GENETICS The Origin of the Sudanese 'Africans'

[Nilo-Saharan]

From what I have read of him (which is not a lot considering the low stupifying writing), Jay Spaulding's work is faulty interpretive, weighted unprofessional erroneous, and biased drivel.

Look at this buffoon:
View attachment 260429

I don't know much about Jay Spaulding's twitter reputation outside of his research but all I will say is, as funny as these tweets maybe this doesn't discredit any of his work without a valid and direct criticism of his work. It's almost quasi-ad hominem with all due respect. If you think Jay Spaulding's work is "faulty interpretive, weighted unprofessional erroneous, and biased drivel" then I would much rather you acknowledge the sources I've listed and then go on to prove them to be suitably described by your list of adjectives.

No hate, I respect you and the super detailed and informative posts you have made on this forum. It's just I'd much rather if you were more direct with what you disagreed with so the discussion can go as usual.

 

[KelAhaggar]

Interesting, do you know the name of the book or document which this source comes from? It'd help a little more if we can see some more detail on this.

But I don't disagree with this either. I think you're not reading my responses carefully enough to be able to understand what I agree and disagree with. You've come forth with sources and I respect that but your sources aren't going against anything I'm saying. In fact, your sources are very much compatible with what I have stated. The Funj exercised significant power over a large region of Sudan and created the framework for the mass Arabization of Sudan to take place. While the Funj didn't directly do the dirty work of forcing Arab migration into Sudan (like you said they were actually in conflict with the Arabs) they still were major proponents for why it was so easy for Arabs to spread their influence across Sudan and merge with the several indigenous peoples creating an identity that would thrive and live on for centuries to come.

Im reading over my response right now and can't find anything this source is in conflict with. I also clearly mentioned that "The Arabs then had a light bulb moment that Makuria and many other Sudanese kingdoms seemed to be experiencing a period of decline, the Arabs sat back, grew their population, and watched everything burn to wait to spread and dominate." Which is interestingly very similar (almost paraphrasing) for what your source states. "The fall of Nubia opened the gates for Arab nomads to reach the rich pastures beyond the Nubian desert". "The immigrants did not come in the form of invading hordes but in successive small parties of peaceful nomads" "It is almost certain that before the fall of Dunqula, bands of Arab tribesmen had infiltrated into the Middle Nile region" Your source even has a whole 5-8 pages talking about how all of the Genealogical and ancestral claims Sudanese people make are allegedly BS.

I admit I skimmed through the source because it isn't worth my time to read every single page just to point out sections we can focus on because I think we are clear in where we stand here but if there is something in specific you want me to acknowledge please do point it out.

"Your source even has a whole 5-8 pages talking about how all of the Genealogical and ancestral claims Sudanese people make are allegedly BS."

My source is doing the opposite of that actually and setting a historical framework for the genealogical claims of the Sudanese Arabs and determining which ones are true and which ones are not. It acknowledges the al-Abbasi lineage of figures such as Ibrahim Ja'al and frankly whether or not all the members of a certain tribe are descended from one man or not isn't particularly relevant because tribal affiliations don't work like that and pedigree collapse over the centuries ensures that anyhow all members of a certain tribe will sooner or later all be related to each other regardless. Page 6 touches upon the validity of his lineage.

The Arabs then had a light bulb moment that Makuria and many other Sudanese kingdoms seemed to be experiencing a period of decline, the Arabs sat back, grew their population, and watched everything burn to wait to spread and dominate."

The Fall of Nubia this source is alluding to is not the final fall of Makuria in the 15-16th century but the sack of Dongola and initial occupation by the Mamluks in the late 13th century - an event that was not a matter of waiting but the matter of a Muslim government to the north violently crushing the Kingdom of Makuria and the subsequent power vacuum that followed after the death of Baibars. In fact, much of the decline you speak of was directly caused by the inability of Nubian monarchs to handle the migration of Arab tribes into the region. Alwa was actively being attacked by slave traders they could not repel and we see more of this happen in the typical way in Bornu - a place that had already been converted to Islam

.

