Atheism: The 21st Century Polytheistic religion

[The_Cosmos]

You seem to be hang up on Aljalalayn Error. A simple search on earliest Islamic maps and cartography will show how Muslims measured earth's circumference By the order and funding of their ruler back then around 800. Way before your 16th century claim as one example of your baseless claims. It was well known to Muslims before and after Aljalayn comments that earth is not flat. All the maps and their Astronomy show no indication that they treated earth as Flat. If you have decency, a drop of it, you would know that of course and do a study on it before you regurgitate such bs. Muslim maps were copied centuries by Europeans. Here is a quote of that fact:

"The compilation of Edrisi marks an era in the history of science. Not only is its historical information most interesting and valuable, but its descriptions of many parts of the earth are still authoritative. For three centuries geographers copied his maps without alteration. The relative position of the lakes which form the Nile, as delineated in his work, does not differ greatly from that established by Baker and Stanley more than seven hundred years afterwards, and their number is the same. The mechanical genius of the author was not inferior to his erudition. The celestial and terrestrial planisphere of silver which he constructed for his royal patron was nearly six feet in diameter, and weighed four hundred and fifty pounds; upon the one side the zodiac and the constellations, upon the other—divided for convenience into segments—the bodies of land and water, with the respective situations of the various countries, were engraved."

— S. P. Scott, History of the Moorish Empire in Europe


The Ottoman empire had one of the best Maps of the world.


Since you are stuck on this issue, I will keep my comments short and let you decide if you want to move on from Earth to other things you brought up.

Again, you don't seem to get the gist of my arguments. You've presented a fallacy here because you're arguing that what Muslim scientists have done somehow rebukes what a respected Muslim theologian and the consensus of his time had to say. I agree that Muslim astronomers accepted the spherical earth that the ancient Greeks (whom they acquired the knowledge from) have presented. The problem occurs when you try to claim that because they accepted this fact, it must also be the Islamic consensus. I'll provide an example that will show how foolish that is. Did you know that it was Muslim scientists who first entertained the idea that life arose as a consequence of a gradual process we now call evolution? I doubt you do. Does that then mean there isn't a fundamental issue concerning evolution and Islam? I'll let you ponder on that one.

I provided a respected Islamic scholar as a source and have clearly articulated that there was a consensus among the 16th century Islamic theologians that the Earth is flat, according to the Quran (a point I have made purposely so you don't pull up the scientists as proof but it didn't work). You on the other hand, gave me the position of Muslim scientists as somehow evidence of Islamic teaching! Muslim scientists who weren't afraid to contradict their own faith by suggesting humans might have evolved from primitive primates.

Cosmos

Here is some reading you can do also about maps and spherical world on Wikipedia

"Islamic astronomy

Islamic astronomy was developed on the basis of a spherical earth inherited from Hellenistic astronomy.[47] The Islamic theoretical framework largely relied on the fundamental contributions of Aristotle (De caelo) and Ptolemy (Almagest), both of whom worked from the premise that the earth was spherical and at the centre of the universe (geocentric model).[47]

Early Islamic scholars recognized earth's sphericity,[48] leading Muslim mathematicians to develop spherical trigonometry[49] in order to further mensuration and to calculate the distance and direction from any given point on the Earth to Mecca. This determined the Qibla, or Muslim direction of prayer."


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth


It is better to investigate a subject matter and read many sources before you speak about it with some confidence. I hope this subject is put to rest beyond this point and you move on to other so called issues you have with Islam.

Or you can do a favor for us Muslims and do the research on your own without us pointing to you the right direction.

This hasn't rebuked my points. These were Muslim scientists conducting scientific work. You seem to confuse Muslim scientists for Muslim scholars (some were both).

