Did the Ajurans ever control the Banadir coast?

[Zak12]

He said Mogadishu is in the country of the black Berbers(I.e Somalia) but the city itself is inhabited by strangers(I.e Arabs, Persians)

Ibn Said and Yaqut literally said that Merca was the town of the black Berbers. You cannot be this disingenuous.

 

[hanif#]

Read the link. Unless you can prove those manuscripts were written in the same time period they are just secondary sources at best.

LOL at oral traditions being primary. Get some standards already wallahi, academia isn't a joke.

No, they don't need to be written at the same time period the events happened as long as the information they provide is new.

You don't know what primary source is

 

[hanif#]

Ibn Said and Yaqut literally said that Merca was the town of the black Berbers. You cannot be this disingenuous.

Let me get off from work lol, this is the easiest debunk

Sorry, I meant Mogadishu. I don’t know what he said about Marka

 

[Zak12]

they don't need to be written at the same time

Where are you getting this definition from? All the definitions online state the source needed to be written at the same time period.

Sorry, I meant Mogadishu

You'd have to refer to Ibn Battuta then.

 

[attash]

Looks like you don't get tired of coping,

وفي شرقيه من بلاد بربرا المشهورة علي البحر مركة حيث الطول ٦٩ د وثلاثون دقيقة والعرض درجة وعشرة دقائق، وأهلها مسلمون وهي قاعدة الهاوية التي تنوف علي خمسين قرية، وهي شاطئ نهر يخرج من نيل مقديشو وينصب علي مرحلتين من المدينة في شرقيها، ومنه فرع يكون حوض مركة، وفي شرقي ذلك مدينة الإسلام المشهورة في ذلك الصقع والمترددة الذكر علي السن المسافرين وهي مقديشو حيث الطول ٢٧ درجة والعرض درجتان، وهي علي بحر الهند ومرساها غير مأمون الأنواء

That's what Ibn Sa'id Al Maghribi says, He says to the east of Xaafuun mountains is Marka, he then says to the east of Marka is Muqdisho.

From this we can conclude, that the description is completely inaccurate , Al Idirisi seperated between Marka and Hawiye base which was after xaafuun mountains, meanwhile Ibn Sa'id (who wrote a century after him )refers to Marka being their base, Al Idirisi doesn't mention Muqdisho or Mungiya which are much older than Marka.

I'm not the one who's coping, you are the one who misunderstood the source. Since satellites didn't exist back then, medieval geographers did not know what the shape of Africa was. The thought that the east African coast was continuous from the Bab al-Mandeb strait onwards. This is why ibn Sa'id and al-Idrisi thought that Merca and Mogadishu were east of Xaafuun and that Sofala was east of Mogadishu.

This is why my argument doesn't rest on the fallible testimony of one scholar alone, it rests on the weight of the testimonies of four different scholars, which is irrefutable.

Only thing correct that correlates with the rest of evidences available that Yaqut Al Hamawi said, was his description of Muqdisho, as the inhabitants were Arabs and Persians and a council of elders ruled.

Lmao Yaqut al-Hamawi never mentioned "Arabs and Persians", he used the word ghuraba, which means strangers. He also mentioned that Mogadishu was located within the country of the Berberah people (which debunks your claim that Somalis weren't present in the region at the time), but you conveniently forgot to mention that.

Now none of your sources mention the word Samaale.

They don't need to. As is made painstakingly obvious by their descriptions, the scholars of the age used the word Berberah as an exonym for Somalis. It is just like how the medieval Europeans used the word "Saracen" as an exonym for Muslims. You will never find the word "Muslim" being used in their sources, they usually use the word "Saracen". Does this mean they never referred to Muslims? Of course not, we know that every time a crusader would use the word "Saracen" in his books or songs, he is talking about Muslims.

We don't need foreigners to prove to us our own history when our own primary sources are sufficient, we would use them as supplementary evidences such as what Yaqut Al Hamawi said of Muqdisho .

What primary sources? You never showed me one primary source, all of your sources are either Caydaruus (who lived in the 20th century) or the Italians or some other 19th or 20th century scholar. I was the only one who used a primary source which was Ibn Battuta.