"The Funj exercised significant power over a large region of Sudan and created the framework for the mass Arabization of Sudan to take place."


The problem with this assumption is that as I have already shown, Abdallah Jamah had already conquered Alwa by this time and taken up the horned crown. Had the Funj not come, Abdallah Jamah would've held rule over a similar territory and carried out Arabization perhaps even faster than the Pagan Funj.

 

[KelAhaggar]

They definitely have Arab ancestry, to varying extents but just because they don't overzealously wave it around in people's faces the same way Sudanese Arabs do, does not mean it's not there.

No, they actually don't. Most North African countries have drastically lower levels of J1 penetration than central Sudan does and quite low amounts of autosomal admixture as well. Saying that Arab identity in Sudan is a product of 20th-19th century social developments is also frankly insane when J1 is absurdly predominant in Sudanese Arabs to the point of matching Saudi Arabian populations and it is clearly observed at Kulubnarti that this haplogroup was rare to non-existent in Sudan beforehand in Nubians.

 

[KelAhaggar]

I don't know much about Jay Spaulding's twitter reputation outside of his research but all I will say is, as funny as these tweets maybe this doesn't discredit any of his work without a valid and direct criticism of his work. It's almost quasi-ad hominem with all due respect. If you think Jay Spaulding's work is "faulty interpretive, weighted unprofessional erroneous, and biased drivel" then I would much rather you acknowledge the sources I've listed and then go on to prove them to be suitably described by your list of adjectives.

No hate, I respect you and the super detailed and informative posts you have made on this forum. It's just I'd much rather if you were more direct with what you disagreed with so the discussion can go as usual.

Spaulding's claim that Arabs in Sudan fabricated their genealogies en-masse is not compatible with genetic evidence from the region that states directly otherwise. Even nearly half of modern Nubians possess the J1 haplogroup from Arab migration.

 

[kaahin13]

Spaulding's claim that Arabs in Sudan fabricated their genealogies en-masse is not compatible with genetic evidence from the region that states directly otherwise. Even nearly half of modern Nubians possess the J1 haplogroup from Arab migration.

j1 is not necessarily arabian. some copts have j1, which is probably where nubians got it from. j1 has been in northeast africa since atleast the bronze age

 

[KelAhaggar]

j1 is not necessarily arabian. some copts have j1, which is probably where nubians got it from. j1 has been in northeast africa since atleast the bronze age

That's highly unlikely because Nubian samples at Kulubnarti from before Islam have only 2 examples of the J1 haplogroup existent there - and both are from clades different to the ones carried now by Sudanese Arabs and nearly all other modern Nubian haplogroups present, additionally Copts did not intermarry with Nubians.

 

[kaahin13]

That's highly unlikely because Nubian samples at Kulubnarti from before Islam have 0 examples of the J1 haplogroup existent there and nearly all other modern Nubian haplogroups present, additionally Copts did not intermarry with Nubians.

kulubnarti is just one small area in historic nubia, you can't take those samples and make sweeping statements like that. Loads of copts moved into northern sudan when muslims conquered egypt, of course they would have intermarried

 

[KelAhaggar]

kulubnarti is just one small area in historic nubia, you can't take those samples and make sweeping statements like that. Loads of copts moved into northern sudan when muslims conquered egypt, of course they would have intermarried

The fact that Copts in Sudan in the modern day have almost 0 admixture from marrying with Nubians points to otherwise, as does the fact that they carry drastically different clades to what is now found in Sudanese Arabs. On top of that - we have no reason to believe that Kulubnarti Y haplogroups would be drastically different to those found in the rest of Nubia, so unless you find evidence pointing to otherwise we cannot just assume things are different.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

"Your source even has a whole 5-8 pages talking about how all of the Genealogical and ancestral claims Sudanese people make are allegedly BS."