Further proof of my points:
Lane's Lexicon

Dahw
1. Daha (., MM_b;,, 1,) first pers. Dahouth aor, yad'hoo inf. N. dahoo He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended; (S, Msb, K; ) a thing; (K; ) and, when said of God, the earth; (Fr, S, Mb, 1V; ) As also daha first pers. dahaithu (K in art. daha) aor. yaad’heae inf. n. dahae: (Msb, and K in art. dahae : ) or He (God) made the earth wide, or ample; as explained by an Arab woman of the desert to Sh: (TA : ) also, said of an ostrich, (S, TA,) he expanded, and made wide, (TA,) with his foot, or leg, the place where he was about to deposit his eggs: (S, TA : ) and, said of a man, he spread, &c., and made plain, even, or smooth. (TA in art. dhaha ) - Also, said of a man, (K,,) aor. yad’hoo, inf. n. dahwu(TA,) i.q. Jamie as also daja; on the authority of 1Abr. (TA.) (You say, dhahaha He compressed her; like as you say, dhajaha.) _ Also He threw, or cast, and impelled, propelled, oi removed from its place, a stone, with his hand (TA.) One says also, to him who is playing with walnuts, abidil maddha va adhhuhu, meaning (Make thou the distance far, and) throw it. (S,TA.: See also midh’hath, in two places. And of a torrent one says, dhaha bilbat’hai It cast along (the soft earth and pebbles in its course; or drove then along). (TA.) And of rain, one says, dhaha Al hissa an waj’hil Ardhi (S,Msb) It drove the pebbles from the surface of the earth; (Msb; ) or removed them. (TA.) (See also dhaha, in the next art.) And aldhahwu bilhijarathi also signifies The vying, one with another, in throwing stones, and striving to surpass (in doing so); as also al Midahath (inf. n- of dahee). (TA marra yad’hoo inf.n. dahow said of a horse, He went along throwing out his fore legs without raising his hoofs much from the ground. (S,TA.) = dhahal bathan The belly was, or became, large, and hanging down; (Kr, K; ) and Indhahee (the belly) was, or became, wide, or distended: (MF : ) or both signify it (the belly) became swollen, or inflated, or big,. and hung down, by reason of fatness or disease; as also Dhau and Indah (TA in art dooh.) 3. Dhahee inf.n. Mudahath: see 1. 5. Thud'hee He spread out, or extended, himself; syn. Thabassuth. (K: in art. Daha.) You say, nama fulan fathadhahha Such a one slept, and (extended himself so that he) lay upon a vide space of ground (TA in that art.) - And thadhahhathil ibilu fil ardhi The camels made hollows in the ground where they lay down, it being soft; leaving therein cavities like those of bellies: thus they do only when they are fat. (El-'Itreefee, TA in art. Daha. ) 7. see 1, last sentence. 9. id'havi (of the measure if’alath for if’alle like Ar’awa) It (a thing, TA) was, or became, spread, spread out or forth, expanded, or extended. (K.)

Dhahin (act. part n. of 1). Allahumma dhahil Mad’huwwath in a prayer of ‘Alee, means O God, the Spreader and Expander of the (seven) earths: (TA : ) al Mdhuwwath (properly) signifies the things that are spread, &c.; as also Al Mudh’hiyyath. (TA in art. dhaha ) _ Al’Matharuddahee The rain that removes (or drives) the pebbles from the surface of the earth. (TA.)

Ud'hiyy (S.K) (Originally od'huwa of the measure Uf’ool from dhahaithu but said in the S to be of that measure from dhahouthu the dial. var. dhahaithu not being there mentioned,) and and id’hiyy and Ud’hiyyath and ud’huwwath (K) The place of the laying of eggs, (S, K,) and of the hatching thereof, (S,) , of the ostrich, (S. K. ) in the sand; (K; ) because that bird expands it, and makes it wide, with its foot, or leg; for the ostrich has no (nest such as is termed) Ush (S: ) pl. Adahin (TA in the present art.) and Adahee (i. e., if not a mistranscription, Adahiyyu agreeably with the sing.): (TA in art. dhaha and mudhhiyya (likewise) signifies the place of the eggs of the ostrich. (S.) (Hence,) binthu Adh’hiyyathun A female ostrich. (TA.)_(Hence also,) Al Udkhiyyu and Al Id’hiyyu A certain Mansion of the Moon, (K, TA,) (namely, the Twenty-first Mansion,) between the Na’aai’m sa’dha zabih (more commonly) called Al Baldath likened to the Adhahhee of the ostrich. (TA.)

Ud’huwwath and udh’hiyyath: see the next preceding paragraph, in three places: - and for the latter, see also mid’hath, below.

Mad’han see ud’hiyy

Mid’hath A wooden thing with which a child is driven along (yud’ha), and which, passing over the ground, sweeps away everything against which it comes (K, TA.) - Accord. to Sh, A certain thing with which the people of Mekkeh play: he says, I heard El-Asadee describe it thus: Almadahiyy and Almasadiyy signify stones like the (small round cake of bread called) qursath, according to the size which a hole is dug, and widened a little: then they throw those stones (yad’hoona biha) to that hole and if the stone fall therein, the person wins; but if not, he is overcome: you say of him yad’hoo and yasdoo when he throws the stones (Iza dhahaha) over the ground to the hole: and the hole is called ud'hiyyath. (TA.) (Accord. to Freytag, the authority of the Deewan El-Hudhaleeyeen, A round thing made of lead, by the throwing of which persons contend together.)

