Why don't they understand

I had a discussion with a guy because he thought that murder was caused by Allah. I said to him that Allah did not cause murder to happen because it was the perpetrators that cause it. I said to him that Allah knows everything that will happen to you and knows when you are going to die and what the cause is. We went back and forth for a while till I left the conversation.
Never gonna argue with a none believer again. Why is it so hard for them to understand?
 
you both were right: there's a chain of causes and effects: if i throw a stone and break a window - the flying stone is the cause of the break, but I'm the cause of the flying stone. so, both, me and the stone can be called "the cause" (both are in this chain).

god is the ultimate cause of everything. if god could create a world in which this murder didn't happen (or avoid creating anything at all) - there's no clear ways of saying that he wasn't the cause of all murders (or whatever else we don't like in this world)🤷‍♂️
 
I had a discussion with a guy because he thought that murder was caused by Allah. I said to him that Allah did not cause murder to happen because it was the perpetrators that cause it. I said to him that Allah knows everything that will happen to you and knows when you are going to die and what the cause is. We went back and forth for a while till I left the conversation.
Never gonna argue with a none believer again. Why is it so hard for them to understand?
Technically he has got a point. You cant say Allah is all knowing and point to qadr, yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder. The conundrum of qadr in Islam has confused minds greater than us.
 
Technically he has got a point. You cant say Allah is all knowing and point to qadr, yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder. The conundrum of qadr in Islam has confused minds greater than us.
My case is that the perpetrator (murderer) is the one that caused the murder but Allah knows how a person is gonna die and what the cause is. Allah first created the pen which wrote everything down even everything that was going to happen. It's confusing to some but not all.
May Allah guide you🙏
 
you both were right: there's a chain of causes and effects: if i throw a stone and break a window - the flying stone is the cause of the break, but I'm the cause of the flying stone. so, both, me and the stone can be called "the cause" (both are in this chain).

god is the ultimate cause of everything. if god could create a world in which this murder didn't happen (or avoid creating anything at all) - there's no clear ways of saying that he wasn't the cause of all murders (or whatever else we don't like in this world)🤷‍♂️
I agree that Allah has full control over everything.
 
Technically he has got a point. You cant say Allah is all knowing and point to qadr, yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder. The conundrum of qadr in Islam has confused minds greater than us.
Allah wrote everything that was going to happen to you in life.
You do not have free will because only Allah has will and you are only choosing options but Allah already knows which options you are going to choose.
 
My case is that the perpetrator (murderer) is the one that caused the murder but Allah knows how a person is gonna die and what the cause is. Allah first created the pen which wrote everything down even everything that was going to happen. It's confusing to some but not all.
May Allah guide you🙏
it seems you don't acknowledge the "chain of causes and effects", by focusing on the cause. as if that cause didn't have its own cause, tracing them back to god (the cause of all causes).

when people were making up god, they wanted him to be super-duper "all-everything", to woo potential adherents. they didn't care about logical problems and contradictions back then. modern apologists have to pay for that
 

Liban89

Agnostic
My case is that the perpetrator (murderer) is the one that caused the murder but Allah knows how a person is gonna die and what the cause is. Allah first created the pen which wrote everything down even everything that was going to happen. It's confusing to some but not all.
May Allah guide you🙏
Muslims split into many different groups regarding this exact topic, please read about (المعتزلة، القدرية، الجهمية، etc..)?

It's called معضلة القضاء والقدر the conundrum of Qadaa' and Qadr , it confused the greatest islamic minds, past and present, what makes you think it's clear cut issue as you claim?
 

Bundasliga

El Prezidento league de bunda
Technically he has got a point. You cant say Allah is all knowing and point to qadr, yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder. The conundrum of qadr in Islam has confused minds greater than us.
"yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder."

OP didnt say that & that's not even something Muslims believe in lol.

Maybe that's where you confusion comes from
 
the confusion comes from a contradictory story: there's no non-confusing ways of understanding how god...
1. created everything
2. knew that this murder will happen
3. could create it in another way
4. is not the cause of the murder
 
"yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder."

OP didnt say that & that's not even something Muslims believe in lol.

Maybe that's where you confusion comes from
You missed my point sxb I meant the issue of qada n qadr is extremely convoluted and has caused fractions within the deen. I don't like discussing it on here as I told you last time as it's one of those issues that has confused greater minds than us. My personal opinion is its a plothole within the deen that is probably left best as it is. Otherwise it becomes the big elephant in the room.
 
Muslims split into many different groups regarding this exact topic, please read about (المعتزلة، القدرية، الجهمية، etc..)?

It's called معضلة القضاء والقدر the conundrum of Qadaa' and Qadr , it confused the greatest islamic minds, past and present, what makes you think it's clear cut issue as you claim?
Maybe some people are blessed with a mind to understand it?
I understand it fully and I feel blessed :rejoice:
 

Bundasliga

El Prezidento league de bunda
You missed my point sxb I meant the issue of qada n qadr is extremely convoluted and has caused fractions within the deen. I don't like discussing it on here as I told you last time as it's one of those issues that has confused greater minds than us. My personal opinion is its a plothole within the deen that is probably left best as it is. Otherwise it becomes the big elephant in the room.
Sxb I know that .
It's hard to explain or to understand the attributes of God & its known that nobody can have the full understanding of it, but either way you still stated something that muslims don't believe in.
You cant say Allah is all knowing and point to qadr, yet say at the same time Allah could not stop anything in this case murder.
So again its basically a strawmen .
 

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