My source is doing the opposite of that actually and setting a historical framework for the genealogical claims of the Sudanese Arabs and determining which ones are true and which ones are not. It acknowledges the al-Abbasi lineage of figures such as Ibrahim Ja'al and frankly whether or not all the members of a certain tribe are descended from one man or not isn't particularly relevant because tribal affiliations don't work like that and pedigree collapse over the centuries ensures that anyhow all members of a certain tribe will sooner or later all be related to each other regardless. Page 6 touches upon the validity of his lineage.

Page 6 outlines the "Probability" that Ibrahim was an Abbasi. While not impossible, I'm not looking for probability. If they claim that lineage then there should be evidence to prove it and the ones making the claim should be the ones to provide it, not onlookers like me and you and other researchers. If Ibrahim being an Abbasi is something probable I think I want to leave it at that until something more compelling comes to light. The Sudanese Arab claim is that they all have this Abbasid lineage, your source conflicts with that even if it is settling for partial truth in the claim that some Sudanese Arabs may have Abbasid lineage. Page 6 concludes that even if the claim of Abbasid lineage was true it wouldn't hold to be absolutely true in the sense that all Arabized Nubians descend from the lineages they claim and that if anything only some Arabized Nubians probably actually have Abbasid lineage. However a very useful and interesting set of sources you have there. If you know the name of the book drop it because I'm very intrigued with what else is in this.

The Fall of Nubia this source is alluding to is not the final fall of Makuria in the 15-16th century but the sack of Dongola and initial occupation by the Mamluks in the late 13th century - an event that was not a matter of waiting but the matter of a Muslim government to the north violently crushing the Kingdom of Makuria and the subsequent power vacuum that followed after the death of Baibars. In fact, much of the decline you speak of was directly caused by the inability of Nubian monarchs to handle the migration of Arab tribes into the region.

That clears things up. I don't discredit any military action from the Mamluks that was significant to Makurias downfall I'm torn on the fact that you're failing to make the distinction between Mamluks and Arabs. The Mamluks acted militarily, and the Arabs migrated and destabilized the region. The Arabs weren't the conquerors. This isn't about pride or cope. You could talk about the Abdallab conquest of Alodia but then that makes me ponder where we draw the line between Arab tribes and Arabized tribes. At this point in time the Rufaa were well integrated into Sudan and had settled the region for quite some time, I imagine similarly to modern-day Arabized Nubians they would have consisted of a merge of Arab Nomads and sedentary natives so do we still view them as an example of Arab militarial success? And as for Nubian monarchs, in the same breath, you can say the Arabs are also responsible for Makuria's decline. If a nation grows weak and is penetrated by foreigners that gradually weaken it further, the rulers of that nation are responsible but so are the foreigners who are directly causing harm to weaken the state in question.

The problem with this assumption is that as I have already shown, Abdallah Jamah had already conquered Alwa by this time and taken up the horned crown. Had the Funj not come, Abdallah Jamah would've held rule over a similar territory and carried out Arabization perhaps even faster than the Pagan Funj.

Which page are you referencing specifically? And when I mention the role of the Funj their role extends all the way before Nomadic Arab intrusions actually started showing noticeable demographic effects all the way until Arabs started actually getting a hold on to influence across the land and Arabizing the tribes So when you mention "this time" I am not referencing any specific time frame, I am referencing the Funj's entire existence and how it is significant to the modern construct of the Sudanese Arab identity and its role in Arab identity coming to be so dominant in Sudan. As for the Arabization involving the conquest of Alodia, I doubt it happened over such a short period of time so rapidly. Arabization associated with the Abdallab probably came to prominence when they were appointed as viceroys by their Funj overlords. Also, some Sudanese scholars have made reference to the Funj somewhat assisting the Abdallab in their conquest of Alodia, the Funj Chronicles by Katib al-Shuna is a long read but mentions this. But this is irrelevant to the fact that after the Funj won over the Abdallab and ruled over them, this is really where the big steps were taken towards what would then come to be the Sudanese Arab Identity.

Also are you Somali? You seem to know a ton about Sudanese history

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

No, they actually don't. Most North African countries have drastically lower levels of J1 penetration than central Sudan does and quite low amounts of autosomal admixture as well.