View attachment 308975

There's no "even" mate, there's nothing you can show. I didn't make the claim, that's what's known amongst reer xamars, why would ancestor of a whole habargidir clan be buried in xamar and have no descendants there, or do you beleive his descendants were an extinct branch of habargidir?

Are you saying Habar Gidir are not present in Mogadishu?

Anyways, tribes move from place to place over time, this isn't surprising. For example, the ancestor of Habar Awal is buried in Jiidali, Sanaag. But there are no Habar Awal reers living in that region, it is populated by Dhulbahante Naaleye Axmed. The Habar Awal instead live 300 km to the west.

Does this mean that the Habar Awal moved their ancestors bones to be buried in some random tuulo in Sanaag?

All the ancient gravesites are of native Arabs and Persians, none of foreign reer samaale's, there's no ancient surviving masjid throughout the horn built by Hawiyes, so I don't know how you have the audacity to think they built one in banaadir and not their lands .View attachment 308976
Arab graves from 2nd hijri century, centuries before Samaale was born ( according to your people's oral history)

I can't believe the retardedness I'm dealing with here. Are you seriously saying Somalis didn't come to exist until centuries after the 2nd century Hijri?

This is just wrong. Genetics says it is wrong. Common sense says it is wrong. Even our own tradition says it is wrong.

Genetics says it is wrong because the most recent common ancestor of the Somalis lived 4000 years ago, not 1000 years ago.

Common sense says it is wrong because even if Samaale was our common ancestor, there is no way he alone invented the Somali language and culture, it must have existed before him.

Our own tradition even says it is wrong. According to Al-Mas'udi's Aqeeleyoon, Dawud ibn Isma'il Al-Jabarti (Darod) lived around the second Hijri century. According to Somali tradition, he arrived in Somalia and married a woman from the Dir tribe, thus fathering the Darod clan. This means the Dir, a Samaale clan, existed around the 2nd Hijri century, which means Samaale must have existed much before that.

Nope, no evidence to prove that some extinct samaale's inhabited the coast and somehow got wiped out by Arabs and persians, it would atleast be mentioned in your people's oral history and it wouldn't be some 21st century online discovery .

This isn't a recent online discovery, I am citing medieval sources from 900 years ago.

No valid evidence has been presented so far, you've dodged the questions as usual and I'm not surprised, because it's impossible to show any trace of hawiye presence in Marka (Saraha and Awbaali)before 300 years ago or Samaale presence in Muqdisho ( Xamar and Shingaani) before 500 years ago.

Those questions have already been answered by the sources I provided and the information provided by other users in this forum. I'm not going to go all the way to Marka to survey the city and find relevant sites simply because you want to be a hard head.

As I said it's a shortened lineage, if there's 29 generations between Sheikh Maxamed Sheikh Cilmi then that already gives you a hint that it's not 10 generations.

Why not show an abtirsi of him to Caalam Balcad then to prove that he's "hawiye" even tho Caalam Balcad's origin is obscure aswell.
You dodged the question, why not show the full screen of this screenshot ↓View attachment 308974

None of his descendants claim to be from Caalam Baalcad yet you're here slandering the sheikh and claiming him to be hawiye somehow.

Never said he was Hawiye, I originally said he was Ajuuraan, now that I found out that wasn't the case, I don't claim this anymore. As I said before, his origins seem to be more obscure than I thought. Why don't you show us the full lineage so we can verify?

Now you've decided to backtrack and say the people who accompanied him were hawiye, now it's upon you to prove that, name which hawiye sub clan they were , show any abtirsi that goes to a hawiye individual that lived in Marka before 300 years ago.

Prove what? I didn't make up this claim, I got this information from an academic who has been to the region and asked the people there about the oral traditions.

