Aussie revert who became ISIS propagandist left Islam after

[Kratos]

since its ramadan i will refrain from hurling abuse at this man's iq, however if he needed to learn aramaic to find out about that story, what then about our prophet saw who only knew arabic and couldn't read nor write, where would he get this story from? make it make sense man...

Muhammad PBUH was illiterate and not at all erudite so I highly doubt he plagiarised any academic account, let alone one in a foreign language.

I don’t particularly mind people criticising Islam but this one is probably the least logical.

It's incorrect to say he plagiarised the Syriac Romance but his illiteracy doesn't mean anything. These stories were passed around both in written form and orally. They were widely accessible during the time period and they had already been translated into several languages, including Arabic. The original was composed in Greek during the 4th Century. The account given in the Quran is also significantly shorter and less detailed than the Syriac recension so this supports the oral transmission of the text.

 

[Kratos]

Islam has a built in mechanism that allows it to retcon any of these shared narratives by claiming those people (historical source of the narrative) original received the same story of tawheed but it was ultimately corrupted to become Zoroastrianism, rabbinic Judaism, Christianity, etc..

This one is quite problematic though because we can actually reliably trace this story to its source and we know it's originally Roman propaganda about Alexander.

 

[Periplus]

It's incorrect to say he plagiarised the Syriac Romance but his illiteracy doesn't mean anything. These stories were passed around both in written form and orally. They were widely accessible during the time period and they had already been translated into several languages, including Arabic. The original was composed in Greek during the 4th Century. The account given in the Quran is also significantly shorter and less detailed than the Syriac recension so this supports the oral transmission of the text.

He was the equivalent of reer baadiyo. Furthermore, it used to take a year to travel to the Levant and back, meaning that rarely happened.

So I generally doubt that a story as obscure as Alexander the Great would reach Mecca and then be translated to Arabic for the benefit of an illiterate man.

Also even this legend spread naturally to the Arab peninsula, one would have to know who Alexander the Great is to be impressed. Muhammad PBUH wouldn’t have been one of those people.

 

[Kratos]

Dhu-l Qarnayn is not Alexander, his battles have been documented, so if he erected a wall around gog and Magog it would be known, anyway he was later discredited by later Islamic scholars after they found out about his homosexual activities, the figure Dhu-l Qarnayn is an ancient figure he could be Cyrus who was a just ruler and is known in the bible but his numerous battles are not documented

There is absolutely nothing connecting him with Cyrus. The early Muslims openly identified him with Alexander because it was quite obvious and they were well aware of the narratives that circulated in that time period. They only started to move away from this view because of its obvious theological implications which were only realized later. The identification of him with Cyrus is very recent and it's not based on any evidence, it's simply a denial of him being identified with Alexander due to theological reasoning.

 

[Kratos]

He was the equivalent of reer baadiyo. Furthermore, it used to take a year to travel to the Levant and back, meaning that rarely happened.

So I generally doubt that a story as obscure as Alexander the Great would reach Mecca and then be translated to Arabic for the benefit of an illiterate man.

Also even this legend spread naturally to the Arab peninsula, one would have to know who Alexander the Great is to be impressed. Muhammad PBUH wouldn’t have been one of those people.

Except it wasn't an obscure story though. It was VERY well known and widespread, this point needs to be stressed. And no one would have need to translate it to him, it was already known and widespread in the Arabian peninsula probably before he was even born.

Furthermore the story about Dhul-Qarnayn starts like this (18:8):

وَيَسْـَٔلُونَكَ عَن ذِى ٱلْقَرْنَيْنِ ۖ قُلْ سَأَتْلُوا۟ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْهُ ذِكْرًا
They will ask thee of Dhu'l-Qarneyn. Say: "I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him."

The people around him already knew of this story.

 

[Kratos]

He was the equivalent of reer baadiyo. Furthermore, it used to take a year to travel to the Levant and back, meaning that rarely happened.

So I generally doubt that a story as obscure as Alexander the Great would reach Mecca and then be translated to Arabic for the benefit of an illiterate man.