The absence of J1 does not conclude an absence of Arab Ancestry. I do hold any interest to discuss exact numbers but they have Arab Ancestry and I think we should leave it at that.

Saying that Arab identity in Sudan is a product of 20th-19th century social developments is also frankly insane when J1 is absurdly predominant in Sudanese Arabs to the point of matching Saudi Arabian populations and it is clearly observed at Kulubnarti that this haplogroup was rare to non-existent in Sudan beforehand in Nubians.

Not the point Im making. Sudanese people probably received Arab admixture as early as the 9th Century maybe even earlier if you could find a source for it, but the major social/societal, cultural, and linguistic shifts that were made to solidify, a group of Arabized and Arab-mixed Nilo-Saharan/Cushitic people into becoming "Arabs proper" and then asserting the identity they continue to assert today, generally seemed to have major contributions in more recent times (1700s-1900s). But this does not discredit any earlier contributions at all.

 

[KelAhaggar]

Page 6 outlines the "Probability" that Ibrahim was an Abbasi. While not impossible, I'm not looking for probability.

There are very little written records in this time period and everything seems to line up with Ibrahim Ja'al being an Abbasi. Short of literally time travelling back to the time of Ibrahim Ja'al and asking him ourselves, it doesn't get any better than that. Oral tradition agrees with his Abbasi heritage, the probability of Abbasi individuals making their way to Sudan is quite high and nothing directly contradicts this. There is more evidence backing this than there is evidence for the Fatimid dynasty of Egypt legitimately being Ashraf. The text is Arabs and the Sudan by Yusuf Fadl Hasan.

Page 6 concludes that even if the claim of Abbasid lineage was true it wouldn't hold to be absolutely true in the sense that all Arabized Nubians descend from the lineages

This is a ridiculous standard of lineage to uphold. No ethnic group is 100% descended from this lineage or the other. The oral claim that Sudanese Arabs have Abbasi heritage is likely true, even if not literally all Sudanese Arabs are of Abbasi lineage.

I don't discredit any military action from the Mamluks that was significant to Makurias downfall I'm torn on the fact that you're failing to make the distinction between Mamluks and Arabs

I don't make the distinction because contemporary rulers of the timeperiod didn't make the distinction either. When Arabs despoiled Bornu, the King of Bornu immediately went to the Mamluk Sultan, not some Arab tribal chief to ask for remedy. The Arabs that migrated into Sudan and beyond had strong ties to Egypt and the Mamluk government and the Mamluks backed Arabs as puppet kings in Makuria several times.

Also, some Sudanese scholars have made reference to the Funj somewhat assisting the Abdallab in their conquest of Alodia

Page 22 and 23 dismiss the claim of the Funj having any involvement in the conquest of Alodia. The Funj did not become relevant in the region until the very tail end of Arab migration into the region and the final fall of Nubian authority.

The numbers of Arab migrants were already being taken note of in the early decades of the ninth century. Arab immigration took three main forms. First, there are records of Arab immigrants buying land from Nubians during the Umayyad and early ‘Abba¯sid period. As early as the reign of al- Ma’mu¯n in the tenth century, the Nubian king complained that Arabs had begun to buy the lands of his subjects in the region between Aswan and Bajrash, where they were not supposed to settle, but his complaint did not stop Arab encroachment in that area. Second, following the discovery of gold and emeralds in the eastern desert in the ninth century, there are records of a stream of Arabs moving to the mines of the Beja, already well known because they had in the past been a fabled source of wealth for the pharaohs. The third destination that attracted Arab immigrants was the port of Aydhab in Beja country. A town of five hundred inhabitants with a Friday mosque, Aydhab became “one of the busiest ports in the Muslim world” toward the end of the twelfth century.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

That's highly unlikely because Nubian samples at Kulubnarti from before Islam have only 2 examples of the J1 haplogroup existent there - and both are from clades different to the ones carried now by Sudanese Arabs and nearly all other modern Nubian haplogroups present, additionally Copts did not intermarry with Nubians.

