Big aDNA Update

[The alchemist]

I don't think the Somali identity as we know it today was a thing 2000 years ago, or even a 1000 years ago. Think of it like the germanic tribes roaming around north and western europe 2000 years ago, they were related, and spoke a close enough mutually intelligible languages, but they were never united as one group until much later. Somalis 2000 years ago definitely did exist as DNA proves that, but we probably existed as independent groups, in pockets, and we were proper laangaab.

This is not true. They had an ethnic conception because in anthropology you are an ethnic group if you consider a set of clans in-group and the rest out-group. By genetic fact alone, Somalis constantly "intra" mixed but strictly did not mix with the rest. People back then spoke the same language dialect, had the same genes, and were even much closer in the Y-DNA front because of less differentiation. Etc. And all this was possible because they were not some fragmented groups living away from each other but part of a pretty excessive network of the ancient agro-pastoral-trading economy. If it was as you described, we would see higher noticeable structuralism and evidence of cross-mixing between several groups in the genetic data of several signatures that we would be able to pick out, and our genetics today would seem like a damn tapestry of sub-signature of marked regional variation rather than homogenized.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if you took this particular conversation somewhere else if you want to expand upon it because it will deviate from the topic of the thread into a topic that already carries demonstrable answers. And I have already written extensive posts with a lot of scientific and anthropological proof to back them up. Somalis had a continuity that went beyond 2000 years ago despite not calling themselves "Somalis," emphasized by the brute facts that prove the people of the region considered themselves as the same group.

 

[The alchemist]

Why is it that somalis are a better model for this sample? Is it because we're closely related or could it be that somalis are overall a better model for proto-cushites? Also is this similar to the beni amer who appears to be closely related to somalis?

Beni-Amer sourced their first South Arabian DNA from a northern polity called Ona culture which had nothing to do with the later Habash. Ona was an agropastoralist state and quite different despite receiving influence from separate but very much related to Semites the ones that later would settle in the Axum area and become the pre-Axumites. The 107 generation time stated by this source of yours, roughly coincides with this phenomenon. Later the Beja received other Arabian admixture as well, which was also distinct from Habash influence. Bejas with Arabian DNA got that stuff independently and should not get confused with Habash Tigray highland people.

Is Beja closer to a Habash? Yes, I would think so. This is the same reason I am closer to a Habash than a Somali on G25 as well. This doesn't mean I am actually more Habash than Somali, now does it? It's important to use distances with background information in mind otherwise we make false historical assertions. Beja is closer to Habash because of indirect aligned and related genetics that are closer in proportions, not because they are of the same stock, and that is why Somalis have a higher distance (Somalis lack the Arabian elevated stuff). But in terms of signature, factoring only the Cushitic part, they are closer to us than the Agaw agrarians.

Shimbiris was correct that we had Habash-like influence based on the minor South Arabian DNA, but it had nothing to do with the Axumite people; so not derived from them. We likely got an influence from the agropastoral Cushites of the northern Horn of Africa who had South Arabian influence and received it in the earliest stages when the South Arabians moved to the region. When E-V32 went through Eritrea from the down from Nubian/Eastern Desert region, he would have absorbed this Arabian element to a degree while mixing with these Cushites who had Arabian admixture. This could explain why we have baked in minor Arabian DNA.

 

[Himmler]

Beni-Amer sourced their first South Arabian DNA from a northern polity called Ona culture which had nothing to do with the later Habash.

There is no evidence for this claim whatsoever, Ona culture had little South Arabian influence and was mostly a local development, it is very unlikely the Ona people had enough Arabian ancestry to account for any significant portion of the Beni Amer’s Arabian ancestry.
Also the Ona culture is restricted to the greater Asmara area and shows links to other pre-Axumite sites found in Eritrea and Tigray, so to say they had nothing to do with Habesha people but are linked to the Beja is completely baseless and ridiculous, show me an Ona site in the Eastern desert.