Also even this legend spread naturally to the Arab peninsula, one would have to know who Alexander the Great is to be impressed. Muhammad PBUH wouldn’t have been one of those people.

Also he really wasn't as isolated from civilization and knowledge as modern Muslims make him out to be. First of all he was a merchant. But secondly you even have the Islamic tradition itself showing how he wasn't isolated from other civilisations and their knowledge, as made evident in this hadith:

Judhāmah bint Wahb, sister of ‘Ukkāshah, reported: I was there when the Messenger of Allah (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said to some people: "I was about to forbid sexual intercourse during the breastfeeding period until I considered that the Romans and the Persians do it without any harm done to their children thereby."

Just one example but the idea that he was completely isolated from other civilisations and their knowledge is inconsistent even with the Islamic tradition itself. This idea was made popular in more recent times in order to argue the problematic scientific miracles in the Quran narrative but it's not really true. A lot of daaes have abandoned this reasoning nowadays for obvious reasons

 

[Kratos]

how would a similiar aramaic story disprove the Quran?

Because we know the Aramaic story is based on ancient fake news/Roman propaganda but it has been incorporated into the Quran

 

[World]

I’m tired of this forum harbouring so many Murtads when they are non existent in real life I can’t even browse this forum without coming across these people. Please leave the Somali community and all of us alone, we don’t want you and you can never befriend a Somali in real life.

 

[greznigrezni]

It's an undeniable fact that extremists are outright lunatics. How can be okay with killing, so many Muslims? The best case is to assume they crazy people who think their deeds in the Dunya mean nothing on Judgement Day.

 

[tyrannicalmanager]

This one is quite problematic though because we can actually reliably trace this story to its source and we know it's originally Roman propaganda about Alexander.

It's incorrect to say he plagiarised the Syriac Romance but his illiteracy doesn't mean anything. These stories were passed around both in written form and orally. They were widely accessible during the time period and they had already been translated into several languages, including Arabic. The original was composed in Greek during the 4th Century. The account given in the Quran is also significantly shorter and less detailed than the Syriac recension so this supports the oral transmission of the text.

The Arabic translation of Alexander Romance came after the completion of the Quran...
also it's very convenient how when the stories don't line up it's because of "Oral transmision" forgeting that some of the account in the Quran predate it.

 

[Kratos]

The Arabic translation of Alexander Romance came after the completion of the Quran...
also it's very convenient how when the stories don't line up it's because of "Oral transmision" forgeting that some of the account in the Quran predate it.

I meant that the fables of Alexander in general were available in Arabic; I wasn't talking about the 7th century recension of the Syriac Alexander Romance. Yes that translation came later because the version we have in full today is contemporary with the Quran but the Syriac text relies on earlier traditions. The original was written in Greek in the 4th century AD and there is strong evidence that it was updated in the 6th century. AFAIK the original doesn't have the Gog and Magog bit but the story of Alexander building a giant iron wall to keep out Gog and Magog can still be traced back as a legend that developed in the Roman empire during the 1st century AD and we know this through the writings of Josephus. These fables in various forms were transmitted widely across the Near East in many languages during the late antique and the Roman emperor Heraclius further disseminated them as war-time propaganda. Nothing in the Quran predates these traditions. There are no accounts in the Quran that did not already exist before.

And no the story does line up exactly with the legends, it's just less detailed and shorter than the Syriac texts (which is several pages long) but the narrative structures and the main events that occur are the same. But then again the whole Quran is like that. If you look at all the stories told in the Quran that are also found in the Bible and other Near-Eastern literature, the Quranic account is usually much shorter and far more vague.

 

[geeljire80s]

LOL. He fucked up, but I can also understand that he was probably in a very vulnerable situation where he was looking for a meaning of life in the wrong places.

Of course Islam is manmade like all the other Abrahamic religions... it didn't take me joining ISIS to learn that. A lot of these reverts are infatuated with the special attention and privilge they get from the muslim community.

There are many things mentioned in Islam that is from Arab pagan culture, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, and Judaism. The concept of "Jinns" is from Arab paganism. A good chunk of the prophets are from Judaism (which probably plagiarized an older religion) which was then plagiarized by Christianity.

