A Happy Coming-Out-Story for A Somali Ex-Muslim

[Dhabaal]

The name ''Ex-Muslim'' reeks of bitterness.

Could you imagine after divorcing your wife you would adopt the name ''Ex-husband'' and carry that as a title. Show up on television and talk about how horrible cruel and vicious your so-called former wife was? and how supposedly your happy about your divorce

''I am liberated and free, i will no longer listen to that horrible witch. Toss in a few lies to exaggerate and advance the story for audience appeal.''

If you are free and moved on from your wife , then why are you preoccupied with bashing her and talking about the relationship that ended?

''Ex-Muslisms'' act like victims of a love affair gone wrong. They are just sad people, full of anger, bitterness and resentment.

I sometimes pity them. Some of them like Ayaan Hirsi are tools, which are moved into place to give authenticity to whatever beef the West has with Islam. Using their so called ''Ex-Muslim'' status as a better tool for bashing Muslims over the head. Being able to say all the things their western pay masters wish they could say.

 

[VixR]

You are saying Atheism is a formed ideology and religion. LOOOL!!

You can disbelief in God and still engage in this Islamic rituals & practices they have cultural value behind them like any.

Cultures are just collection of proven or tested methods of leaving life meaningfully. It doesn't become meaningless just because you doubt the existence of God.

Unless you are leaning on a Nihilistic angel

Atheism is not an ideology or religion.

Islam is.

In a word, what you're referring to is the concept of being a cultural Muslim. The 'cultural Muslim' engages in some ways, but doesn't actually practice the tenets, nor necessarily believe in them. Example, iftar with the relatives yet hasn't fasted Ramadan as one of the central tenets. Prayed Janaza over a family or relative member as the only form funeral available. Went to a nikah as the form of wedding service in the community etc.

The cultural Muslim (backassward funbits type 'practice', little faith or none) is usually the Non-practicing Muslim (no practice, faith ) minus the faith.

An atheist can choose to be a so-called cultural Muslim, but I find it hard to believe you can't make out why an atheist would stop 'practicing' upon losing faith altogether, and not make a show of it. Most ppl who engage in these rituals hold them of divine value, and that value has been lost in disbelief. It's completely dependant on the person in question.

This is a whole other conversation altogether.

 

[Dhabaal]

Atheism is not an ideology or religion.

Islam is.

In a word, what you're referring to is the concept of being a cultural Muslim. The 'cultural Muslim' engages in some ways, but doesn't actually practice the tenets, nor necessarily believe in them. Example, iftar with the relatives yet hasn't fasted Ramadan as one of the central tenets. Prayed Janaza over a family or relative member as the only form funeral available. Went to a nikah etc.

Aren't you keen on affirming the obvious.

OFC! Atheism is not ideology or a religion. It is the mere act of disbelieving in God.

But thats my point is that the mere act of disbelieving in ''God'' does not prevent you from being ''Culturally Muslim''.

You guys think atheism is a central identity which defines your value formation and habits & traits. As well as your ideological thinking.

The cultural Muslim (backassward funbits type 'practice', little faith or none) is usually the Non-practicing Muslim (no practice, faith ) minus the faith.

An atheist can choose to be a so-called cultural Muslim, but I find it hard to believe you can't make out why an atheist would stop practicing upon losing faith.

This is a whole other conversation altogether.

What is backward or not is specific to which culture view point you judge from. Why? because that is Ethnocentric which is judging people based on your traits, habits, and defining everyone else's on the outside of those virtues.

I can't judge a specific culture from the cultural standards of Europe, as morality is relative, it's not something you can prove by mere logic and no universally agreed Morality exists.

I think Cadaan European people are the most backward, unclean dirty pink pigs, bunch of alcoholic narco addicted immoral child molesters, perverts, with no communal foundation.

But that is strictly a cultural worldview not an empirical fact.

Imagine if a European person viewed himself/herslelf from the gaze & reality of Somalis. He would be just as self-rejecting as you are in your interpretation of Muslims and Somalis.