“Here, we have archaeological evidence suggesting significant connections with ancient communities in Akele Guzay and Tigray more than 100 km to the south. We can see a range of similar cultural expressions embodied in artifact, settlement, and subsistence traditions. Yet there are also vital differences. Exploring such similarities and differences in relation to environmental and local culture histories will be crucial for exploring larger questions. Why did a fully agropastoral tradition appear in the Greater Asmara area in the early first millennium BC seemingly with such rapidity? Why were communities on the Asmara Plateau abandoned in the fourth century BC? Why do signs of elite identity, often exhibited with symbols and forms derived from South Arabian antecedents, appear in a limited number of site areas in the northern Horn, but are largely missing in the archaeology of the Greater Asmara area and other regions”

 

[Garaad diinle]

Beni-Amer sourced their first South Arabian DNA from a northern polity called Ona culture which had nothing to do with the later Habash. Ona was an agropastoralist state and quite different despite receiving influence from separate but very much related to Semites the ones that later would settle in the Axum area and become the pre-Axumites. The 107 generation time stated by this source of yours, roughly coincides with this phenomenon. Later the Beja received other Arabian admixture as well, which was also distinct from Habash influence. Bejas with Arabian DNA got that stuff independently and should not get confused with Habash Tigray highland people.

Is Beja closer to a Habash? Yes, I would think so. This is the same reason I am closer to a Habash than a Somali on G25 as well. This doesn't mean I am actually more Habash than Somali, now does it? It's important to use distances with background information in mind otherwise we make false historical assertions. Beja is closer to Habash because of indirect aligned and related genetics that are closer in proportions, not because they are of the same stock, and that is why Somalis have a higher distance (Somalis lack the Arabian elevated stuff). But in terms of signature, factoring only the Cushitic part, they are closer to us than the Agaw agrarians.

I wasn't talking about wither habasha and beni amer are the same people or that they share a common ancestor instead i was addressing their genetic distance from habasha based on their autosomal/admixture.

Shimbiris was correct that we had Habash-like influence based on the minor South Arabian DNA, but it had nothing to do with the Axumite people; so not derived from them. We likely got an influence from the agropastoral Cushites of the northern Horn of Africa who had South Arabian influence and received it in the earliest stages when the South Arabians moved to the region. When E-V32 went through Eritrea from the down from Nubian/Eastern Desert region, he would have absorbed this Arabian element to a degree while mixing with these Cushites who had Arabian admixture. This could explain why we have baked in minor Arabian DNA.

Is this your explanation on this so called shared ancestry component between somalis and beni amer? A southward movement of an ancestral group to beni amer? Finally going back to the original question why are somalis a better model for this "nubian" sample?

 

[The alchemist]

I wasn't talking about wither habasha and beni amer are the same people or that they share a common ancestor instead i was addressing their genetic distance from habasha based on their autosomal/admixture.

Many people make that association so I wanted to further elaborate. The genetic distance is merely proportionality of Eurasian enrichment of the Arabian kind as well, so it was a relevant addition. They're not associated directly but merely indirectly similar to how you share DNA with an Agaw you have no direct relation to because of deeper shared DNA. In that respect, because the distance levels are weighted by drift, the Beni-Amer is closer to a Habash. Similar to how I am closer to a Habash despite having nothing to do with them.

Is this your explanation on this so called shared ancestry component between somalis and beni amer? A southward movement of an ancestral group to beni amer? Finally going back to the original question why are somalis a better model for this "nubian" sample?

That is not what I said. Beni-Amer is a far younger population but the general southern Cushites of the Eastern Desert would have that type of DNA, and since logically E-V32 migrated through that region, it merely is a big possibility some of the Arabian got mediated in case admixture happened between the Cushitic groups, which we know happened.