 

[attash]

Reiterating again, can you name one samaale family that counts 20 generations on the coast? Or even a mundul xaafad in xamar or Marka that was once inhabited by hawiyes before they became extinct and left no trace behind . If you were clever you'd be unuka lehhing Marka as a darood since there's a xaafad called xaafada darood in Awbaali

I'm not interested in "unuka lehhing" anything in the Banaadir, my ancestors had nothing to do with this region and I don't view as a part of my history. I said this was a Hawiye inhabited region because that is what the medieval sources say. I never made a single claim that was not backed by the sources. If the testimony of an eyewitness is not going to convince you, if the testimony of four different medieval geographers is not going to convince you, then there is nothing that will convince you. You asked for gravesites, @killerxsmoke showed you. You asked for ancient clans that lived in the region, @Garaad diinle showed you (xamar samaale). Now you want me to go to all the clan elders of the Samaale clans living in the region, ask them for their abtirsis and also go to Marka and look at all the graves and masaajid in the city and their histories. And even if a showed you proof from there, you would still deny it. You would say the bones are moved, the abtirsis are fake, history of the masaajids are wrong, whatever. Even if I invented a time machine and showed you labogoodles chilling in Xamar circa 1300 AD, you would still come up with a way to deny what your eyes are seeing.

But I knew all of this already. The reason I engaged with you was to show you proof so clear that you would look like a retard trying to deny it. I see that I have accomplished that goal. Until next time sxb.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

I'm not interested in "unuka lehhing" anything in the Banaadir, my ancestors had nothing to do with this region and I don't view as a part of my history. I said this was a Hawiye inhabited region because that is what the medieval sources say. I never made a single claim that was not backed by the sources. If the testimony of an eyewitness is not going to convince you, if the testimony of four different medieval geographers is not going to convince you, then there is nothing that will convince you. You asked for gravesites, @killerxsmoke showed you. You asked for ancient clans that lived in the region, @Garaad diinle showed you (xamar samaale). Now you want me to go to all the clan elders of the Samaale clans living in the region, ask them for their abtirsis and also go to Marka and look at all the graves and masaajid in the city and their histories. And even if a showed you proof from there, you would still deny it. You would say the bones are moved, the abtirsis are fake, history of the masaajids are wrong, whatever. Even if I invented a time machine and showed you labogoodles chilling in Xamar circa 1300 AD, you would still come up with a way to deny what your eyes are seeing.

But I knew all of this already. The reason I engaged with you was to show you proof so clear that you would look like a retard trying to deny it. I see that I have accomplished that goal. Until next time sxb.

No authentic medieval sources state that hawiye inhabited Marka , none of your claims are backed by primary sources, you haven't shown any eye witness testimony, @killersmoke showed one grave which was supposedly his habargidir ancestor, it turned out to to be fake and that he was brought there in the 90s , he didn't show whole ancient gravesites as there's only ones of Arabs and persians there.

No evidence for xamarre samaale being an ancient clan in xamar or any banadiri town, they're not mentioned in any manuscript and no family claims descent from them.

I don't need you to go there as it'll only waste your time, if you wish to go there to learn about the history of native Arabs and Persians then by all means go ahead. There's no ancient masjid claimed to be built by any Reer samaale's.

You had no chance showing anything to prove Samaale presence so you result to coping as usual. Now , the retard is evident as I'm not the one claiming to have discovered that there were once a group of medieval Samaale's in banadiri towns that went extinct

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

I'm not the one who's coping, you are the one who misunderstood the source. Since satellites didn't exist back then, medieval geographers did not know what the shape of Africa was. The thought that the east African coast was continuous from the Bab al-Mandeb strait onwards. This is why ibn Sa'id and al-Idrisi thought that Marka and Mogadishu were east of Xaafuun and that Sofala was east of Mogadishu.

View attachment 309021

This is why my argument doesn't rest on the fallible testimony of one scholar alone, it rests on the weight of the testimonies of four different scholars, which is irrefutable.

Still doesn't justify the rest of the inaccurate and contradicting information.
- Al Idirisi didn't mention Muqdisho but mentioned Marka which was much smaller
- Al Maghribi mentions Barbara when talking about the river of muqdisho, when Barbara is on the other side of the horn 100s of Kms far from the same river.