Almadhuwwath and almad’hiyyath see Dahin.

Like I keep reiterating, I am not arguing that Muslims or even the Quran implies a flat a earth, I am simply arguing that there is enough evidence from Islamic scholars and the religious text to back up a geocentric model through Islamic lenses.

Nonetheless, it may be better to move on from the issues that are open to interpretation and move on to ones everyone agrees on. Such as the irrationalities of the prophet flying to heaven on a winged horse, splitting of the moon, splitting of the sea, Adam/Eve story and so on. All of these are irrational violate basic human logic. How do you defend them if you stand behind the idea that Islam is rational?

 

[The_Cosmos]

Thanks for this contribution. They are the most dogmatic human beings on earth. And they take people for being stupid. Dishonesty is their religion.

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any deities and thus it's complete rubbish to position us on the same level as the dogmatic religious folk. Atheists, at least this one, doesn't take anyone for being stupid, at least not to their faces, but do very much look upon certain ideas that propagate irrational principles, as being stupid. I can provide Hadiths that clearly and utterly violate the laws of physics that we know of and violate our basic understandings of how genetics work.

 

[Burhan]

Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any deities and thus it's complete rubbish to position us on the same level as the dogmatic religious folk. Atheists, at least this one, doesn't take anyone for being stupid, at least not to their faces, but do very much look upon certain ideas that propagate irrational principles, as being stupid. I can provide Hadiths that clearly and utterly violate the laws of physics that we know of and violate our basic understandings of how genetics work.

For someone who posts fish walking out of the sea as evidence
- actually believes transitional animals did exist and it will be a matter of time for people to find their fossils ,
- for that atheist to question half something and half something else ride is laughable.

You believe in the same yet you don't see it. If I was an atheist, I would be the last person to question anything and call it irrational.

I am hitting the sac cosmonav, I get work tomorrow. I will get back inshallah when I can.. You can get some sleep too instead of waiting for answers, At least I can be generous that way.

 

[The_Cosmos]

For someone who posts fish walking out of the sea as evidence
- actually believes transitional animals did exist and it will be a matter of time for people to find their fossils ,
- for that atheist to question half something and half something else ride is laughable.

You believe in the same yet you don't see it. If I was an atheist, I would be the last person to question anything and call it irrational.

I am hitting the sac cosmonav, I get work tomorrow. I will get back inshallah when I can.. You can get some sleep too instead of waiting for answers, At least I can be generous that way.

Have you watched the video??? If you watched the video you'd see the evidence for evolution and that point that it makes. Instead, you looked at the front image and then dismissed it as "fish walking out of the sea". I mean, how laughable is that?! That you argue against evolution but is so ignorant about it that you would look at the front image of the video and then accuse evolution of propagating "fish walking out of the sea". And you called me the intellectually dishonest one!!



The amount of scientific predictions that evolution has made and has been confirmed (not the half baked religious predictions) is unprecedented. Evolution is a fact and that scares you because it details the obvious. Humanity is NOT the product of sibling fuckery. It's laughable that I should even point that out.

 

[Winchester76]

He is not interested in an actual dialogue or even a debate. All Muslims do is parrot their bullshit. Notice how many times you have to repeat yourself? How many times he gets off topic? Who needs advertising, Islam is like a dressed up turd, take apart the fancy eastern dress and the smell of shit hits you in the face. These comments add to our ranks, no way an intelligent person reads these comments and doesnt start looking for the backdoor

 

[Burhan]

He is not interested in an actual dialogue or even a debate. All Muslims do is parrot their bullshit. Notice how many times you have to repeat yourself? How many times he gets off topic? Who needs advertising, Islam is like a dressed up turd, take apart the fancy eastern dress and the smell of shit hits you in the face. These comments add to our ranks, no way an intelligent person reads these comments and doesnt start looking for the backdoor

And somehow that same Islam and it's people bring out the real idiocy and dogma out of you.

For someone who is happy being classed as not fully developed ape for being african, you all fit the part.

Just die out of your misery.

 

[Winchester76]

Same tired bullshit dogma kulaha muppet

 

[simulacrum]

@Inquisitive_ You are right in that jet fuel can't melt steel beams, however with enough fire coming from inside the building + jet fuel it can cause the steel beams to bend thus weakening structure of the building. Building 7 on the other hand collapsed due to falling debris that ignited combustible material inside the building. Many structural engineers had corroborated this story. Why would they lie?

