Who lived in kingdom of Kush?

[Hamzza]

It was an impressive civilization; it held its own against larger, more powerful civilizations time and time again.

You are real nilotic?
It seems most of the people in this site are not even somalis.

 

[Nilotic]

You are real nilotic?
It seems most of the people in this site are not even somalis.

Yes, I really am a Dinka. I think only a small handful of posters on here are non-Somali; the funny thing is that some people are actually convinced that I'm a sheegato -- a bored Somali persistently larping as a Dinka.

 

[Hamzza]

Yes, I really am a Dinka. I think only a small handful of posters on here are non-Somali; the funny thing is that some people are actually convinced that I'm a sheegato -- a bored Somali persistently larping as a Dinka.

Soo dhawoow mr. Dinka

 

[Nilotic]

View attachment 220875View attachment 220876
Soo dhawoow mr. Dinka

Waan ka helay furfurnaantaada, saaxib

 

[Hamzza]

Waan ka helay furfurnaantaada, saaxib

The expensive s.sudanese girl is she dinka?

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

We claim that Kush was an empire and that Nilotics played their part in the empire; some of the people depicted in the walls certainly look like us.

It seems clear now that Kushites were always Nilo-Saharans and not language shifted Cushites.

The Christian Nubian descendants seem even more Eurasian shifted then Cushites, how do you reconcile this revelation with your claim of Kushites not being language shifted Cushites?

The Christian Nubians were a mixture of Nilo-Saharan,Cushites and Egyptians but the Cushitic component dominated them from the runs I have done on them

 

[Nilotic]

The Christian Nubian descendants seem even more Eurasian shifted then Cushites, how do you reconcile this revelation with your claim of Kushites not being language shifted Cushites?

The Christian Nubians were a mixture of Nilo-Saharan,Cushites and Egyptians but the Cushitic component dominated them from the runs I have done on them

Good write up.

I reconcile this with the fact that:

The Kushites were not 'Nubians'; they were in fact a separate population that was at constant war with the 'Nubian' nomads of the Western Desert. The 'Nubians' were also known as Nubae, Noba or Nobatae whereas the Kushites were known as Aethiopians.

On the left of the course of the Nile live Nubae in Libya, a populous nation. They begin from Meroe, and extend as far as the bends (of the river). They are not subject to the Ethiopians, but live independently, being distributed into several sovereignties.(Strabo, Geography 17.1.2.)

According to the Greek historian Strabo: "The parts on the left side of the course of the Nile are inhabited by the Nubae, a large tribe, who, beginning at Meroe, extend as far as the bends of the river, and are not subject to the Ethiopians but are divided into several separate kingdoms (Kirwan 1974: 46). The composition of what these separate kingdoms might be is very difficult to sort out historically and geographically. Generally, it seems the Nubian tribes settled between the kingdom of Meroe in the South and Egypt in the North. The Nubians were perceived as "piratical" maurading tribes disrupting the trade between Egypt and the lucrative Sub-Saharan world represented by the kingdoms of Meroe and Aksum. ( The Encyclopaedia of Eastern Orthodox Christianity, John Anthony)

In the Egyptian Sudan, Budge speaks of these Nobatae or Nuba as "a powerful tribe of nomads who lived in the Western Desert and adds "The Nobatae appear to have come originally from Dar Fur and Kordofan and in Diocletian's time their settlements extended to the Oasis of Kharga ." Again he says "The people who lived in the deserts on the West of the Nile... were known to classical writers as 'Nubae' or 'Nubians', and 'Nobadae' or 'Nobatae' . In Roman times the Nubians consisted of a league of great tribes of the Western Desert."( A History of the Arabs in the Sudan)

It is highly likely that the Nubian language was brought to the Khartoum region by the Nuba of Ezana who introduced the Tanqasi culture... Although not all of Rouse's formal criteria for providing a migration have been met, the combine evidence of the Ezana inscription, of archaeology and of linguistics strongly supports a migration in the South which destroyed Meroe and introduced a Nubian language to that part of the Nile Valley. (The Kingdom of Alwa)

Greco-Roman writers consistently differentiated the Kushites of Meroe (the blackest people they knew) from the much lighter-skinned populations of Lower 'Nubia'.