J1 is not Arab specific but this isn't me denying the high frequency of Arab Sub-clades in North Kordofan. I just want to make known that J1 (in the case of Sudan) is also broadly associated with Neolithic populations migrating from the Levant into Egypt.

 

[KelAhaggar]

J1 is not Arab specific but this isn't me denying the high frequency of Arab Sub-clades in North Kordofan. I just want to make known that J1 (in the case of Sudan) is also broadly associated with Neolithic populations migrating from the Levant into Egypt.

Yes, I acknowledge that some of this could be prior Natufian migration. However, I find that a preponderance of evidence points to this being introduced by Arabs, as this is a table of the Y haplogroups of Kulubnarti Nubian males prior to Islam.

Master ID (Lab)	Skeletal Code	SNPs covered on the Y chromosome	Y haplogroup in terminal mutation notation	Y haplogroup in ISOGG v15.73 notation	Likely Geographic Origin/Primary Distribution of Haplogroup
I6138*	R101*	1655	E-GG24	E1b1b1b2b3a	Africa
I19140	R123	757	LT	LT	West Eurasia
I6139	R124	3001	E-V22	E1b1b1a1b2	Africa
I19014	R15	2184	E-V32	E1b1b1a1a1b	Africa
I19143	R150	1229	E-Z1919	E1b1b1a1	Africa
I6340	R169	7494	T-Y31477	T1a1a1a1	West Eurasia
I6252	R181	7187	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I6327	R196	9214	E-BY7923	E1b1b1a1a1b1a1	Africa
I6328	R201	4341	T-L208	T1a1a	West Eurasia
I19015	R21	4839	E-Y161115	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I19132	R57	1552	E-L1250	E1b1b1a1b2	Africa
I6250	R59	2042	E-BY7923	E1b1b1a1a1b1a1	Africa
I6331*	R93*	10737	E-GG24	E1b1b1b2b3a	Africa
I19138	R96	1317	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I18508	S115	6562	E-FGC14382	E1b1b1a1a1b1a1	Africa
I17475	S144	5609	J-M92	J2a1a1a2b2a1a	West Eurasia
I6332	S159	19211	E-M41	E2a	Africa
I18612^	S16^	1099	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I18514	S182	2343	E-Y6730	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I6334	S198	9699	G-L140	G2a2b2a1	West Eurasia
I18520	S217	6973	J-YSC0000234	J1a2a1a2d2b2b2	West Eurasia
I6336	S27	18568	E-Y161113	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I18610^	S29^	7835	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I6254	S33	6686	R-L295	R2a2b1b2b	West Eurasia
I17481	S45	4406	E-CTS2294	E1b1b1a1a1b1a	Africa
I6255	S50	15486	J-M92	J2a1a1a2b2a1a	West Eurasia
I6325	S73	14827	J-M92	J2a1a1a2b2a1a	West Eurasia
I6337	S79	16760	G-L140	G2a2b2a1	West Eurasia
I6257	S81	6886	J-BY94	J1a2b2b	West Eurasia
I17482	S94b	1644	G-P15	G2a	West Eurasia

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Spaulding's claim that Arabs in Sudan fabricated their genealogies en-masse is not compatible with genetic evidence from the region that states directly otherwise. Even nearly half of modern Nubians possess the J1 haplogroup from Arab migration.

Spaulding doesn't deny the existence of Arab Ancestry, as far as I know, but I'd be interested to see where he claims this. Spaulding doesn't claim, it is a known fact that the creation and development of genealogical literature in Medieval Islamic Sudan was commonplace in the Funj and Darfur and I wouldn't be surprised to find the same is true for neighboring kingdoms like Wadai. Spaulding is critical of the specific folklore around Sudanese Arab ancestry which I commend him for, considering we have some pretty laughable stories lmao.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Yes, I acknowledge that some of this could be prior Natufian migration. However, I find that a preponderance of evidence points to this being introduced by Arabs, as this is a table of the Y haplogroups of Kulubnarti Nubian males prior to Islam.