I personally haven't looked into the 9/11 conspiracy theory that much but from what I understand thus far is that there are growing number of people who believe that the buildings collapsed as a result of controlled demolition. I'm not a structural engineer, so I can't give a detailed explanation as to what happened that day or know enough to dismiss the official narrative.

However I still don't buy into the geopolitical aspect of the conspiracy theory because why would the US government take down their own towers and use it as a pretext to go to war with Iraq just for oil? Since when does the US government need any reasons to invade a middle-eastern country? History has shown, they do it without getting any consent from the public, more often and not, they concoct their own reasons to invade a country. Even Noam Chomsky, a fervent critic and extensive writer of the atrocities committed by the US government, doesn't buy into the conspiracy theory.

Nazi Eugenics was based on the concept of the survival of the fittest promulgated by Spencer, Hitler never understood evolution in the Darwinian sense, only his own parochial view of ''evolution'' which is cultural acquisitions such as technology, military, infrastructure and other complex cultural artifacts. Ironically, Hitler was more of a creationist than an evolutionist because he didn't believe in speciation This guy explains it more eloquently than I can.




Theory of evolution doesn't purport to say that some races have ''progressed'' more. That's preposterous! That shows to me that you don't understand the theory of evolution. Besides, is it Darwin's fault that other racist intellectuals such as Spencer misconstrued his theory of evolution to purvey their own version (social darwinism) which consequently inspired a man like Hitler? I don't think so. Darwin said that we all belong to the same taxonomic classification which is Homo Sapiens and evolved from a common ancestor. Christian creationists at that time had their own religious racist views, way before ''the origin of the species'' was published. They didn't even believe that black people were 'human.

Now was Darwin a racist? I wouldn't be surprised if he was to be honest, after all he was a product of his environment. For a racist he was quite liberal though, he was vehemently against slavery and financially supported organizations that wanted to abolish it. Despite his cultural biases, his theory of evolution updated to current understanding hasn't been refuted.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

Stop fighting over religion when will this poison end it's grasps are still present to this day. Bloodshed has always followed when religion is mentioned. Why can't people get along and learn to love eachother ? I hate this arguments it's getting tedious and tiring? I am utterly lost in meloncholy, how is such a buetiful intelligent form the human race so fragile and weak.

Because we ain't women

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

Nobody mentioned flat earth and the Quran but OP sure will argue with you on your conclusions there. He believes in a flat earth and will most likely use the Quran as a defence of that position. Plus, you can't just dismiss the flat earth understanding of the Quran as it was pretty prominent in the past.

Tafsirs on the verse 79:30
The tafsirs explain that this verse describes the Earth to be flat.

Al-Jalalayn:

and after that He spread out the earth He made it flat for it had been created before the heaven but without having been spread out;
Al-Jalalayn
Tanwir Al-Miqbas:

(And after that He spread the earth) even then He spread it on the water; it is also said: 2,000 years after that He spread it on the water,

Tanwir Al-Miqbas


http://main.altafsir.com/Tafasir.as...hNo=20&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=

"And the earth how it was laid out flat? and thus infer from this the power of God exalted be He and His Oneness? The commencing with the mention of camels is because they are closer in contact with it the earth than any other animal. As for His words sutihat ‘laid out flat’ this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the revealed Law and not a sphere as astronomers ahl al-hay’a have it even if this latter does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law."

This comes from the tafsir of Al Jalalayn of the Quran chapter 88 verse 20. He is one the most popular ones.

Also, regurgitating arguments isn't a bad thing because we all do it, even you. The important thing is how well you defend it.

View attachment 11345

Scholars make mistake and they are human, Allah will give him 1 reward even though he made a mistake. However, there is an ijma that the earth is round and it is not flat.

You quoted one scholar with a shadh opinion (odd opinion unshared by the rest of scholars who unanimously agreed that the earth is round).

Ibn Taymiyah narrated that from Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi (may Allah have mercy on him), when he said:

Imam Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al-Munaadi narrated from the prominent scholars who are well known for knowledge of reports and major works in religious sciences, from the second level of Ahmad’s companions, that there was no difference of opinion among the scholars that the sky is like a ball.