Not considering the view point of another culture is bigotted.

 

[VixR]

Your affinity for the cultural Atheist Muslim makes me wonder how open you are to the [engaged] gay Muslim, the feminist Muslim, etc, and other weird, contradictory manifestations we've seen that are contrary to the faith, which the typical Muslim is repulsed by?

 

[The_Cosmos]

You are saying Atheism is a formed ideology and religion. LOOOL!!

You can disbelief in God and still engage in this Islamic rituals & practices they have cultural value behind them like any.

Cultures are just collection of proven or tested methods of leaving life meaningfully. It doesn't become meaningless just because you doubt the existence of God.

Unless you are leaning on a Nihilistic angel

Nobody implied atheism is an ideology or a religion. That would defeat the definition of atheism.

When somebody decides to abandon a religion, they also abandon much of the cultural practices that are intertwined with that religion. Wearing the hijab is an Islamic cultural practice and thus would not make sense for a murtada to continue wearing it unless she was hiding her disbelief. You're literally trying to separate Islam from the culture that comes with it. That's highly dishonest.

Like I said before, stop looking at this from your perspective and instead, wear our shoes and walk a mile in it. Some of us don't want to live in hiding, some of us don't want to fake religious practices to avert suspicion, some of us simply want to live our lives the way we do choose it. I want freedom baby! It's literally within your religious interests to keep us hidden and live a lie because then you don't have to worry about your future children (if you don't already have any) being exposed to different ideas.

Ironically, Muslims in Italy are screaming religious discrimination because Italy has only allowed 8 mosques in a nation of over a million Muslims. They say that they don't want "to pray in hiding." How ironic indeed...

Like @VixR said, you lot are deliberately choosing to 'misunderstand' us.

 

[Dhabaal]

Your affinity for the cultural Atheist Muslim makes me wonder how open you are to the [engaged] gay Muslim, the feminist Muslim, etc, and other weird, contradictory manifestations contrary to the faith, which the typical Muslim is repulsed by?

I have said it before , i have no issue with anyone disbelieving in God or believing in one for that matter. But that should come from a philosophical stance as the Question of Gods or God is metaphysical.

Being an Atheist who is culturally Muslim, is different from being a European feminist and engaging in gay sex. Because those are not metaphysical but rather ideological which deals with lifestyle and value change.

The choice of not living in ones culture is self-rejecting ones heritage. As an identity cannot exist outside of a culture that cradles it.

For me the existence of a God is meeh Whatever. It's not that i don't believe in one nor disbelieve in one. Just something i consider unknown. Just like i don't know who is going to win the NBA championship, i cannot empirically falsify nor verify the existence of God.

 

[Dhabaal]

Nobody implied atheism is an ideology or a religion. That would defeat the definition of atheism

When somebody decides to abandon a religion, they also abandon much of the cultural practices that are intertwined with that religion. Wearing the hijab is an Islamic cultural practice and thus would not make sense for a murtada to continue wearing it unless she was hiding her disbelief. You're literally trying to separate Islam from the culture that comes with it. That's highly dishonest.

Like I said before, stop looking at this from your perspective and instead, wear our shoes and walk a mile in it. Some of us don't want to live in hiding, some of us don't want to fake religious practices to avert suspicion, some of us simply want to live our lives the way we do choose it. I want freedom baby! It's literally within your religious interests to keep us hidden and live a lie because then you don't have to worry about your future children (if you don't already have any) being exposed to different ideas.

Ironically, Muslims in Italy are screaming religious discrimination because Italy has only allowed 8 mosques in a nation of over a million Muslims. They say that they don't want "to pray in hiding." How ironic indeed...

Like @VixR said, you lot are deliberately choosing to 'misunderstand' us.

YES YOU GUYS DID IMPLY THAT!!!

Are you asleep or something the conversation has always been about how the disbelief in God is not someones identity nor is it something that informs values, culture or ethics.

That is what me and @Tramo has been talking about from the Get GO! we cannot be more clear on that.