Religions are manmade. Religions claiming to have been revealed from god are mostly man made as well... Arabs created Islam to have something authentic to their region. God is real, religions are social constructs.

there is special forums dedicated to atheist losers like you
why don't you join those spaces instead of "plagiarising" us with your plagiarised bullshit rhetoric

 

[Mount23]

I meant that the fables of Alexander in general were available in Arabic; I wasn't talking about the 7th century recension of the Syriac Alexander Romance. Yes that translation came later because the version we have in full today is contemporary with the Quran but the Syriac text relies on earlier traditions. The original was written in Greek in the 4th century AD and there is strong evidence that it was updated in the 6th century. AFAIK the original doesn't have the Gog and Magog bit but the story of Alexander building a giant iron wall to keep out Gog and Magog can still be traced back as a legend that developed in the Roman empire during the 1st century AD and we know this through the writings of Josephus. These fables in various forms were transmitted widely across the Near East in many languages during the late antique and the Roman emperor Heraclius further disseminated them as war-time propaganda. Nothing in the Quran predates these traditions. There are no accounts in the Quran that did not already exist before.

And no the story does line up exactly with the legends, it's just less detailed and shorter than the Syriac texts (which is several pages long) but the narrative structures and the main events that occur are the same. But then again the whole Quran is like that. If you look at all the stories told in the Quran that are also found in the Bible and other Near-Eastern literature, the Quranic account is usually much shorter and far more vague.

No Muslim scholar has identified Dhul Qarnayn positively, please stop associating the great Dhul Qarnayn to a polytheistic homosexual like Alexander Great

The main features of Dhul Qarnayn as mentioned in the Quran is that
i.He had two-horned
ii.he was given mean to achieve his objective.
iii. he was the servant of a true God
iv. He made his first expedition to the West,then the East
v. He built the wall between the two mountains
From the above, we can straight away remove Alexander the Great as a candidate for Dzul Qarnayn as he died young and could not has done much. He was also a polytheist who worshiped Greek gods. He first expedition was toward the East as he was himself from the West

 

[Removed]

Because we know the Aramaic story is based on ancient fake news/Roman propaganda but it has been incorporated into the Quran

But Josephus(Jewish scholar) being a propagandist for the Romans is a historical assumption. Is there a reason you refer to him as that?

Your origin point for this storyline being Abrahamic fits pretty regularly with most Islamic stories as it is all within the same lineage. Even if it wasnt Abrahamic plenty of stories were passed down (although bastardized in our paradigm) and existed prior to the revealing of the quran like adam the first man etc.

Would you happen to have a translation of Josephus writings?

 

[Omar del Sur]

Just as an example, both the Syriac Alexander Romance and the Quran have a passage about their protagonist erecting a wall of iron and copper to keep out Gog and Magog. The Syriac text attributes this to Alexander and the Quran attributes this to Dhul-Qarnayn (two-horned one AKA Alexander). This narrative can be traced back to the 1st Century AD through the writings of Josephus (a Jewish Roman historian). He identified the wall as the Caspian Gates who he claimed was built by Alexander to keep out Gog and Magog (whom he identified as the Scythians). This was simply pro-Roman propaganda but you find this exact narrative in the Quran except the Quran refers to him by his common iconography instead.

"As expected, their claim that the Quran plagiarised this story is completely false. The story that is found in the Alexander Romance is from a Syriac manuscript of the 17th century, one thousand years after the Prophet Muhammad SAW. Historians who have studied the manuscripts have said that the story of gog and magog is not found in the original greek manuscript present with us today.

“The episode of Alexander’s building a wall against Gog and Magog, however, is not found in the oldest Greek, Latin, Armenian and Syriac versions of the Romance.”

(Donzel, Emeri J. van; Schmidt, Andrea Barbara (2010). Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam’s Quest for Alexander’s Wall.)"



I don't know- maybe you can use your knowledge of how to read ancient Syriac texts to confirm this.... or are you just attacking Islam based on stuff you read on the internet? you've probably never even read the Alexander Romance in English, much less Syriac.