He said: Similarly they were unanimously agreed that the Earth, with all that is contains of land and sea is like a ball. He said: That is indicated by the fact that the sun, moon and stars do not rise and set over those who are in different parts of the earth at the same time; rather that occurs in the east before it occurs in the west.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa(25/195)

Another quote from one of the greatest scholars of Islam, Ibn Hazm(rh):

None of the leading Muslim scholars who deserve to be called imams or leaders in knowledge (may Allah be pleased with them) denied that the earth is round, and there is no narration from them to deny that. Rather the evidence in the Qur’an and Sunnah stated that it is round
End quote from al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Ahwa’ wa’l-Nihal (2/78)

Stupid atheists that love lying out of their teeth with no embarrassment.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

Again, you seem to not understand the point that is being made. Al Jalalayn didn't come up with this conclusion on his own, he has arrived to this conclusion as a result of the consensus among the scholars of his time who unanimously agreed that the Earth, according to Islam, was flat. If anything, what you have shown is that the understanding of the Quran changes depending on the times in which people live in. What people thought to be the Quranic understanding can be dismissed by a later society to be the wrong understanding. This proves, that the Quran itself isn't clear and its meaning is subjective to the time period that one lives in.

When people were ignorant of the scientific method, they concluded that the Quran states the Earth is flat. When everybody is fluent in the scientific understanding of our world, they change their interpretation and claim our book was right all along whilst claiming everybody else had the wrong interpretation.




Yes, we just 'chose' to leave Islam to fulfill our sinful desires knowing that we will burn for eternity when we die.


It's also funny how you (Burhan) concede the the logical problems with Christianity like the trinity but refuse to concede that Islam also has similar irrational beliefs that it pushes as fact. Plus, surely an omnipotent God who can fly a man to heaven on a winged horse can also present himself in the form of the trinity if he so chose. Why is it that you're willing to exercise logic when other religions are concerned by refuse to conduct similar analysis to your beliefs. You're just one of those religious people who speaks of open mindedness only to refer to the atheists when they reject your baseless claims.

Ya khabeeth may Allah humiliate you and torment you in the grave

All scholars of Islam have unanimously agreed that the earth is round and as I've quoted, ibn hazm even said that NO scholar WORTH being called a scholar has ever said that the earth is not round. Ibn taymiyyah quoted a narration from the salaf, a companion of imam Ahmed, that there is not a single scholar or imam that says the earth is not round. Who are the salaf? The prophet saw said that the salaf are the best generation after the Sahaba!!

You are completely academically dishonest and your argument is built on lies like the dirty atheist you are. Actually calling you academically dishonest would be a compliment you just make up as you go along because you know you cannot defend your kufr. Now go and hide like you always do when you get karbaashed.

 

[Inquisitive_]

@simulacrum

Why don't you make your position and stance clear ? why hide from it?

You are arguing from a very bizarre position that seems to suggest that for as long as the establishment, polytheistic Europhile God believer community has an 'explanation' that sounds 'palatable' to me or a 'counter' argument that somewhat sounds rational at face value, therefore 'they must be right' because they have experts to back them up, is only a few steps above blind sheeple following my friend.

I can bring you 100 experts in different fields, in fact you can find them on Youtube yourself, listen to their interviews on independent radio stations, structural railroad engineers that build tracks that are over 1000 miles in Russia, explaining, there was not a single curvature, or the special US navy that operated the laser guided missiles explaining on video that they would shoot over 100's of miles, not accounting for any curvature or even worse the 'Coriolis' effect, it's not even built into the program. I can bring you the engineer that made those weapons himself saying this and various others all flat earthers since they started to think rationally.

I have no idea why you chose this line of argument, of course they are going to have a counter argument, it's called damage control, if they didn't, they would have disappeared into obscurity, but like you said, you don't really know much about it to prove or disprove so what's the point posting that to me? I saw that video, I read those quackademic counter arguments and flimsy attempts at damage control, that story changed a few times which you expect, much like Europhile God's they follow change their stories ever so often, I laughed at it, I expected it also, because once you have embraced the lunatic realm of absurdity, everything becomes possible.

I can concoct you a theory right now out of thin air, pay a few experts to collaborate the story with me, then do a video, then show you, as though I have done something meaningful, worthy of believe, it's a lunatic depraved way of thinking my friend, I expected more from you.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Scholars make mistake and they are human, Allah will give him 1 reward even though he made a mistake. However, there is an ijma that the earth is round and it is not flat.

You quoted one scholar with a shadh opinion (odd opinion unshared by the rest of scholars who unanimously agreed that the earth is round).

Ibn Taymiyah narrated that from Abu’l-Husayn ibn al-Munaadi (may Allah have mercy on him), when he said:

Imam Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al-Munaadi narrated from the prominent scholars who are well known for knowledge of reports and major works in religious sciences, from the second level of Ahmad’s companions, that there was no difference of opinion among the scholars that the sky is like a ball.

He said: Similarly they were unanimously agreed that the Earth, with all that is contains of land and sea is like a ball. He said: That is indicated by the fact that the sun, moon and stars do not rise and set over those who are in different parts of the earth at the same time; rather that occurs in the east before it occurs in the west.