Master ID (Lab)	Skeletal Code	SNPs covered on the Y chromosome	Y haplogroup in terminal mutation notation	Y haplogroup in ISOGG v15.73 notation	Likely Geographic Origin/Primary Distribution of Haplogroup
I6138*	R101*	1655	E-GG24	E1b1b1b2b3a	Africa
I19140	R123	757	LT	LT	West Eurasia
I6139	R124	3001	E-V22	E1b1b1a1b2	Africa
I19014	R15	2184	E-V32	E1b1b1a1a1b	Africa
I19143	R150	1229	E-Z1919	E1b1b1a1	Africa
I6340	R169	7494	T-Y31477	T1a1a1a1	West Eurasia
I6252	R181	7187	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I6327	R196	9214	E-BY7923	E1b1b1a1a1b1a1	Africa
I6328	R201	4341	T-L208	T1a1a	West Eurasia
I19015	R21	4839	E-Y161115	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I19132	R57	1552	E-L1250	E1b1b1a1b2	Africa
I6250	R59	2042	E-BY7923	E1b1b1a1a1b1a1	Africa
I6331*	R93*	10737	E-GG24	E1b1b1b2b3a	Africa
I19138	R96	1317	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I18508	S115	6562	E-FGC14382	E1b1b1a1a1b1a1	Africa
I17475	S144	5609	J-M92	J2a1a1a2b2a1a	West Eurasia
I6332	S159	19211	E-M41	E2a	Africa
I18612^	S16^	1099	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I18514	S182	2343	E-Y6730	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I6334	S198	9699	G-L140	G2a2b2a1	West Eurasia
I18520	S217	6973	J-YSC0000234	J1a2a1a2d2b2b2	West Eurasia
I6336	S27	18568	E-Y161113	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I18610^	S29^	7835	E-Y125054	E1b1b1a1a1c	Africa
I6254	S33	6686	R-L295	R2a2b1b2b	West Eurasia
I17481	S45	4406	E-CTS2294	E1b1b1a1a1b1a	Africa
I6255	S50	15486	J-M92	J2a1a1a2b2a1a	West Eurasia
I6325	S73	14827	J-M92	J2a1a1a2b2a1a	West Eurasia
I6337	S79	16760	G-L140	G2a2b2a1	West Eurasia
I6257	S81	6886	J-BY94	J1a2b2b	West Eurasia
I17482	S94b	1644	G-P15	G2a	West Eurasia

I don't think it's a mere coincidence Sudan has a frequency of J1 that high but I am slightly against using Kulubnarti Nubians as a reference for other Nubians. Their lineages are polar opposites to Modern Nubians and the study even claims that modern Nubians are not direct descendants of them. Kulubnarti Nubians seem to have mainly Eurasian Maternal lineage whilst Modern Nubians are very predominantly Sub-Saharan Maternally with most of the Eurasian lineage being concentrated Paternally.

 

[KelAhaggar]

I don't think it's a mere coincidence Sudan has a frequency of J1 that high but I am slightly against using Kulubnarti Nubians as a reference for other Nubians. Their lineages are polar opposites to Modern Nubians and the study even claims that modern Nubians are not direct descendants of them. Kulubnarti Nubians seem to have mainly Eurasian Maternal lineage whilst Modern Nubians are very predominantly Sub-Saharan Maternally with most of the Eurasian lineage being concentrated Paternally.

Kulubnarti Nubians definitely differ autosomally from modern Nubians but I don't really see why in terms of paternal haplogroups there would be much differentiation between them and other groups of Nubians. We know that the Natufian migrants into Sudan and the Horn predominantly carried the E1B1B1 haplogroup and these results are generally consistent with this.

 

[Garaad diinle]

Kulubnarti Nubians definitely differ autosomally from modern Nubians but I don't really see why in terms of paternal haplogroups there would be much differentiation between them and other groups of Nubians. We know that the Natufian migrants into Sudan and the Horn predominantly carried the E1B1B1 haplogroup and these results are generally consistent with this.

