Big aDNA Update

[niggaibnh]

Beni-Amer sourced their first South Arabian DNA from a northern polity called Ona culture which had nothing to do with the later Habash. Ona was an agropastoralist state and quite different despite receiving influence from separate but very much related to Semites the ones that later would settle in the Axum area and become the pre-Axumites. The 107 generation time stated by this source of yours, roughly coincides with this phenomenon. Later the Beja received other Arabian admixture as well, which was also distinct from Habash influence. Bejas with Arabian DNA got that stuff independently and should not get confused with Habash Tigray highland people.

Is Beja closer to a Habash? Yes, I would think so. This is the same reason I am closer to a Habash than a Somali on G25 as well. This doesn't mean I am actually more Habash than Somali, now does it? It's important to use distances with background information in mind otherwise we make false historical assertions. Beja is closer to Habash because of indirect aligned and related genetics that are closer in proportions, not because they are of the same stock, and that is why Somalis have a higher distance (Somalis lack the Arabian elevated stuff). But in terms of signature, factoring only the Cushitic part, they are closer to us than the Agaw agrarians.

Shimbiris was correct that we had Habash-like influence based on the minor South Arabian DNA, but it had nothing to do with the Axumite people; so not derived from them. We likely got an influence from the agropastoral Cushites of the northern Horn of Africa who had South Arabian influence and received it in the earliest stages when the South Arabians moved to the region. When E-V32 went through Eritrea from the down from Nubian/Eastern Desert region, he would have absorbed this Arabian element to a degree while mixing with these Cushites who had Arabian admixture. This could explain why we have baked in minor Arabian DNA.

More closer = means you’ve high eursian compare to other Somalis?

 

[niggaibnh]

I don’t get it
The higher eursian you then the average Somali = means you’re closer to habesha/afar and their higher you have then habesha/afar = means you’re closer to beja/beni amer.

Following this logic
Someone like shanshiyo who probably has less SSA then the average barawni but higher eursian means = they’re closer to North African then the horn of Africa and north Sudan ? Right they’ve similar result to an average Moroccan but higher SSA

 

[The alchemist]

More closer = means you’ve high eursian compare to other Somalis?

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That is why it serves as a good example of how distance is not always the same as direct signature ancestry when you deal with several layers of inter-related DNA. Got to have a sense when using these tools.

 

[niggaibnh]

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That is why it serves as a good example of how distance is not always the same as direct signature ancestry when you deal with several layers of inter-related DNA. Got to have a sense when using these tools.

Interesting what qabil are you ? Is it recent or old

 

[The alchemist]

Interesting what qabil are you ? Is it recent or old

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[niggaibnh]

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Kinda make sense to be fair.
I’ve seen isaaq with up to 7% Arabian but could I make an argument that dirs themselves might be closer to habesha from geographical view ? They live with afars and Yemenis for centuries

 

[The alchemist]

I don’t get it
The higher eursian you then the average Somali = means you’re closer to habesha/afar and their higher you have then habesha/afar = means you’re closer to beja/beni amer.

Following this logic
Someone like shanshiyo who probably has less SSA then the average barawni but higher eursian means = they’re closer to North African then the horn of Africa and north Sudan ? Right they’ve similar result to an average Moroccan but higher SSA

The logic is. If a Chinese was half Somali, then that person would be half Somali. But a Somali would still be closer to a Habash than the Chinese Somali guy on G25. A Somali has no close relation to a Habash beyond the very ancient components that we call Cushitic. But the Chinese who have a higher distance on G25 because of drifed East Asian DNA is in fact way closer to a Somali based on signature alone. I often see people use G25 distance in a false manner of interpretation.

Some populations might be at higher distances because of absorbed foreign DNA that weights the distance quite a bit, while you have a closer but distinct non-related group that historically didn't have an association with the ancient groups we mean to target, yet could be indirectly related due to constant gene flow. A guy will then say "This random non-related group is closer to these ancient peoples more so than the people who live there today." It's important to have a time-transect perspective, give historical context, and factor in geography. Population genetics is a complex issue, especially in dynamic places.

 

[The alchemist]

Kinda make sense to be fair.
I’ve seen isaaq with up to 7% Arabian but could I make an argument that dirs themselves might be closer to habesha from geographical view ? They live with afars and Yemenis for centuries

Arabian influence might be here and there due to historical contact, of course.

The Habash impact is overplayed and overemphasized, IMHO. Afar has more Somali-like DNA than the other way around. What that really means is complicated because I think we might share ancestral autosomal roots instead of it being recent Somali influence.

If you checked the 23andMe individual I posted who had half Somali in her score. The values observed don't need to be Somali derived, or it could be ancestral Somali but very ancient. It's hard to say. Afar can also regionally be different. The samples we have from Ethiopia as an example are exceedingly Arabian but clearly, you have Afar in Djibouti that looks Somali-adjacent from a typological perspective with their phenotype. The person from 23andMe had ancestry from Ethiopia and Eritrea yet had half her DNA Somali.