End quote from Majmoo‘ al-Fataawa(25/195)

Another quote from one of the greatest scholars of Islam, Ibn Hazm(rh):

None of the leading Muslim scholars who deserve to be called imams or leaders in knowledge (may Allah be pleased with them) denied that the earth is round, and there is no narration from them to deny that. Rather the evidence in the Qur’an and Sunnah stated that it is round
End quote from al-Fasl fi’l-Milal wa’l-Ahwa’ wa’l-Nihal (2/78)

Stupid atheists that love lying out of their teeth with no embarrassment.

Ya khabeeth may Allah humiliate you and torment you in the grave

All scholars of Islam have unanimously agreed that the earth is round and as I've quoted, ibn hazm even said that NO scholar WORTH being called a scholar has ever said that the earth is not round. Ibn taymiyyah quoted a narration from the salaf, a companion of imam Ahmed, that there is not a single scholar or imam that says the earth is not round. Who are the salaf? The prophet saw said that the salaf are the best generation after the Sahaba!!

You are completely academically dishonest and your argument is built on lies like the dirty atheist you are. Actually calling you academically dishonest would be a compliment you just make up as you go along because you know you cannot defend your kufr. Now go and hide like you always do when you get karbaashed.

It's beyond bewildering how someone could read your posts but still miss the points you make. It's seems all of you fail in that field.

I did not claim that the the Quran states or implies a flat earth, I simply stated that different great scholars at different times has different ideas and different scholars. Every single one of you seem to ignore that Al Jalalayn never came up with these views on his own, he has clearly states that this was the consensus of the scholars of his time. There was a consensus among the scholars of his time that the Earth was flat. I'll provide the quotes to illustrate how dishonest you lot are.

Al Jalalayn is one of the greatest Islamic commentators.

http://main.altafsir.com/Tafasir.as...No=20&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

And the earth how it was laid out flat? and thus infer from this the power of God exalted be He and His Oneness? The commencing with the mention of camels is because they are closer in contact with it the earth than any other animal. As for His words sutihat ‘laid out flat’ this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the revealed Law and not a sphere as astronomers ahl al-hay’a have it even if this latter does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law.

You can say one scholar is wrong, but are you seriously going throw the consensus of the scholars if his time under the bus??

Nonetheless, I will provide further evidence that it is very valid for one to interpret a geocentric model from the teachings of Islam. (Not saying that it is absolutely the case).

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the Sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the Sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
Sahih Muslim 1:297

…So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious…
Sahih Bukhari 4:53:353

There is more as well that make the case more damning.

https://islamqa.info/en/70217

The Holy Qur’an indicates in two places that the earth was created before the heavens. That is in the verses in which Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything”

[al-Baqarah 2:29]

And:

“Say (O Muhammad (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him)): Do you verily disbelieve in Him Who created the earth in two Days and you set up rivals (in worship) with Him? That is the Lord of the ‘Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists).

He placed therein (i.e. the earth) firm mountains from above it, and He blessed it, and measured therein its sustenance (for its dwellers) in four Days equal (i.e. all these four days were equal in the length of time), for all those who ask (about its creation).

Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven when it was smoke, and said to it and to the earth: ‘Come both of you willingly or unwillingly.’ They both said: ‘We come, willingly’”

[Fussilat 41:9-11].

This does not contradict the passage in Soorat an-Naazi‘aat in which Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Are you more difficult to create, or is the heaven that He constructed?

He raised its height, and He has equally ordered it,

Its night He covers with darkness, and its forenoon He brings out (with light).

And after that He spread the earth;

And brought forth therefrom its water and its pasture”

[an-Naazi‘aat 79:27-31].

So the earth was created first, not spread, then the heaven was created, then the earth was spread, by bringing forth water and pasture from it, i.e., trees, crops and so on.

The Earth was created before the heavens.

This is an image made by someone else but I thought would be useful. We live on a not so perfect sphere (duh!) which means that praying 5 times a day becomes a bit tricky (the Islamic scientists of the golden age saw this). All Muslims must pray to the direction of the Kaaba but the problem is, if you live in the U.K. for example, that wouldn't be possible. When Muslims think they're praying to the Kaaba, they're often times praying to deep space. What this shows is that only a flat earth model is compatible with praying and so it adds more evidence to the geocentric model.

This one of the instances that show the Christian prayer makes more sense.