Are you somali? You know a lot about sudan so i'm guessing that you're sudanese or you could be related to sudanese people.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

There are very little written records in this time period and everything seems to line up with Ibrahim Ja'al being an Abbasi. Short of literally time travelling back to the time of Ibrahim Ja'al and asking him ourselves, it doesn't get any better than that. Oral tradition agrees with his Abbasi heritage, the probability of Abbasi individuals making their way to Sudan is quite high and nothing directly contradicts this. There is more evidence backing this than there is evidence for the Fatimid dynasty of Egypt legitimately being Ashraf. The text is Arabs and the Sudan by Yusuf Fadl Hasan.

What in specific lines up with Ibrahim Ja'al being an Abbasi? And I'd rather stray away from oral traditions knowing the history of Genealogical folklore among Sudanese Arabs.

This is a ridiculous standard of lineage to uphold. No ethnic group is 100% descended from this lineage or the other. The oral claim that Sudanese Arabs have Abbasi heritage is likely true, even if not literally all Sudanese Arabs are of Abbasi lineage.

Yes! This is exactly what I and Jay Spaulding are trying to make clear. It is totally ridiculous for us to believe that all Arab tribes descend from the Arab nobility they claim to descend from, given this Spaulding maintains a high level of skepticism when approaching claims like these to provide as accurate an understanding as possible. I certainly think some Arab tribes have individuals who will have some Abbasid Lineage, this is inevitable but I definitely do not imagine the frequency to be anything near to what is claimed by Sudanese people. We can never be sure how many people are actually of Abbasid lineage but we know for sure it's very plausible to believe it's nowhere near 80% and up of Sudanese Arabs.

I don't make the distinction because contemporary rulers of the timeperiod didn't make the distinction either. When Arabs despoiled Bornu, the King of Bornu immediately went to the Mamluk Sultan, not some Arab tribal chief to ask for remedy. The Arabs that migrated into Sudan and beyond had strong ties to Egypt and the Mamluk government and the Mamluks backed Arabs as puppet kings in Makuria several times.

Fair point.

Page 22 and 23 dismiss the claim of the Funj having any involvement in the conquest of Alodia. The Funj did not become relevant in the region until the very tail end of Arab migration into the region and the final fall of Nubian authority.

On point reference. I'll refer back to my other source and see why it claims what it claims.

 

[KelAhaggar]

Spaulding doesn't deny the existence of Arab Ancestry, as far as I know, but I'd be interested to see where he claims this. Spaulding doesn't claim, it is a known fact that the creation and development of genealogical literature in Medieval Islamic Sudan was commonplace in the Funj and Darfur and I wouldn't be surprised to find the same is true for neighboring kingdoms like Wadai. Spaulding is critical of the specific folklore around Sudanese Arab ancestry which I commend him for, considering we have some pretty laughable stories lmao.

It is true that a lot of Sudanese Arab folklore around their ancestry is bogus - but much of Jay Spaulding's perspective on the matter doesn't incorporate the fact that 70+% of Sudanese Arabs have a paternal lineage stemming directly from the Arabian Peninsula in one of the world's most dramatic examples of male population replacement.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Kulubnarti Nubians definitely differ autosomally from modern Nubians but I don't really see why in terms of paternal haplogroups there would be much differentiation between them and other groups of Nubians. We know that the Natufian migrants into Sudan and the Horn predominantly carried the E1B1B1 haplogroup and these results are generally consistent with this.

I honestly am yet to fully read the study, I've skimmed over it the couple of times people have linked it but the Kulubnarti Nubians appear to have their lineage in total opposites to Modern Nubians. It's like the Kulubnarti Nubians descend from like an offshoot population that formed their own community over centuries hence the bizarre polarities they have with other Nubians. But it would be great to get our hands on more Pre-Arab Nubian DNA, it would help a lot, especially considering Kulubnarti doesn't seem to be all that representative of other Nubians.