Loook at the level of backtracking going on here, and how he tries to change the direction and the topic of the conversation into European political mumbo jumbo.

HAHAHAHA you guys are proving our case this has ''Zero'' thing to do with your lack of belief in God, but more so to do with how your bigoted hate for the lifestyle and your mind is hijacked with Politics.

 

[The_Cosmos]

YES YOU GUYS DID IMPLY THAT!!!

Are you asleep or something the conversation has always been about how the disbelief in God is not someones identity nor is it something that informs values, culture or ethics.

That is what me and @Tramo has been talking about from the Get GO! we cannot be more clear on that.


Loook at the level of backtracking going on here, and how tries to change the direction and the topic of the conversation into European political mumbo jumbo.

HAHAHAHA you guys are proving our case this has ''Zero'' thing to do with your lack of belief in God, but more so to do with how your hate the lifestyle and your mind is hijacked with Politics.

Nobody is backtracking, I simply made a comparison.

True, atheism is simply a definition but you're getting yourself caught up in a web of dishonesty if you honestly think that Islamic culture can be separated from the religion. Most atheists (I'm included) follow humanism which is a philosophical and ethical stance that provides us with a clear and secular ethical viewpoint of the world.

If you're calling us to stick to Somali culture (which has been heavily polluted by salafist over the last 30 years), then maybe you should make that point. Not everyone wants to be a 'cultural Muslim' or whatever the hell that actually means.

Like I said in another post, Muslims such as yourself are so disillusioned by the fact that people actually leave Islam that they decide to create bogus rationalisations. My path out of Islam was philosophical, scientific and logical and had practically zero to do with lifestyle, culture or the media.

 

[VixR]

I have said it before , i have no issue with anyone disbelieving in God or believing in one for that matter. But that should come from a philosophical stance as the Question of Gods or God is metaphysical.

Being an Atheist who is culturally Muslim, is different from being a European feminist and engaging in gay sex. Because those are not metaphysical but rather ideological which deals with lifestyle and value change.

The choice of not living in ones culture is self-rejecting ones heritage. As an identity cannot exist outside of a culture that cradles it.

For me the existence of a God is meeh Whatever. It's not that i don't believe in one nor disbelieve in one. Just something i consider unknown. Just like i don't know who is going to win the NBA championship, i cannot empirically falsify nor verify the existence of God.

You're still intermingling religion and culture beyond distinction lmao.

@ bold: Yet u blatantly disregard that the atheist rejects the ideological stances of Islam completely by virtue and essence of being an atheist whereas the gay and feminist Muslim are merely in denial of the ideological stances of Islam. Whether s/he chooses to assign a cultural significance to the once divinely held, religion/faith-based tenets you call 'culture' is entirely individual and irrelevant.

Agnosticism deals with lack of knowledge.

Atheism deals with a lack of belief.

They are not mutually exclusive. One can profess both, or one or other based on their view.

From what you've stated, I'd say you're more suited to calling yourself an apatheist.

 

[Dhabaal]

Nobody is backtracking, I simply made a comparison.

True, atheism is simply a definition but you're getting yourself caught up in a web of dishonesty if you honestly think that Islamic culture can be separated from the religion. Most atheists (I'm included) follow humanism which is a philosophical and ethical stance that provides us with a clear and secular ethical viewpoint of the world.

If you're calling us to stick to Somali culture (which has been heavily polluted by salafist over the last 30 years), then maybe you should make that point. Not everyone wants to be a 'cultural Muslim' or whatever the hell that actually means.

Like I said in another post, Muslims such as yourself are so disillusioned by the fact that people actually leave Islam that they decide to create bogus rationalisations. My path out of Islamic was philosophical, scientific and logical and had practically zero to do with lifestyle, culture or the media. I'm

There is no comparison. You are dragging in stuff that has no relevancy to the conversation to begin with.

The convo and point was strictly about how Atheism is simply an act of disbelieving in a Diety, that itself has no cultural underpinning. Case Point!!