It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians.” Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247,

The Kushites were long gone as population before the Nubians created their first civilizations -- the Christian era kingdoms. The earliest admixture date for the Lower 'Nubians' took place after Kush had already been established further South.

The Kushites were an Upper 'Nubian' population whereas the sample you're referring to are of Lower 'Nubians' from a latter date.


The vast majority of linguists (especially newer research) place Meroitic in the Nilo-Saharan phylum and trace the origins of this phylum to Wadi Howar -- an area in Darfur and Chad.

 

[Nilotic]

View attachment 220884

The expensive s.sudanese girl is she dinka?

She's likely Dinka and is probably from Lakes State -- the State with the tallest Dinka sections.

 

[Reformed J]

Good write up.

I reconcile this with the fact that:

The Kushites were not 'Nubians'; they were in fact a separate population that was at constant war with the 'Nubian' nomads of the Western Desert. The 'Nubians' were also known as Nubae, Noba or Nobatae whereas the Kushites were known as Aethiopians.









Greco-Roman writers consistently differentiated the Kushites of Meroe (the blackest people they knew) from the much lighter-skinned populations of Lower 'Nubia'.



The Kushites were long gone as population before the Nubians created their first civilizations -- the Christian era kingdoms. The earliest admixture date for the Lower 'Nubians' took place after Kush had already been established further South.

The Kushites were an Upper 'Nubian' population whereas the sample you're referring to are of Lower 'Nubians' from a latter date.


The vast majority of linguists (especially newer research) place Meroitic in the Nilo-Saharan phylum and trace the origins of this phylum to Wadi Howar -- an area in Darfur and Chad.

Reer Piye are honorary Cushites just based on the fact they refused to meet with Egyptian emissaries cause they were fish eaters

 

[Al-Ma'mun]

Good write up.

I reconcile this with the fact that:

The Kushites were not 'Nubians'; they were in fact a separate population that was at constant war with the 'Nubian' nomads of the Western Desert. The 'Nubians' were also known as Nubae, Noba or Nobatae whereas the Kushites were known as Aethiopians.









Greco-Roman writers consistently differentiated the Kushites of Meroe (the blackest people they knew) from the much lighter-skinned populations of Lower 'Nubia'.



The Kushites were long gone as population before the Nubians created their first civilizations -- the Christian era kingdoms. The earliest admixture date for the Lower 'Nubians' took place after Kush had already been established further South.

The Kushites were an Upper 'Nubian' population whereas the sample you're referring to are of Lower 'Nubians' from a latter date.


The vast majority of linguists (especially newer research) place Meroitic in the Nilo-Saharan phylum and trace the origins of this phylum to Wadi Howar -- an area in Darfur and Chad.

It seems Lower Nubia (Nile Valley) & the Eastern Deserts were distinctly Cushitic the C-Group and early Kerma of Lower Nubian Niley Valley are great examples of that plus many of the place names in Lower Nubia being of AA etymology (probably Cushitic).Still the modern Nubians and Christian Nubians show strong Nilo-Saharan admixture which is why their ancestors language shifted in the first place

Modern Nubians

Target: Nubian_Halfawi
Distance: 1.5416% / 0.01541644
78.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
15.0 Yemeni_Mahra
6.6 Dinka

Target: Nubian_Danagla
Distance: 1.0448% / 0.01044751
74.2 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
15.8 Dinka
10.0 Yemeni_Mahra

Target: Nubian_Mahas
Distance: 0.8144% / 0.00814372
75.4 Nubia_Medieval_Christian_Era_Kulubnarti
12.4 Dinka
12.2 Yemeni_Mahra