The scholars you're quoting didn't visit Muqdisho or Marka

Lmao Yaqut al-Hamawi never mentioned "Arabs and Persians", he used the word ghuraba, which means strangers. He also mentioned that Mogadishu was located within the country of the Berberah people (which debunks your claim that Somalis weren't present in the region at the time), but you conveniently forgot to mention that.

Ghuraba would mean Arab and Persian, manuscripts only mention Arabs and Persians in that era . In this context it would mean strangers in contrast to inhabitants of interior. No evidence of Barbar being Reer Samaale , it's like the 100th time I've corrected a hotep on this matter, no foreigner ventured inland to know the various diverse inhabitants of the interior, during that era inhabitants of southern interior were the gaala madow tribes and the hunter gatherer and agricultural jàreers.

They don't need to. As is made painstakingly obvious by their descriptions, the scholars of the age used the word Berberah as an exonym for Somalis. It is just like how the medieval Europeans used the word "Saracen" as an exonym for Muslims. You will never find the word "Muslim" being used in their sources, they usually use the word "Saracen". Does this mean they never referred to Muslims? Of course not, we know that every time a crusader would use the word "Saracen" in his books or songs, he is talking about Muslims.

Zero correlation. Did any of those scholars who used Barbar venture inland in the horn? Not comparable to crusaders who were using a name for Muslims and not certain ethnic groups .

What primary sources? You never showed me one primary source, all of your sources are either Caydaruus (who lived in the 20th century) or the Italians or some other 19th or 20th century scholar. I was the only one who used a primary source which was Ibn Battuta.

And did Shariif Caydaruus invent his work from thin air or did he collect from manuscripts available? Italians such as Cerulli translated manuscripts. If you think history of mogadishu is just collected from a few foreign accounts then that just shows your lack of functioning braincells.

Are you saying Habar Gidir are not present in Mogadishu?

The Reer xamar habargidirs aren't from that man that was supposedly buried there. He has no reer xamar descendants.

Anyways, tribes move from place to place over time, this isn't surprising. For example, the ancestor of Habar Awal is buried in Jiidali, Sanaag. But there are no Habar Awal reers living in that region, it is populated by Dhulbahante Naaleye Axmed. The Habar Awal instead live 300 km to the west.
Does this mean that the Habar Awal moved their ancestors bones to be buried in some random tuulo in Sanaag?

Not comparable , this isn't about tribe migration even, the distance between xamar and where habargidirs probably lived at the time is 500+km up north. No mention of a south to north migration for habargidir in their oral history either

I can't believe the retardedness I'm dealing with here. Are you seriously saying Somalis didn't come to exist until centuries after the 2nd century Hijri?

According to your own elders and the oral sources they used he was a Muslim man that lived around a thousand years ago, unless you doubt his islam . I don't see anyone counting more than 40 names to samaale, I'm even being generous by saying 40. If you have a problem with that then take it up with your people not my problem.

This is just wrong. Genetics says it is wrong. Common sense says it is wrong. Even our own tradition says it is wrong.

Genetics says it is wrong because the most recent common ancestor of the Somalis lived 4000 years ago, not 1000 years ago.

Common sense says it is wrong because even if Samaale was our common ancestor, there is no way he alone invented the maxatiri language and culture, it must have existed before him.

Interesting, so all your ancestors agreed and believed on a lie and you were first to discover? Cajeeb

Not enough testing has been done on all those that claim to be descendants of Samaale, so there's no definite conclusion you can come to.

Seems like you're having an identity crisis

Our own tradition even says it is wrong. According to Al-Mas'udi's Aqeeleyoon, Dawud ibn Isma'il Al-Jabarti (Darod) lived around the second Hijri century. According to Somali tradition, he arrived in Somalia and married a woman from the Dir tribe, thus fathering the Darod clan. This means the Dir, a Samaale clan, existed around the 2nd Hijri century, which means Samaale must have existed much before that.

This isn't a recent online discovery, I am citing medieval sources from 900 years ago.

What's the evidence for Dawud Ibn Isma'il Al Jabarti being Darood, you were using genetics to prove when Samaale supposedly lived now you're mentioning that darood are from Dawud bin Isma'il Al Jabarti which genetics have already debunked, contradiction after contradiction.