And the fact you guys cannot even concede to that, and try to obfuscate the issue with lousy straw-mans is telling.


You guys don't deal with the existence or non-existence of God or gods, but rather, it's almost always something along the lines of "Muslims did this, that, here and there, and they're immoral for doing so, therefore God can't exist".

Just like you are doing now.

And that's not a scientific argument that somehow disproves the existence of God. Yeah, people are idiots and hypocrites, and religious people are no more human in this regard, but how does that have any bearing on whether or not there is a higher power? Supernatural entities to be or not to be, is independent from their followers being dumb or intelligent.

 

[Dhabaal]

You're still intermingling religion and culture beyond distinction lmao.

@ bold: Yet u blatantly disregard that the atheist rejects the ideological stances of Islam completely by virtue and essence of being an atheist whereas the gay and feminist Muslim are merely in denial of the ideological stances of Islam. Whether s/he chooses to assign a cultural significance to the once divinely held, religion/faith-based tenets you call 'culture' is entirely individual and irrelevant.

Agnosticism deals with lack of knowledge.

Atheism deals with a lack of belief.

They are not mutually exclusive. One can profess both, or one or other based on their view.

From what you've stated, I'd say you're more suited to calling yourself an apatheist.

Culture and religion share space and are deeply intertwined; sometimes dyadic, sometimes so complex it becomes a single irreducible unit. The purpose of a comparison is only to better facilitate how they interact with each other, but not to suggest a pure dichotomy between the two. Where there is religion there will always be culture....It can be debated if the reverse is true.

Definition:

Culture has been defined as the system of shared beliefs, values, customs, behaviors and artifacts that the members of society use to cope with their world and with one another, and that are transmitted from generation to generation through learning. It is institutionalized in art, clothing, taboos, rituals, architecture, linguistics, proverbs, films and stories. Culture in its broadest definition is the entire social heritage of humanity.

Religion has been defined as a system of beliefs based on humanity's attempt to explain the universe and natural phenomena, often involving one or more deities or other supernatural forces and also requiring or binding adherents to follow prescribed religious obligations. Two identifying features of religions are they to some extent (a) require faith and (b) seek to organize and influence the thoughts and actions of their adherents. (Webster)

Religion, like culture itself, consists of systematic patterns of beliefs, values, and behavior, acquired by people as a member of their society.

You can follow the culture without believing in the spiritual aspect of it.

What you are doing is trying to create a false dichotomy between the two. Culture and religion. The same way you guys create false dichotomy between. Religion and Secularism.

 

[The_Cosmos]

There is no comparison. You are dragging in stuff that has no relevancy to the conversation to begin with.

The convo and point was strictly about how Atheism is simply an act of disbelieving in a Diety, that itself has no cultural underpinning. Case Point!!

And the fact you guys cannot even concede to that, and try to obfuscate the issue with lousy straw-mans is telling.


You guys don't deal with the existence or non-existence of God or gods, but rather, it's almost always something along the lines of "Muslims did this, that, here and there, and they're immoral for doing so, therefore God can't exist".

Just like you are doing now.

And that's not a scientific argument that somehow disproves the existence of God. Yeah, people are idiots and hypocrites, and religious people are no more human and this regard, but how does that have any bearing on whether or not there is a higher power? Supernatural entities to be or not to be, is independent from their followers being dumb or intelligent.

I don't know who you're talking to but I've never denied not have I tried to claim that atheism is some sort of culture. I'm a Somali ethnically and culturally and I'm a humanist. I don't see the point of being a cultural Muslim and following a set of cultural practices without the superstition.

I very much believe that you're just trolling now. I very much conceded that atheism is simply but a definition.

You complain of supposed straw man arguments made against you, but you then turn around and make straw man arguments? I haven't made any of the claims you associates me with and so I'm actually mesmerised at the level of hypocrisy your showing right now. I have always dissociated Islam from Muslims, I judged Islam for what is and I wasn't convinced that it was the truth. Don't complain of straw manning but then straw man us.