We don't know if this sample was "Nubian." As stated on this very thread, the DNA of the guy, at least from what we can ascertain is that it coincides with something Somali-like. Peep the nuance. Your questions are probably answered in this very thread, by the way. There were people in the Eastern Desert in the ancient past, and probably to this very day within several Beja subs, that were/are genetically very close to Somalis. Beja minus the Arabian elements is signature-wise practically Somali-like.

 

[Himmler]

instead i was addressing their genetic distance from habasha based on their autosomal/admixture.

Eurasian-SSA split is extremely deep, so genetic distances are greatly influenced by Eurasian-SSA proportions, this is why many Reer Xamar people would be technically closer to Eritreans and Ethiopians than actual Somalis because they’re Eurasian-SSA proportions are more similar.

Somalis are genetically closer to Moroccans than to Yemenis and Egyptians for this very reason, even though we have had a lot more interactions with Yemenis and Egyptians than Moroccans but Moroccans Eurasian-SSA and proportions are closer to ours.

There has also been a lot of mixing between the Beja and Ethio Semitic groups like the Tigre and to a lesser to extent the Tigrinya people

 

[Reformed J]

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[MarcusAbdul]

Eurasian-SSA split is extremely deep, so genetic distances are greatly influenced by Eurasian-SSA proportions, this is why many Reer Xamar people would be technically closer to Eritreans and Ethiopians than actual Somalis because they’re Eurasian-SSA proportions are more similar.

Somalis are genetically closer to Moroccans than to Yemenis and Egyptians for this very reason, even though we have had a lot more interactions with Yemenis and Egyptians than Moroccans but Moroccans Eurasian-SSA and proportions are closer to ours.

There has also been a lot of mixing between the Beja and Ethio Semitic groups like the Tigre and to a lesser to extent the Tigrinya people

Closer is a key word. The Average Moroccan is about 70-75 Eurasian and 20-25 SSA, they have more SSA than Yemenis and Egyptians in general which is why they are closer. Overall they seem to be predominantly "Western Eurasian" with a significant native african component. Horners on the other hand are much more intermediate, which is demonstrated on pca charts and what not.

The Eurasian-SSA parts of a maghrebi is also quite different compared to Yemenis and Egyptians, especially Northern ones who have on average 40+ Anatolian Neolithic Farmer, certain ones reach 50+. Their IBM is also distinctive as they have the highest rates of it.

 

[The alchemist]

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Here is the K12 -> sim coordinate:

I15499,-0.299653,0.109166,-0.030642,-0.074393,0.003656,-0.048278,0.028559,-0.046367,0.128159,-0.075243,-0.004364,-0.008275,0.018483,-0.000793,0.013776,0.000880,0.002760,0.005165,0.000935,0.001060,0.001096,0.003432,-0.000732,-0.000085,-0.000792

They let a sample with ~3.5% coverage yet said the modern Somali datasets were too low quality. I told you they were on some bull.

 

[Melancholic]

Here is the K12 -> sim coordinate:
View attachment 308983



They let a sample with ~3.5% coverage yet said the modern Somali datasets were too low quality. I told you they were on some bull.

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[The alchemist]

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Cushitic:KEN_Pastoral_N,-0.3004929,0.0954598,-0.0263607,-0.0737732,0.0007384,-0.0365346,-0.0094944,-0.0014769,0.1220598,-0.0880928,-0.0057811,-0.0097713,-0.0017243,-0.0018993,0.0229232,-0.0209888,0.0222697,-0.0004942,0.0076929,-0.0014882,0.0019467,0.00298,-0.0040671,-0.0013375,-0.0010058

 

[Himmler]

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What about Kadruka? Can you ask him about that?

 

[Reformed J]

What about Kadruka? Can you ask him about that?

Kadruka was very damaged and had very poor coverage. They used novel methods to genotype him. Where as I15499's autosomal hits were 40,025/1,233,013= ~3%, it was worth while trying to get coordinates for him, tbh it barely made the cut for analysis in this paper (40,000 was the qpAdm cut off).

