33 years later, would you say we should've left Siad Barre alone?

[Dalalos_ibn_Adali]

List the pros and cons.

I would say yes! We should have left that homie alone.
Here's mine and before anyone asks, I am Darod but not Marehan.

pros
strong government
top 2/3 strongest military in Africa.
stable country
better equipped to deal with famine and droughts because of the government institutions being functional
Ethiopia and Kenya would't be toying with us today.
Our marine fisheries woudn't be stolen
no amison
no alshabab
we could have dug the oil/gas by now.
last but not least, if Somalia's government hadn't collapsed, we could have gotten somali galbeed in 1991 when Eritrea also declared independence after the Ehio civil war.

cons
He killed a lot of people, specially in the north, but we lost millions more after he was gone so this is still a pro in my book.
he let his clan run wild: I can accept this if the country remained strong and stable.
he wanted to keep the kursi no matter what: again i can accept this.


We lost so much by chimping out in 1991 and made zero gains.
Let's be objective and keep qabiil emotions out of this discussion.

You were not alive around that time, the people who were and lead rebel movement have already said what you are asking.

the question is not even about leaving MSB alone it is should have gone in for the kill after he already wanted to leave power as he said he no longer desired to be President. But the rebel leaders wanted to go in for the kill because they feared his return would get them executed which they probably would have.

The rebels didn't just fight against a dictator by the way, they fought against civilians and each other but more importantly they could not come to an agreement with each other even with MSB out of the picture that is what actually destroyed the nation.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Getting rid of him is one thing. The real issue is the complete disintegration that followed

If Arte Ghalib hadn't disbanded the Somali army maybe there would have been a new strongman in charge.

Despite him being a coon till the end, that’s one positive thing he did.

 

[Daydreamer]

a kafir cannot rule the muslim afaik. the rules between a kafir and a muslim obviously differ

this rule only really applies if the people are being ruled under caliphate, which somalia wasn't at the time, therefore there is not really that much of a difference between siad barre and a christian ruler in terms of how the government works. at least that's my reasoning please correct me if im wrong tho

 

[Nass010]

Guys lets look it from this perspective too, msb was in his 80s or late 70s, physically even if he wanted he couldn't stay much longer in office, so how I see it is that we maybe could have waited it out and hope for a good successor.

 

[Nass010]

Bitter truth is snm with the help of mengistu created havoc deliberately, usc had it al in their hands but instead(thanks to ali mahdi and aideed) turned into infighting, abdullahi yusuf hit the nail in the coffin by inviting meles zenawi and his gaal army tplf to run us over with the help of the americans. And alshabaab who clearly have governmental ties keep us in this stage. I oversimplified it but what happend post 91 was worse than everything MSB and his foolish kacaan party done even worse than his loss in the ogaden war due to his diplomatic incompetence. A strong Somalia is a United one not federal based on clan borders which feeds into nepotism.

 

[ina-cilmi]

this rule only really applies if the people are being ruled under caliphate, which somalia wasn't at the time, therefore there is not really that much of a difference between siad barre and a christian ruler in terms of how the government works. at least that's my reasoning please correct me if im wrong tho

the conversation is a lot more nuanced but it should be held between two knowledgeable ppl rather than us two so ill refrain from speaking any further. but there is definitely a difference between a muslim ruler in muslim lands and a kafir ruler in kuffar/muslim lands even if the place of the muslims isnt necessarily a caliphate

 

[JamalFarah]

He should have quit, but instead, he tried to use clan ties to stay in power, which only made things fall apart even more. It turned the civil war, from a war against barre, to a sectarian tribal conflict.


One major issue is the romanticization of his regime. Somalia's standard of living was far from that of a developed country, especially after the Ogaden conflict when the economy began to decline due to the inherent flaws of collectivist economies and american support being a 1/10 of soviet support. His rule was extremely oppressive toward dissent, displacing clans through forced migration. Moreover, he ruthlessly bombed northern cities. The reality was that clans outside the government knew they were not safe; if he bombed Burco today, he could bomb Beledweyne, Hobyo, Merka, or Baidoa tomorrow.


It's crucial for people to grasp the radicalizing effect of a government that tells you, possibly a former nationalist and Ogaden veteran from the early 1990s, "This is a war between our clan and yours," essentially seeking to erase your existence from the earth.

 

[Nass010]

He should have quit, but instead, he tried to use clan ties to stay in power, which only made things fall apart even more. It turned the civil war, from a war against barre, to a sectarian tribal conflict.