Where did the rest of Samaale's live during that era then if they were recent in that time? Surely a family that only existed for few generations wouldn't have been spread allover the horn.

Those questions have already been answered by the sources I provided and the information provided by other users in this forum. I'm not going to go all the way to Marka to survey the city and find relevant sites simply because you want to be a hard head.

Never said he was Hawiye, I originally said he was Ajuuraan, now that I found out that wasn't the case, I don't claim this anymore. As I said before, his origins seem to be more obscure than I thought. Why don't you show us the full lineage so we can verify?

Prove what? I didn't make up this claim, I got this information from an academic who has been to the region and asked the people there about the oral traditions.

View attachment 309024

They haven't been answered because there's no answer to them, you won't find anything to prove your point rather you'll just build up on what I've taught you here, or you'll probably just end up claiming daroods built Marka.

How would his origins be obscure when there's only one origin claimed by his descendants, I've showed the lineages available online and they're shortened. That's sufficient.

Don't see any mention of who those hawiyes were and who relayed such information to him , no mention of any hawiyes that once left the city in any marka manuscript.

You still haven't shown the full screenshot is there something you're attempting to hide?

 

[killerxsmoke]

Still doesn't justify the rest of the inaccurate and contradicting information.
- Al Idirisi didn't mention Muqdisho but mentioned Marka which was much smaller
- Al Maghribi mentions Barbara when talking about the river of muqdisho, when Barbara is on the other side of the horn 100s of Kms far from the same river.

The scholars you're quoting didn't visit Muqdisho or Marka

Ghuraba would mean Arab and Persian, manuscripts only mention Arabs and Persians in that era . In this context it would mean strangers in contrast to inhabitants of interior. No evidence of Barbar being Reer Samaale , it's like the 100th time I've corrected a hotep on this matter, no foreigner ventured inland to know the various diverse inhabitants of the interior, during that era inhabitants of southern interior were the gaala madow tribes and the hunter gatherer and agricultural jàreers.

Zero correlation. Did any of those scholars who used Barbar venture inland in the horn? Not comparable to crusaders who were using a name for Muslims and not certain ethnic groups .

And did Shariif Caydaruus invent his work from thin air or did he collect from manuscripts available? Italians such as Cerulli translated manuscripts. If you think history of mogadishu is just collected from a few foreign accounts then that just shows your lack of functioning braincells.

The Reer xamar habargidirs aren't from that man that was supposedly buried there. He has no reer xamar descendants.

Not comparable , this isn't about tribe migration even, the distance between xamar and where habargidirs probably lived at the time is 500+km up north. No mention of a south to north migration for habargidir in their oral history either



According to your own elders and the oral sources they used he was a Muslim man that lived around a thousand years ago, unless you doubt his islam . I don't see anyone counting more than 40 names to samaale, I'm even being generous by saying 40. If you have a problem with that then take it up with your people not my problem.

Interesting, so all your ancestors agreed and believed on a lie and you were first to discover? Cajeeb

Not enough testing has been done on all those that claim to be descendants of Samaale, so there's no definite conclusion you can come to.

Seems like you're having an identity crisis


What's the evidence for Dawud Ibn Isma'il Al Jabarti being Darood, you were using genetics to prove when Samaale supposedly lived now you're mentioning that darood are from Dawud bin Isma'il Al Jabarti which genetics have already debunked, contradiction after contradiction.


Where did the rest of Samaale's live during that era then if they were recent in that time? Surely a family that only existed for few generations wouldn't have been spread allover the horn.

They haven't been answered because there's no answer to them, you won't find anything to prove your point rather you'll just build up on what I've taught you here, or you'll probably just end up claiming daroods built Marka.

How would his origins be obscure when there's only one origin claimed by his descendants, I've showed the lineages available online and they're shortened. That's sufficient.

Don't see any mention of who those hawiyes were and who relayed such information to him , no mention of any hawiyes that once left the city in any marka manuscript.

You still haven't shown the full screenshot is there something you're attempting to hide?