 

[The alchemist]

Kadruka was very damaged and had very poor coverage. They used novel methods to genotype him. Where as I15499's autosomal hits were 40,025/1,233,013= ~3%, it was worth while trying to get coordinates for him, tbh it barely made the cut for analysis in this paper (40,000 was the qpAdm cut off).

I contacted the head researcher back in January and got this response:

I'm sure one of the nerds can do something with the raw data, as they contrived these simulated coordinates.

 

[Himmler]

Kadruka was very damaged and had very poor coverage. They used novel methods to genotype him. Where as I15499's autosomal hits were 40,025/1,233,013= ~3%, it was worth while trying to get coordinates for him, tbh it barely made the cut for analysis in this paper (40,000 was the qpAdm cut off).

Hmm that’s disappointing, I or someone else on here could probably run some models on qp whenever I get the chance

 

[Reformed J]

I contacted the head researcher back in January and got this response:
View attachment 309003
I'm sure one of the nerds can do something with the raw data, as they contrived these simulated coordinates.

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[Revolutionarry]

This is not true. They had an ethnic conception because in anthropology you are an ethnic group if you consider a set of clans in-group and the rest out-group. By genetic fact alone, Somalis constantly "intra" mixed but strictly did not mix with the rest. People back then spoke the same language dialect, had the same genes, and were even much closer in the Y-DNA front because of less differentiation. Etc. And all this was possible because they were not some fragmented groups living away from each other but part of a pretty excessive network of the ancient agro-pastoral-trading economy. If it was as you described, we would see higher noticeable structuralism and evidence of cross-mixing between several groups in the genetic data of several signatures that we would be able to pick out, and our genetics today would seem like a damn tapestry of sub-signature of marked regional variation rather than homogenized.

Anyway, I would appreciate it if you took this particular conversation somewhere else if you want to expand upon it because it will deviate from the topic of the thread into a topic that already carries demonstrable answers. And I have already written extensive posts with a lot of scientific and anthropological proof to back them up. Somalis had a continuity that went beyond 2000 years ago despite not calling themselves "Somalis," emphasized by the brute facts that prove the people of the region considered themselves as the same group.

okay boss.

 

[Slickster]

Here is the K12 -> sim coordinate:
View attachment 308983



They let a sample with ~3.5% coverage yet said the modern Somali datasets were too low quality. I told you they were on some bull.

“They” - just Davidski. I remember him being way more hesitant than usual to make the Kulubnarti coordinates too. Weird.

At some point it’s gonna have to be one of us doing this. We can’t be reliant on the rest of the community when they really couldn’t care less for the continent. Forget the DaNubian, Kadruka has been rotting away for a year and a half with absolutely nothing done to it.

 

[The alchemist]

My bad, guys. I messed up with the K12 coordinate by running it on G25 because I thought they had converted it based on the labeling without additional information. You needed to have it on K12 Eurogenes sources. The K36 ran on the G25 dataset is correct. The sample seems extremely Somali-like. All the hunter-gatherer stuff disappeared.

Additional values of Natufian, Dinka, and extra are not necessarily indicative of foreign admixture whatsoever. That could be the range of internal signature dimensionality. Similar to how we have samples today that show higher values of Taforalt, Saharan, Natufian, etc. It is not suggestive of admixture, instead simply showing a tailed expression of specific internal differences that stochastically shift slightly from person to person.

Again, this sample could wholly be of Eastern Desert origin, but it vindicates my claim that at least a significant portion of those confederacies was Somali-like and serves as a hypothetical source population for the Y-DNA founder-effect likely that brought on autosomal influence.

 

[The alchemist]

“They” - just Davidski. I remember him being way more hesitant than usual to make the Kulubnarti coordinates too. Weird.

At some point it’s gonna have to be one of us doing this. We can’t be reliant on the rest of the community when they really couldn’t care less for the continent. Forget the DaNubian, Kadruka has been rotting away for a year and a half with absolutely nothing done to it.

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