There is no evidence for Allah and thus it's highly dubious of me to dedicate my life to a deity that I only acquired due to the mere coincidence of birth. The fact that there's a personal God out there who involves himself with my affairs but doesn't provide any evidence of his existence is most likely a non existent deity. There's a very thin line between the invisible and the non existent.

 

[Tramo]

u don't have to be anything u dont want to be, but don't expect ur parents to accept it and be cool like everything's gucci. u can't have ur cake and eat it too

 

[VixR]

Culture and religion share space and are deeply intertwined; sometimes dyadic, sometimes so complex it becomes a single irreducible unit. The purpose of a comparison is only to better facilitate how they interact with each other, but not to suggest a pure dichotomy between the two. Where there is religion there will always be culture....It can be debated if the reverse is true.

Definition:


Religion, like culture itself, consists of systematic patterns of beliefs, values, and behavior, acquired by people as a member of their society.

You can follow the culture without believing in the spiritual aspect of it.

What you are doing is trying to create a false dichotomy between the two. Culture and religion. The same way you guys create false dichotomy between. Religion and Secularism.

The bottom line is, once you disbelieve, the religion and it's tenets lose their divine ordainment, which is what drives the religious to tedious, ritualistic practice in the first place, belief in the divine. You can choose to follow the tenets of a religion without belief, but u don't have to, and thus you likely will not, and I personally cannot fathom why.

Culturally, I'm Somali. Are there parts of that culture that defer to religion? Yes. Do I follow those parts? No. While we're at it, there are cultural practices I and many of us in the West don't follow either! And so?

You're being facetious and reject fluidity even as you attempt to argue for it.

 

[dhegdheer]

@Dhabaal acting like he wouldn't be thrown of the nearest bridge, like the rest of us, by some fundementalist

"I'm not like a regular gaal I'm a cool gaal"

 

[The_Cosmos]

u don't have to be anything u dont want to be, but don't expect ur parents to accept it and be cool like everything's gucci. u can't have ur cake and eat it too

I'll repeat what I've been saying several times on this forum since the documentary. I very much believe that if your child is over the legal age to take care of themselves, you can kick him out of your house for disbelieving. However, understand that every action has a reaction and if you live in the west, you action will be viewed as bigotry and intolerant. What do you call a father who disowns his daughter for marrying a black man? I very much doubt you'd think highly of him. Like you said, "you can't have your cake and eat it."

 

[Tramo]

I'll repeat what I've been saying several times on this forum since the documentary. I very much believe that if your child is over the legal age to take care of themselves, you can kick him out of your house for disbelieving. However, understand that every action has a reaction and if you live in the west, you action will be viewed as bigotry and intolerant. What do you call a father who disowns his daughter marrying a black man? I very much doubt you'd think highly of him. Like you said, "you can't have your cake and eat it."

ur reaching with this analogy. religion is a way of life and not a flippant opinion on a particular race. ur not being disowned for who u are, but for rejecting the very deity the parent worships and their way of life
of course, this is assuming that atheism is the mere disbelief in god/religion and not anything more than that as u maintain .

unless of course ur implying that atheism is as central to a person's identity as their race

 

[sinister]

i don't see how it's any more difficult for females, but i assume ur referring to the hijab? plenty of muslim girls dont wear the hijab and it's not something inextricably linked to faith (tho i agree, somalis at least seem to make it out to be that way)...but i think it's something that depends on family. u gotta call it by ear i guess

why did u find it extremely uncomfortable if i may ask? uncomfortable in that u dont like lying to ur parents for so long, or simply lying about ur beliefs? the way i see it, atheism shouldnt be that important to someone, unless the whole 'atheism is merely nothing more than disbelief in God' canard is just a convenient tool to use in other arguments

honestly, unless ur folks are super liberal and dont really care...i think the best course of action is almost always to just be one of them non-practicing Muslims