No authentic medieval sources state that hawiye inhabited Marka , none of your claims are backed by primary sources, you haven't shown any eye witness testimony, @killersmoke showed one grave which was supposedly his habargidir ancestor, it turned out to to be fake and that he was brought there in the 90s , he didn't show whole ancient gravesites as there's only ones of Arabs and persians there.

No evidence for xamarre samaale being an ancient clan in xamar or any banadiri town, they're not mentioned in any manuscript and no family claims descent from them.

I don't need you to go there as it'll only waste your time, if you wish to go there to learn about the history of native Arabs and Persians then by all means go ahead. There's no ancient masjid claimed to be built by any Reer samaale's.

You had no chance showing anything to prove Samaale presence so you result to coping as usual. Now , the retard is evident as I'm not the one claiming to have discovered that there were once a group of medieval Samaale's in banadiri towns that went extinct

Wallahi do I love seeing benadiri hoteps coping

I showed you evidence where my forefather was buried and u went on saying it is fake with zero evidence, the first time I showed it to you, you barely knew who he was and now your telling me it's just a fake. This is why people here dont take u seriously.

Yaqut mentions that black berbers inhabit the city of merca and you went along saying that those black people arent somali. All you do is cope, we show you the evidence you just out right deny it like some retard. Both ibn said and al idrisi say that hawiye live in merca, you somehow deny that. Ibn Battuta says that sultan of Mogadishu is a berbera (somali) you deny that, ibn Khaldun says that Mogadishu is the city of berbera and its nomadic in culture again you deny that. I show you evidence that al-Amir who are abgaal took the city from ajuran you deny that. At this point all we are doing is talking to a brick wall, why the hell do u have to waste our times every single day.

 

[Banadiri Warrior]

Wallahi do I love seeing benadiri hoteps coping

I showed you evidence where my forefather was buried and u went on saying it is fake with zero evidence, the first time I showed it to you, you barely knew who he was and now your telling me it's just a fake. This is why people here dont take u seriously.

The fact that I didn't know who he was shows you alot already, I didn't say it's fake I said his body was brought in recently in 80s, if he was really buried there you'd be reer xamar like the habargidir family from shingaani.

Also habargidirs were known for stealing grave plaques in 90s which isn't surprising, when one has no valuable history to cling onto they result to looting others.

Yaqut mentions that black berbers inhabit the city of merca and you went along saying that those black people arent somali. All you do is cope, we show you the evidence you just out right deny it like some retard. Both ibn said and al idrisi say that hawiye live in merca, you somehow deny that. Ibn Battuta says that sultan of Mogadishu is a berbera (reer samaale) you deny that, ibn Khaldun says that Mogadishu is the city of berbera and its nomadic in culture again you deny that. I show you evidence that al-Amir who are abgaal took the city from ajuran you deny that. At this point all we are doing is talking to a brick wall, why the hell do u have to waste our times every single day.

Till now I'm yet to see one evidence to hint to any trace of any ancient samaale's in marka or xamar, wether it's an old mundul xaafad they used to inhabit, surely it can't be that hard even the silcis town in modern day Afgooye, lama jiidle, had ruins which were visible, why aren't there any for ancient samaale's of xamar or Marka?

I asked to name clans or even families that are modern day descendants of them that still live in Xamar or Marka yet no response.

I asked for gravesites of their ancestors and then I'm shown a habargidir man's grave who's bones were brought in 80s.

It's not hard to admit that you can't find any trace.

Infact it's me who's time is getting wasted, you hoteps are trying to say that banadiri settlements were just reer samaale inhabited mundul villages in medieval time , funnily enough you're only hinting that those samaale's were swiftly invaded by Arabs and persians who established their settlements and somehow had gravesites present before samaale even existed.

 

[El Nino]

The fact that I didn't know who he was shows you alot already, I didn't say it's fake I said his body was brought in recently in 80s, if he was really buried there you'd be reer xamar like the habargidir family from shingaani.

Also habargidirs were known for stealing grave plaques in 90s which isn't surprising, when one has no valuable history to cling onto they result to looting others.

Stealing grave plaques, whats next, we also stole women? But wait, that did actually happen kkkk come to Cadaado to meet your cousins sxb.