She never mentioned she had recent Somali ancestry, and her relative list was mainly Somali and Afar.

The shared stuff seems more like a coastal regional overlappment. There are also potential dynamics that could have happened in the medieval age. However, the shared ancestry would still show based on the regional association even if people didn't mix because it is irrational to assume a close population to us is going to resemble a central Ethiopian variation.

Afar and Saho could in great variation exist within the greater ancient Somali ancestral pool while having characteristics of their respective mixes of the people they neighbor. I have to mention that those groups also could have greater influence from Arabs that came to the region that is not from Habash. It explains why Saho people have Arab-like characteristics in their culture.

 

[Slickster]

@The alchemist on whether or not Illustrative to aDNA, idk. It would be worthwhile emailing them, I’m more than happy to pay but I reckon we’re limited to just qp runs from now. The K36 sim too, ofc.

Any idea of the coverage of Kadruka? Has no one even tried an STR predictor on him for his Y-DNA?

 

[Slickster]

Cushites are from general areas, not only specifically the Eastern Desert. We most likely have much to do with the A-C type site Cultures plus the desertic folks, all interrelated. But that is a much deeper topic.

Sorry, just re-reading the initial post. Could you make a separate thread on this? I would love to hear more and so would everyone else.

 

[The alchemist]

Sorry, just re-reading the initial post. Could you make a separate thread on this? I would love to hear more and so would everyone else.

I'll do that in the near future, Inshallah.

 

[NidarNidar]

I don't think the Somali identity as we know it today was a thing 2000 years ago, or even a 1000 years ago. Think of it like the germanic tribes roaming around north and western europe 2000 years ago, they were related, and spoke a close enough mutually intelligible languages, but they were never united as one group until much later. Somalis 2000 years ago definitely did exist as DNA proves that, but we probably existed as independent groups, in pockets, and we were proper laangaab.

Anyways, the short answer is this little fella is Somali, both his maternal and paternal hapogroups screams Somali to me, not to mention only a Somali would venture out of East Africa and find himself in Serbia. Other horners dont' wander around like gypsies, like we do.
we have Somalis living in Mongolia, Argentina, and Israel today. There was even one Isaq farah who on facebook live from Iceland, showing off his icelandic wife and baby. How the f*ck did he get there?

Funny enough you mention that.

this is really making sense now, my results from illustrate.

 

[saho_em84]

The sample in question is likely a Cushite; I'm 90% certain of this when you factor in the E-V32/L2a1j and the predominant emphasis on Kenyan Iron Age Pastoralist samples regarding modeling. Had they had Somali in that weighted admixture scheme, I am very confident it would have scored overwhelmingly Somali.

A new finding my character fitted whatever DNA that was mustered and the closest distance by far was Somali.

Revising our assumption, the word "Nubian" to me is strictly on geographic region whereas the region contained interrelated groups that exchanged economic synergy. The sample existed before the time the Nobatians were present in the historical record, and fit in a terminal later Meroitic era to potentially

I don't know what genetics the X-Group of Late Meoritic had, honestly.

I think this sample is very Somali-like because of two reasons. First, the primacy of the Kenyan Pastoral Iron Age sample in the model. Secondly, Eurogenes K36 fitted the data within their context and found the sample was closest to Somalis.

Now, granted the quality of the data is rather low, but factoring in the E-V32 and L2a1j, two important uniparentals for Somalis, I would not be surprised if that sample is ancestral Somali, or perhaps coming from an ancestral Somali source somewhere in the Eastern Desert/parts of Nile Valley (1st-2nd cataract), representing a major pool of genetics that migrated to the Somali peninsula between 3500 BP and 2700 BP.



The sample in question is likely a Cushite; I'm 90% certain of this when you factor in the E-V32/L2a1j and the predominant emphasis on Kenyan Iron Age Pastoralist samples regarding modeling. Had they had Somali in that weighted admixture scheme, I am confident it would have scored overwhelmingly Somali-like.

A new finding by a user on an anthro-forum fitted whatever DNA mustered into a K36 Eurogenes scheme, and the closest distance by far was Somali. There is uncertainty to take account of. Low snp count can provide wrong-tailed results, blurring proximal signatures, for example, on the ~20% margins. We can flip this and claim the PCA is wrong while the computation on the distance showing Somali-like values is correct. It can go both ways.

One can speculate that this sample was either from a descendant source population the ancestral Somali E-V32 (not particularly downstream Y-DNA sense, but population extraction) came from in Northeast Africa, or we might be looking at an ancestral Somali sample. That is a possibility, after all.

