recognized state.

the 5-day country gimmick was a pre-planned sham between all parties

How is this a sham? It was part of the process saaxib.. Bro let's be honest, you tell this to yourself to feel better about the situation... It is important you understand this because you cannot play around with the words. You belittle the part that actually matters the most. Every part is equally important.

The reason as to why SL is not recognized is because the IC is afraid that it might descend the entire horn into chaos and ignite separatist movement not only in East Africa but in the entire continent.

Somaliland legal claim to statehood is unprecedented by any other de-facto state. It is very complex and it stems from the fact that Somaliland was once given de-jure independence. If this did not happen I would agree with everything you have said.

 

[Lordilord]

Whereas the territories in Africa known as the Somaliland Protectorate are under Our protection:
And whereas by treaty, grant, usage, sufferance and other lawful means We have power and jurisdiction in the Somaliland Protectorate:
And whereas it is intended that the Somaliland Protectorate shall become an independent country on the twenty-sixth day of June 1960.

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It all comes back to this, you cannot belittle this event or the fact that it did occur. The whole Somaliland claim stems from this regardless of intentions coupled with questionable legalities of the union itself.

This is the only reason why the international community tolerates Somaliland existing and SL undermining Somalia. You and me both know this.

 

[Rocca Littorio]

They actually do, Somaliland legal claim for independence is all they need. If the British did not give Somaliland their independence in 1960, I would agree with you but that did happen.


Technically not since the current Somaliland state is a successor state of the previous recognized state.


How is this a sham? It was part of the process saaxib.. Bro let's be honest, you tell this to yourself to feel better about the situation... It is important you understand this because you cannot play around with the words. You belittle the part that actually matters the most. Every part is equally important.

The reason as to why SL is not recognized is because the IC is afraid that it might descend the entire horn into chaos and ignite separatist movement not only in East Africa but in the entire continent.

Somaliland legal claim to statehood is unprecedented by any other de-facto state. It is very complex and it stems from the fact that Somaliland was once given de-jure independence. If this did not happen I would agree with everything you have said.

Look sxb,

I broke down each point of what the government of Somaliland uses as their claim of sovereignty.

Even if Somaliland should be independent, it never did nor does hold sufficient sovereignty to claim their independence.

The reason why Somaliland's claim is complex is because the union of two different colonies was never done before. No-one knew how to unite two colonies and to this day no-one knows how to separate them.

Either way, I am not going to convince you and vice versa, so I suggest we agree to disagree.

 

[Lordilord]

The reason why Somaliland's claim is complex is because the union of two different colonies was never done before. No-one knew how to unite two colonies and to this day no-one knows how to separate them.

The reason they did not no how to unite these colonies is the reason why there even is a claim to this day. I'm glad you understand that part, maybe the British made a mistake by giving Somaliland independence before the union.

Nevertheless it still happened and is the entire reason to the whole SL and Somalia situation coupled with the law of the union.

Either way, I am not going to convince you and vice versa, so I suggest we agree to disagree.

I guess we do but since you study law yourself you should understand what I was trying to put forth. Even it it was a mistake it still happened and will be used for a claim. If you want to blame someone, blame the Queen.

 

[Bohol]

The reason is not because of being resourceless it is because the British never bothered to
invest in vital infrastructure when they were around British Somaliland unlike what the
Italians did for south Somalia who invested in farms, roads, trainline and salt mining.
British Somaliland was basically known as "Aden's butcher's shop".

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

Technically not since the current Somaliland state is a successor state of the previous recognized state.

Somaliland is NOT the successor state of British Somaliland. This is a lie of the highest order. Somaliland is largely coterminous with former British Somaliland, but is NOT its legal successor. The FGS is the legal successor of the Somali Republic, the entity that absorbed British Somaliland.