 

[Inquisitive_]

@The_Cosmos

The earth is flat, and the only reason you and Burhan are squabbling over this, is both of you have been indoctrinated from a young age, when your feeble minds are most weak and ripe for dogma

None of you understand much about it of course, and if you stood to my face or if you dare take up my challenge to do this over the Somalispot video chat, I will make a separate thread to get an audience and humiliate you for the blind deaf dumb charlatan that you are.

I will even produce a flyer for this and we will promote this together for a few days on a given date and time we both agree on for maximum exposure, put up or shut up. done this a 1000 times before, you quakademic blind charlatan.

 

[The_Cosmos]

@The_Cosmos

The earth is flat, and the only reason you and Burhan are squabbling over this, is both of you have been indoctrinated from a young age, when your feeble minds are most weak and ripe for dogma

None of you understand much about it of course, and if you stood to my face or if you dare take up my challenge to do this over the Somalispot video chat, I will make a separate thread to get an audience and humiliate you for the blind deaf dumb charlatan that you are. I will even produce a flyer for this and we will promote this together for a few days on a given date and time we both agree on, put up or shut up.

Nobody on this forum is going to debate silly ideas that the lines of you concocted. There have already been debates on the nature of the shape of the Earth. Go look for them and bring those back to life!! Debating with you will be useless as you have a tinfoil hat on!

Also, it's funny how you claim we're the indoctrinated ones yet here you are, spouting the religion that mummy and daddy said was the truth. I have no time for the likes of you.

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

It's beyond bewildering how someone could read your posts but still miss the points you make. It's seems all of you fail in that field.

I did not claim that the the Quran states or implies a flat earth, I simply stated that different great scholars at different times has different ideas and different scholars. Every single one of you seem to ignore that Al Jalalayn never came up with these views on his own, he has clearly states that this was the consensus of the scholars of his time. There was a consensus among the scholars of his time that the Earth was flat. I'll provide the quotes to illustrate how dishonest you lot are.

Al Jalalayn is one of the greatest Islamic commentators.

http://main.altafsir.com/Tafasir.as...No=20&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2



You can say one scholar is wrong, but are you seriously going throw the consensus of the scholars if his time under the bus??

Nonetheless, I will provide further evidence that it is very valid for one to interpret a geocentric model from the teachings of Islam. (Not saying that it is absolutely the case).

It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the Sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the Sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
Sahih Muslim 1:297

…So, the prophet carried out the expedition and when he reached that town at the time or nearly at the time of the ‘Asr prayer, he said to the sun, ‘O sun! You are under Allah’s Order and I am under Allah’s Order O Allah! Stop it (i.e. the sun) from setting.’ It was stopped till Allah made him victorious…
Sahih Bukhari 4:53:353

There is more as well that make the case more damning.

https://islamqa.info/en/70217



The Earth was created before the heavens.

View attachment 11430

This is an image made by someone else but I thought would be useful. We live on a not so perfect sphere (duh!) which means that praying 5 times a day becomes a bit tricky (the Islamic scientists of the golden age saw this). All Muslims must pray to the direction of the Kaaba but the problem is, if you live in the U.K. for example, that wouldn't be possible. When Muslims think they're praying to the Kaaba, they're often times praying to deep space. What this shows is that only a flat earth model is compatible with praying and so it adds more evidence to the geocentric model.
View attachment 11431

This one of the instances that show the Christian prayer makes more sense.

Constant lying without any shame it seems. There has never been a consensus that the earth is flat, ever since the time of the salaf; the blessed generation; the consensus has been that the earth is round.

I posted proof from two of the greatest scholars of Islam BOTH saying that no scholar of Islam holds the opinion that the earth is flat other than ignorant who was influenced by stupid Greek philosophers. Jalalayn's tafseer was completed in the 16th century, nearly 900 years after the hijra.

You posted from IslamQA, and started making up your own opinion about the idea that the flat earth has some sort of legitimacy in Islam. All you had to do is search for what they had to say. Here, let me post it for you:

https://islamqa.info/en/211655
"The scholars are unanimously agreed that the earth is round, but to human eyes it appears to be flat, because it is very big and its roundness or curvature cannot be seen at close distances. So the one who stands and looks sees it as flat, but when viewed as a whole, in reality it is round. "

Can you read that? This is an Islamic source, not an atheist source that you keep copy+past-ing from. It says very clearly that the scholars ALL AGREE THAT THE EARTH IS ROUND. Now go back into the hole you came from!

 

[Inquisitive_]

@The_Cosmos

Miskeen, I know your cheap charlatan cowardice types very well, quick to debate the ignoramus on these topics but runs when the lion arrives at the table.