 

[Periplus]

"As expected, their claim that the Quran plagiarised this story is completely false. The story that is found in the Alexander Romance is from a Syriac manuscript of the 17th century, one thousand years after the Prophet Muhammad SAW. Historians who have studied the manuscripts have said that the story of gog and magog is not found in the original greek manuscript present with us today.

“The episode of Alexander’s building a wall against Gog and Magog, however, is not found in the oldest Greek, Latin, Armenian and Syriac versions of the Romance.”

(Donzel, Emeri J. van; Schmidt, Andrea Barbara (2010). Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam’s Quest for Alexander’s Wall.)"



I don't know- maybe you can use your knowledge of how to read ancient Syriac texts to confirm this.... or are you just attacking Islam based on stuff you read on the internet? you've probably never even read the Alexander Romance in English, much less Syriac.

Why did you start off your post with a quotation mark as if you’re quoting someone.

It can’t be a typo as the letter “A” is on the opposite side of the keyboard from quotation marks.

This means either you copied your comment from somebody on the internet or…..

Someone sent you this pre-written response in quotation marks and you forgot to remove it before posting.

Example:

Hey Omar, respond to the post with “As expected, their claim that the Quran copied this story is false….”

Jaasuus confirmed.

 

[Genie]

17 years when he read Surah Al-Kahf in more detail while in jail.

'In prison, he began to study the Quran in greater detail, and focused on the aspects that most puzzled him. Among these was the figure called Dhu-l Qarnayn, “the two-horned one,” who appears in the Quran’s 18th chapter and is believed by many to refer to Alexander the Great. Cerantonio did not see a resemblance between Dhu-l Qarnayn and the Alexander of history—but he noted similarities between Dhu-l Qarnayn and a heavily fabulized version of Alexander’s story written in Aramaic. He considered that the Aramaic version may have plagiarized the Quran, but after acquiring a copy of the Aramaic and translating it for himself, he determined that the reverse was more likely. (“I always knew that being proficient in Aramaic would one day prove useful.”)

Realizing that Dhu-l Qarnayn was not at all a real person but was rather based on a fictional account of Alexander the Great instantly left me with only one possible conclusion: The Quran was not divinely inspired,” he wrote. It had taken Alexander the Great fan fiction as fact. “Of course I would have preferred to have discovered all that 17 years ago and avoided much trouble.”

Why an ISIS Propagandist Abandoned Islam

“Seeing individuals dedicate themselves to tyrannical death cults led by suicidal maniacs is bad enough. Knowing that I may have contributed to their choices is terrible.”

www.theatlantic.com

LOOL he's an idiot every isis member is a retard.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Why did you start off your post with a quotation mark as if you’re quoting someone.

It can’t be a typo as the letter “A” is on the opposite side of the keyboard from quotation marks.

This means either you copied your comment from somebody on the internet or…..

Someone sent you this pre-written response in quotation marks and you forgot to remove it before posting.

Example:

Hey Omar, respond to the post with “As expected, their claim that the Quran copied this story is false….”

Jaasuus confirmed.

I start the post with a quotation mark because I am quoting the article I linked.

 

[Removed]

Heres a more in-depth article on this topic
https://hejaziphilosophorian.home.b...rnayn-a-plagiarism-of-the-alexander-romances/

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Periplus

I see you did the "hmm" thinking reaction in response to my cutting through your lie. You don't have any shame in lying?

here is my post:

"As expected, their claim that the Quran plagiarised this story is completely false. The story that is found in the Alexander Romance is from a Syriac manuscript of the 17th century, one thousand years after the Prophet Muhammad SAW. Historians who have studied the manuscripts have said that the story of gog and magog is not found in the original greek manuscript present with us today.

“The episode of Alexander’s building a wall against Gog and Magog, however, is not found in the oldest Greek, Latin, Armenian and Syriac versions of the Romance.”

(Donzel, Emeri J. van; Schmidt, Andrea Barbara (2010). Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam’s Quest for Alexander’s Wall.)"

here is the exact same words in the article I was quoting- which is linked right there in the post

you could have verified that if you had simply read the link. you should have shame when it comes to lying about people.