There was NO union between Italian Somaliland and British Somaliland, Italian Somaliland wholly absorbed British Somaliland. It gave British Somaliland a third of parliament seats, and that is all. The law that was applied across the new state was that of Italian Somaliland, and all organs of government were in Mogadishu. British Somaliland gave up its sovereignty completely and out of its own will. It was not a union, but an anschluss.

 

[Lordilord]

Somaliland is NOT the successor state of British Somaliland. This is a lie of the highest order. Somaliland is largely coterminous with former British Somaliland, but is NOT its legal successor. The FGS is the legal successor of the Somali Republic, the entity that absorbed British Somaliland.

There was NO union between Italian Somaliland and British Somaliland, Italian Somaliland wholly absorbed British Somaliland. It gave British Somaliland a third of parliament seats, and that is all. The law that was applied across the new state was that of Italian Somaliland, and all organs of government were in Mogadishu. British Somaliland gave up its sovereignty completely and out of its own will. It was not a union, but an anschluss.

Sure..

 

[whitehartlane]

@Rocca Littorio owned @Lordilord in this thread left and right..

How does one argue against factual information
.. @Lordilord coming to play armed with Edna Adens version of history


Seriously bro, don't make the brother post the L to you, please collect it from the following p.o. box..
PO-862976 New York United Nations

 

[Lordilord]

Here's my response when he said Somaliland wasn't supposed to be recognized..(It still happened)

Whereas the territories in Africa known as the Somaliland Protectorate are under Our protection:
And whereas by treaty, grant, usage, sufferance and other lawful means We have power and jurisdiction in the Somaliland Protectorate:
And whereas it is intended that the Somaliland Protectorate shall become an independent country on the twenty-sixth day of June 1960. --> de jure recognition

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Here's where I ask him why doesn't Somalia go after Somaliland in international court.. I answer the question for him too

Since Somaliland was formerly given recognition and independence by the British they are protected by UN conventions. How come Somalia doesn't take Somaliland to international court? Most countries would do that, it is very simple.

Are they afraid because of the legal significance of being given independence by the British in 1960?? The international court might recognize Somaliland just from this fact. Supported by:

The Montevideo Convention on the Rights and Duties of States treaty signed at Montevideo, Uruguay, on December 26, 1933.

Charter of the United Nations, Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 26 June 1945.

UN Resolution on Recognition by the United Nations of the Representation of a Member State, 14 December 1950

The Convention on the Recognition and Enforcement of Foreign Arbitral Awards, also known as the “New York Arbitration Convention” or the “New York Convention 1958

UN Resolution on United Nations Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples (Adopted by the United Nations General Assembly, 14 December 1960)

Here is the response I would have given if you told me there were no irregularities legally of the union in 1960.

Somaliland and Somalia merged through an international treaty. Irregularities occurred in the ratification of the treaty, however. The two states drafted separate treaties. Somaliland crafted a draft treaty, legislatively approved it, and sent it to the authorities in Mogadishu, the southern capital.

The authorities in Mogadishu never approved the draft. Instead, the southern legislature wrote a significantly different treaty, the Act of Union, which the national legislature made retroactively binding in 1961 after unification was an established fact.8

A subsequent national referendum on the proposed constitution heightened the discrepancy between the two entities: northerners voted against it, whereas southerners voted for it.9

@whitehartlane Politics isn't your thing bro, stick to General section of the forum. At least Rocca tried but you, this is just ceeb saaxib..

I've had people come for me but this shit was weak..

Don't @ me again with this kind of bullsheeit

 

[whitehartlane]

Here's my response when he said Somaliland wasn't supposed to be recognized..(It still happened)



Here's where I ask him why doesn't Somalia go after Somaliland in international court.. I answer the question for him too



Here is the response I would have given if you told me there were no irregularities legally of the union in 1960.


@whitehartlane Politics isn't your thing bro, stick to General section of the forum. At least Rocca tried but you, this is just ceeb saaxib..

I've had people come for me but this shit was weak..

Don't @ me again with this kind of bullsheeit

View attachment 62921

Akhi I am telling you, you got owned..