One major issue is the romanticization of his regime. Somalia's standard of living was far from that of a developed country, especially after the Ogaden conflict when the economy began to decline due to the inherent flaws of collectivist economies and american support being a 1/10 of soviet support. His rule was extremely oppressive toward dissent, displacing clans through forced migration. Moreover, he ruthlessly bombed northern cities. The reality was that clans outside the government knew they were not safe; if he bombed Burco today, he could bomb Beledweyne, Hobyo, Merka, or Baidoa tomorrow.


It's crucial for people to grasp the radicalizing effect of a government that tells you, possibly a former nationalist and Ogaden veteran from the early 1990s, "This is a war between our clan and yours," essentially seeking to erase your existence from the earth.

Your jumping arguments, there were already clan based rebel groups during his regime, but yes the concept of qabiil being the absolute core of an militant group definitely intensified after he was kicked out. And the bombings were in fact his reaction against the rebel groups especially those in the North which collaborated with ethiopia, msb is a fool but be honest it wasnt unprovoked

 

[JamalFarah]

Your jumping arguments, there were already clan based rebel groups during his regime, but yes the concept of qabiil being the absolute core of an militant group definitely intensified after he was kicked out. And the bombings were in fact his reaction against the rebel groups especially those in the North which collaborated with ethiopia, msb is a fool but be honest it wasnt unprovoked

During the regime both the SSDF and SNM where marginal groups, ironically, the stronger goverment repression became, the more these groups and other that sprung up gained followers and militants.

Bombing entire towns and villages, targeting your own citizens, can never be justified under any circumstances. These were not strangers but people who were under your care until that point. Moreover, from an Islamic perspective, it is completely and utterly impermissible to mass kill Somali women and children with impunity.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

During the regime both the SSDF and SNM where marginal groups, ironically, the stronger goverment repression became, the more these groups and other that sprung up gained followers and militants.

Bombing entire towns and villages, targeting your own citizens, can never be justified under any circumstances. These were not strangers but people who were under your care until that point. Moreover, from an Islamic perspective, it is completely and utterly impermissible to mass kill Somali women and children with impunity.

Can confirm this is at least true for the SNM- they didn't have mass popularity nor did they gain large membership until the refugee exodus across the border.

This is when they were able to recruit from the refugee camps of displaced and understandably very angry people. Before this, they didn't have a lot of support

 

[Itsnotthateasy]

Is this some tribalist talking point? I notice a lot of anti-HSM and pro(not hawiye) leader sentiments flying around. It could just be a conincidence though.

What's done is done. Siad Barre is really the architect of what Somalia became (Somaliland, Puntland and South Somalia). Him and his tribal antics. If he was left alone he would have erased certain groups and for whatever reason he didn't succeed (those groups were stronger than he thought). He was a victim of his own stupidity and hubris not some people taking fault with his superior leadership skills.

So maybe your question should have been, should Siad Barre have left things alone that he couldn't control or at least been a sound negotiator. Those things being the Ogaden and Somaliland.

 

[Garaad Awal]

Can confirm this is at least true for the SNM- they didn't have mass popularity nor did they gain large membership until the refugee exodus across the border.

You mean after WSLF was massacring Isaaq Ethiopians. The same WSLF Darood militia funded by Barre to ethnically cleanse Somali Galbeed?

This is when they were able to recruit from the refugee camps of displaced and understandably very angry people. Before this, they didn't have a lot of support

The SNM had plenty of popular support. After the 77 war Barre was pouring in his clansmen in Ethiopia into SL. Giving all positions of authority to them in the region, stealing Isaaq private property and handing it over to Jabartis.

You need to stop with the constant historical revisionism.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

You mean after WSLF was massacring Isaaq Ethiopians. The same WSLF Darood militia funded by Barre to ethnically cleanse Somali Galbeed?

The SNM had plenty of popular support. After the 77 war Barre was pouring in his clansmen in Ethiopia into SL. Giving all positions of authority to them in the region, stealing Isaaq private property and handing it over to Jabartis.

You need to stop with the constant historical revisionism.

I read Western sources that said so I wasn't trying to revise anything.

If they were all wrong and as you say Isaaq had a consensus to destroy Siad Barre in 1977 then I will accept it.

But I think you are treating discontent and active decision to support armed insurrection as the same when they aren't the same and by all accounts it took time before most people supported this and as you say Siad Barre arming that militia and doing that really pissed people off

 

[𐒁𐒚𐒒𐒂𐒘𐒂𐒗 𐒎𐒚𐒗𐒗𐒒]

Siad Barre should have left people alone, he is the one that started ethnically cleansing people the minute he illegally stepped in office. SSDF wasn't founded as a hobby, it was meant to counter his relentless aggression. Anyway, SSDF and his regime made a peace-deal long before 1991, but by that time, this man and his team had amassed a legion of other enemies.

He is dead now, and I know that everyone gets what they deserve.

 

[Three Moons]

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[Gemstone]

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Sharp, very sharp!

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