Some Christian Medieval Nubian samples and their breakdown

Target: Kulubnarti_MA_MA:I6253
Distance: 3.8658% / 0.03865846
55.8 Ancient_Cushitic_N:KEN_Pastoral_N
31.8 EGY_Late_Period
12.4 Dinka

Target: Kulubnarti_MA_MA:I6252
Distance: 3.5664% / 0.03566410
39.2 Ancient_Cushitic_N:KEN_Pastoral_N
34.0 EGY_Late_Period
26.8 Dinka

 

[Slickster]

We claim that Kush was an empire and that Nilotics played their part in the empire; some of the people depicted in the walls certainly look like us.

It seems clear now that Kushites were always Nilo-Saharans and not language shifted Cushites.

How is it now clear? What new evidences have become apparent? Is it linguistic or genetic?

 

[Nilotic]

How is it now clear? What new evidences have become apparent? Is it linguistic or genetic?

It's linguistic as well as genetic.

The date of the admixture event took place long after Kush was already established by Nilo-Saharan speakers; the creators of Nabta Playa were also Nilo-Saharan.

 

[Nilotic]

@Arma

What's up, dude?

 

[Som]

wasn't Meroe just city?

Meroe was the capital of a great Kingdom that extended from Sudan all the way to modern day south Egypt. The Meroe civilization even battled against the Romans in Egypt

 

[Som]

We claim that Kush was an empire and that Nilotics played their part in the empire; some of the people depicted in the walls certainly look like us.

It seems clear now that Kushites were always Nilo-Saharans and not language shifted Cushites.

Interesting. It seems though that modern Nubians have 60% African 40% west Eurasian just like somalis. If their west Eurasian is at least half Arab then it means they used to be almost 80% Nilotic before the Arabs came to Sudan. The Egyptian depiction of Nubians clearly point to what you are saying but my personal idea is that nilotics and Cushites mixed a lot and created the so called ancient Nubians

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

Good write up.

I reconcile this with the fact that:

The Kushites were not 'Nubians'; they were in fact a separate population that was at constant war with the 'Nubian' nomads of the Western Desert. The 'Nubians' were also known as Nubae, Noba or Nobatae whereas the Kushites were known as Aethiopians.









Greco-Roman writers consistently differentiated the Kushites of Meroe (the blackest people they knew) from the much lighter-skinned populations of Lower 'Nubia'.



The Kushites were long gone as population before the Nubians created their first civilizations -- the Christian era kingdoms. The earliest admixture date for the Lower 'Nubians' took place after Kush had already been established further South.

The Kushites were an Upper 'Nubian' population whereas the sample you're referring to are of Lower 'Nubians' from a latter date.


The vast majority of linguists (especially newer research) place Meroitic in the Nilo-Saharan phylum and trace the origins of this phylum to Wadi Howar -- an area in Darfur and Chad.

May you please provide me with further sources regarding this whole use of "Noba" to define a western desert people? There seems to be a lot of confusion about it and there's very little sources that discuss the Noba, who they were, their origins and how they came to assimilate, intermix and join with the meroites to create Modern Nubians.

 

[Nilo-Saharan]

How is it now clear? What new evidences have become apparent? Is it linguistic or genetic?

Both. Kushite languages all seem to be Nilo-Saharan with the exception of the Medjay language/s which have been established to be some form of ancient Cushitic spoken in the eastern desert by the ancestors of the Beja people today.

Genetics-wise, by dating the occurance of different migrations from the levant into africa and observing the timeline of Kush we can confidently say that Ancient Nubians would have had a lot less admixture than their medieval counterparts and genetic studies that have reversed the effect of admixture on the Nubian genome and studied the SSA component show that the Kushites would have either been Identical to some Modern Nilotes if not very close. Furthermore, its not just Genetic distance that ties nilotes (South Sudanese ones specifically) into Kush. There is knowledge from oral traditions and accounts of North to South migrations that make quite a strong suggestion that the ancestors of the Dinka and their distant cousins the Shilluk and Nuer, were all actively apart of Ancient Nubia and contributed to its greatness. So these people do indeed seem to have a direct ancestral link to Kush.