I guess it's more the aspect of 'no longer being Muslim' rather than 'being Atheist/whatever else' which is at play in most exmuslims lives really. When your belief system is massively changed, you do change as a person, feeling pressured to not simply express that change smacks of subjugation. It might seem trivial, but when you're having a nice conversation with someone you've known your whole life, not just family but friends well, and the thought pops into your head saying 'Would this person even be speaking to me if they knew I wasn't Muslim anymore?', it does eventually weigh down on you, you do feel genuine misery. And it's not just happening once, it's happening all the time. Imagine if you became Muslim and you had a friend that you were hiding it from because you knew they really don't like it when people become Muslim, how would you feel around them? Yeah you can fake it, that's an option, you might want the person in your life, but how would it feel every time you saw them? I get what you're saying about religious identity vs atheist identity, but at its core it is the same. Not just for atheists but for those who convert to other religions as well. When you know expressing your authentic beliefs about the world you live in might cause you to become a social pariah, and being constantly aware of that, it is draining, many people will naturally take the option of not putting yourself through that. Being honest about your beliefs is the first option for everyone. And it's the option everyone would take if the environment was more accommodating. On the outside, they may look the same, but these are not the issues that non-practising Muslims face. Sorry for the longwinded paragraph but I think that probably answers your other question about why I found it uncomfortable. Also, I come from a family where we are open with each other, so the whole secrecy thing, which you fall into instinctively, was a massive culture shock.

 

[dhegdheer]

@Dhabaal @Tramo

You two were properly not brought up in a very religious family. In my household being non practicing muslim would have you labelled a kafir with the quickness.

And you know what the say about takfir
"He who says to his brother 'O disbeliever', then it returns upon one of them."


All I'm doing is confirming their suspicion.

Can't have my fam think they're going to burn in hell for eternity in a place that don't exist

 

[Dhabaal]

I don't know who you're talking to but I've never denied not have tried to claim that atheism is some sort of culture. I'm a Somali ethnically and culturally and I'm a humanist. I don't see the point of being a cultural Muslim and following a set of cultural practices without the superstition.

I very much believe that you're just trolling now. I very much conceded that atheism is simply but a definition.

You complain of supposed straw man arguments made against you, but you then turn around and make straw man arguments? I haven't made any of the claims you associates me with and so I'm actually mesmerised at the level of hypocrisy your showing right now. I have always dissociated Islam from Muslims, I judged Islam for what is and I wasn't convinced that it was the truth. Don't complain if straw manning but then straw man us without.

Humanism is just means you don't have to believe in God to have morality and adhere to ethical values. It's not a religious or cultural doctrine, you can be humanist and extract morals values from a set culture. Just don't believe these virtues comes from God, that's all.

I didn't commit any fallacies, i have been consistently discussing the topic that was raised by @Tramo , Which is Atheism is not an ideology religion or culture. It's not something central to someones identity nor does it prevent you from being culturally Somali for instance.

You came in here quoting my post about it, talking politics and stuff irrelevant to topic like ''Muslims are doing this or doing that''. Or something about discrimination in Italy. What does that have to do with what we are talking about?

Thats like me hijacking/interrupting a convo about Football and start talking about Basketball and making Basketball arguments against Football.

Totally unrelated.

So it is Straw man fallacies you are committing by acting like you are refuting my argument by replacing it with a different proposition and obfuscating it dragging stuff unrelated to it.

There is no evidence for Allah and thus it's highly dubious of me to dedicate my life to a deity that I only acquired due to the mere coincidence of birth. The fact that there's a personal God out there who involves himself with my affairs but doesn't provide any evidence of his existence is most likely a non existent deity. There's a very thin line between the invisible and the non existent.

Saying God or Allah does not exist is Logical positivism. Which is highly paradoxical.

Falsifiability is a basic principle of the scientific method. Not verification, Thus saying you have no evidence is ultimately meaningless because you cannot falsify it nor can you prove that claim , is not a scientific question.

So the existence of a God is relegated to a ''Personal truth'' and if you wish to debate it , it is with the use of metaphysics.