It's ok dude I understand, there is an empty reputation to protect here, my belief in flat earth, is through observation, experiments, extensive research and best of all common-sense, religion didn't even play a factor, in fact I wasn't even religious at all when I was undertaking this task a decade ago.

Deep down you know the truth, your cowardice, your blind faith, your lack of knowledge on this topic, and that I will quickly expose you like the blind ignorant sheeple piglet that you, it's ok, it's always better to run then face up to your nightmares, I understand, now go back to your Europhile sheeple blind worship and prostate in humility you peasant.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Constant lying without any shame it seems. There has never been a consensus that the earth is flat, ever since the time of the salaf; the blessed generation; the consensus has been that the earth is round.

I posted proof from two of the greatest scholars of Islam BOTH saying that no scholar of Islam holds the opinion that the earth is flat other than ignorant who was influenced by stupid Greek philosophers. Jalalayn's tafseer was completed in the 16th century, nearly 900 years after the hijra.

You posted from IslamQA, and started making up your own opinion about the idea that the flat earth has some sort of legitimacy in Islam. All you had to do is search for what they had to say. Here, let me post it for you:

https://islamqa.info/en/211655
"The scholars are unanimously agreed that the earth is round, but to human eyes it appears to be flat, because it is very big and its roundness or curvature cannot be seen at close distances. So the one who stands and looks sees it as flat, but when viewed as a whole, in reality it is round. "

Can you read that? This is an Islamic source, not an atheist source that you keep copy+past-ing from. It says very clearly that the scholars ALL AGREE THAT THE EARTH IS ROUND. Now go back into the hole you came from!

Again, Al Jalalayn is a top Muslim scholar who was from the 16th century and he made it abundantly clear that the scholars were in consensus that the Earth is fiat. I have also provided evidence from the Quran and Hadith that can justify a geocentric model of the world but you seem to be caught up on petty name calling.

I posted proof from two of the greatest scholars of Islam BOTH saying that no scholar of Islam holds the opinion that the earth is flat other than ignorant who was influenced by stupid Greek philosophers.

This just exposes how much you actually know about reality. It was the ancient Greeks who discovered that the earth was round and even managed to calculate it with surprising accuracy. Call me a liar but you just exposed your intellect.

Can you read that? This is an Islamic source, not an atheist source that you keep copy+past-ing from. It says very clearly that the scholars ALL AGREE THAT THE EARTH IS ROUND. Now go back into the hole you came from!

Again, the source I used is not atheistic. This is a lie that you as concocted by Burhan that you seem to regurgitate. Prove that my source is an atheist source!

Anyways, you have completely skipped over the Quranic and Hadith evidence which I have articulated argues for a geocentric viewpoint if the world. You'll accuse me of intellectual dishonesty but it seems you're the only one who addresses only the points that you feel you can reply to.

Islam presents a geocentric model of the world and I have articulated that in my previous post.

 

[simulacrum]

@Inquisitive_ I like to consider myself pragmatist, I only adopt ideas that have practical use for me. It's also one of the myriads reasons I left Islam because it serves no use in this day and age. The Quran doesn't contain any scientific ideas worth considering or to ponder about and they can easily be dismissed by logic.

If one earnestly want to know about the world, modern science can give you better explanations with proofs, experiments, observations and predictions to back up their conjectures about reality. Science is not dogma unlike religion. Scientific theories can always be re-visioned, criticized and with insurmountable evidence even dismissed, as history has shown us.

You.think that modern science is corrupted by Europhiles that desperately want to push their decadent ideas down our throats because they have some kind of obscure agenda that you don't want to shed light on. Sxb, come on. Isn't that a bit far-fetched? Similarly, you take an even bigger leap of blind faith than I, by dismissing the theory of evolution and believing that an intelligent designer somehow magically created the flora and fauna we observe today. Really? Where did the intelligent designer come from then? Infinite regress.... and still none the wiser about our origins and how we have evolved on earth. The theory of evolution does give an explanation about how we possibly could have evolved with evidence from fossil records,molecular homology and countless experiments. Creationism, on the other hand, is not, in any sense, a working model capable of explaining anything at all. It isn't supported by anything and it has been disproved on every testable claim that it has made.

Say, I was curious about the world and I wanted to learn more about it. Do you really think I would visit an obscure little forum on the internet such as the one you linked? Nah sxb! I would instead go to my local uni and follow lectures or buy books written by eminent scientists. Isn't that more logical? I'm sure you have friends and families who have graduated from universities and went to become scientists without going to a conspiratorial forum to gain the necessary skills to pursue careers in their fields. Doesn't that at least tell us we should trust modern science a bit more?

 

[Winchester76]

haye! Hadal deh