Generally, people of the Eastern Desert were called Blemmyes or Barbaroi by the Graceo-Romans. Berber is a general term for the Cushitic groups of Northeast Africa. I go by Blemmyes now as a general term for the Cushitic confederacy of the Eastern Desert that existed under one king they called "Isemne" for 900 years between Wadi Hammamat to, at minimum, the 4th cataract, probably all the way to the north of Gash, and into Eritrea during later periods because of how it was the Beja that ruled that land and not Habash peoples in the post-Axumite period as well.

The native pottery of these people was Eastern Desert Ware (EDW), something found among the X-Group culture as the latter lacked any defining artistic expression in their material culture, for the most part, importing their material.

There were no Kenyan Iron Age-proper folks in the Eastern Desert.

Fast forward to 4:46:20
Elephantine us south of egypt border with ethiopia aka kush

 

[saho_em84]

Herodotus in Nubia. Mnemosyne supplements. History and archaeology of classical antiquity, 368

Herodotus in Nubia. Mnemosyne supplements. History and archaeology of classical antiquity, 368 – Bryn Mawr Classical Review

bmcr.brynmawr.edu

 

[MarcusAbdul]

Cushites are from general areas, not only specifically the Eastern Desert. We most likely have much to do with the A-C type site Cultures plus the desertic folks, all interrelated. But that is a much deeper topic.

Fish taboo was a thing but not absolute. Archaeology has uncovered fish remains in Somaliland and Djibouti by ancestral peoples. We have to be careful not to get trapped by dogmatic thinking because there are many exceptions, and humans are not too rigid in their ways.

I'd have to ask, the land of punt and the gash group trace back about 4-5k years and are located in Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, do you think that our ancestors were the ones that were there? The C group seemed to have been established a bit later, but our Y dna traces back to at least 5k years do you think that it's more than one cushitic group that makes up our autosomal sourcing it would make a lot of sense because of our Arabian component which matches to most with specific ethiopian groups.

What do you think about this hypothesis
1. Cushites migrating from the Nubian areas (A-C) group cultures which is where we get our Y-dna
2. Some of them migrating down to the Gash Group/The Land of Punt where there existed Cushites with an Arabian component.

I'm pretty sure that the land of punt/gash groups are simply a southward expansion of the a-group nubians. I'd think that the gash group/the land of punt is a much more earlier migration of such people and there was another migration from the a-c group nubians. Thank you for your knowledge as always

 

[Slickster]

I'd have to ask, the land of punt and the gash group trace back about 4-5k years and are located in Eastern Sudan/Eritrea, do you think that our ancestors were the ones that were there? The C group seemed to have been established a bit later, but our Y dna traces back to at least 5k years do you think that it's more than one cushitic group that makes up our autosomal sourcing it would make a lot of sense because of our Arabian component which matches to most with specific ethiopian groups.

What do you think about this hypothesis
1. Cushites migrating from the Nubian areas (A-C) group cultures which is where we get our Y-dna
2. Some of them migrating down to the Gash Group/The Land of Punt where there existed Cushites with an Arabian component.

I'm pretty sure that the land of punt/gash groups are simply a southward expansion of the a-group nubians. I'd think that the gash group/the land of punt is a much more earlier migration of such people and there was another migration from the a-c group nubians. Thank you for your knowledge as always

Rather than Gash, I think Jebel Mokram is the material culture our direct paternal ancestors came from (JMK has cultural ties to Pan-Grave and C-Group who likely would've been E-V32 along with the dates being a little too late to be authentic GG).

I'm a fan of this graphic, without the Egypt lol. Gash was more similar in material culture to the Pastoral Neolithic and I think their Y-DNA markers would reflect this (all sorts of V22, V6, M293/V1515 and other exotic clades).

 

[MarcusAbdul]

Rather than Gash, I think Jebel Mokram is the material culture our direct paternal ancestors came from (JMK has cultural ties to Pan-Grave and C-Group who likely would've been E-V32 along with the dates being a little too late to be authentic GG).

I'm a fan of this graphic, without the Egypt lol. Gash was more similar in material culture to the Pastoral Neolithic and I think their Y-DNA markers would reflect this (all sorts of V22, V6, M293/V1515 and other exotic clades).
View attachment 312398

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[The alchemist]

Fast forward to 4:46:20
Elephantine us south of egypt border with ethiopia aka kush

Cushite land down from there.

 

[NidarNidar]

Cushite land down from there.

I finally found my people, guy on the right looks like exact copy of my uncle.

covid was rough.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

I think the study and evidence speaks for itself.

Somalis, I call upon you all to return to your motherland of Sudan, back to the Red Sea hills and the northern Nile valley. Leave your lands for the Bantus and Oromos to exterminate each other over. We will reestablish the Kushite kingdom and you will all embrace your Sudanimino. Long live Bilad-Al-Sudan!