 

[Slickster]

Both. Kushite languages all seem to be Nilo-Saharan with the exception of the Medjay language/s which have been established to be some form of ancient Cushitic spoken in the eastern desert by the ancestors of the Beja people today.

You say this yet I have yet to find conclusive evidence of this. Lower Nubia, as far as I'm aware, could have spoken a Cushitic language up until really surprisingly recently. I am of the opinion that, yes, Pharaonic Nubian (idk the name lol) - the language of Taharqa and Piye - was likely Nilo-Saharan, but that really doesn't say much given our knowledge on how culturally diverse Nubia was.

Genetics-wise, by dating the occurance of different migrations from the levant into africa and observing the timeline of Kush we can confidently say that Ancient Nubians would have had a lot less admixture than their medieval counterparts and genetic studies that have reversed the effect of admixture on the Nubian genome and studied the SSA component show that the Kushites would have either been Identical to some Modern Nilotes if not very close. Furthermore, its not just Genetic distance that ties nilotes (South Sudanese ones specifically) into Kush. There is knowledge from oral traditions and accounts of North to South migrations that make quite a strong suggestion that the ancestors of the Dinka and their distant cousins the Shilluk and Nuer, were all actively apart of Ancient Nubia and contributed to its greatness. So these people do indeed seem to have a direct ancestral link to Kush.

The skeletal record doesn't suggest that at all. All the way from the time of the first cities south of Egypt, Nubians seem to be pretty damn Eurasian-rich. The progenitors of Nubian civilisation in the A Group Culture were quite literally straight to curly haired, potentially light brown-haired folk. You know? Kinda like their modern descendants around the first 2 cataracts. Here's what Strouhal had to say about them:

"In contrast to the sturdy nomadic or semi-sedentary human groups of presumed Saharan origin, the first agriculturalists and cattle-breeders, living in Nubia with a culture labelled by archaeologists as Group A in the 5th millennium BC, were slim and gracile, dolichocranic, with small faces and slightly broader noses. Their physical features were Caucasoid, not distinguishable from the contemporary Predynastic Upper Egyptians of the Badarian and Nagadian cultures"

Besides that, please provide evidence for the genetics point I'm pretty sure I know what you're referring to already, and it struggles with the same problems as your previous point. Also, what migrations? I'm a fan of oral traditions myself, but they don't do much for me when the evidence to the contrary is so convincing. I have an open mind, shoot.

 

[Slickster]

It seems clear now that Kushites were always Nilo-Saharans and not language shifted Cushites.

Another thing I've been meaning to ask: what exactly does it mean to be a language shifted population? Are Italians in Tuscany language shifted Etruscans? On the other hand, would Basque qualify as language shifted Celts? What does it mean (at least from a genetic standpoint)?

Say early Kushites were a real and very well defined people group; say they migrated to the Nile Valley at some point in prehistory and settled there well, perhaps they picked up a thing or two from people to their north who were Cushitic speakers, and the Cushitic speakers did the same. Say, then, these two populations get to mixing with each other, with Kushites picking up some "Cushitic" DNA and vice versa - are the more modern Kushites now language shifted Cushites? I mean, the people they mixed with were Cushites, and their offspring sure don't speak a Cushitic language.

This event too, I assume, would have been in prehistory, or at least before Pharoanic Nubia, yes? So what significance would it even have if it were the case that they were language shifted Cushites? All that matters is that they were NS speakers who may or may not have been part "Cushitic" with Cushitic cultural borrowings.

 

[Saciid]

You say this yet I have yet to find conclusive evidence of this. Lower Nubia, as far as I'm aware, could have spoken a Cushitic language up until really surprisingly recently.

How recent and what kind of Cushitic?