Which schools of Aqeedah do you subscribe too?

[Haragwaafi]

you call asharis jahmi remnants but why do you take from them? why do you listen scholars who take from tafsir al jalalayn? you have holes in your manhaj.

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You're throwing shabuhaat at me

قال الشيخ ابن عثيمين رحمه الله: "يحتمل أن يراد بذلك ساق الله، ويحتمل أن يراد بالساق الشدة، وقد قال السلف بهذين القولين"

Sheikh Ibn Uthaymeen, may God have mercy on him, said: “It is possible that what is meant by this is the leg of God, and it is possible that what is meant by the leg is hardship, and the salaf said these two sayings.”

 

[reer]

First Tafsir of the Quran:

"And the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]" (Qur'an 51:47),

al-Tabari ascribes the figurative explanation (ta’wil) of with hands as meaning "with power (bi quwwa)" through five chains of transmission to Ibn ‘Abbas, who died 68 years after the Hijra, Mujahid who died 104 years after the Hijra, Qatada [ibn Da‘ama] who died 118 years after the Hijra, Mansur [ibn Zadhan al-Thaqafi] who died 131 years after the Hijra, and Sufyan al-Thawri who died 161 years after the Hijra (Jami‘ al-bayan, 27.7–8).

Beware of the Day the Shin of Allah will be bared, and the wicked will be asked to prostrate, but they will not be able to do so
(Qur'an 68:42),

al-Tabari says, "A number of the exegetes of the Sahaba and their students (tabi‘in) held that it [a day when shin shall be exposed] means that a dire matter (amrun shadid) shall be disclosed" (Jami‘ al-bayan, 29.38)—the shin’s association with direness being that it was customary for Arab warriors fighting in the desert to ready themselves to move fast and hard through the sand in the thick of the fight by lifting the hems of their garments above the shin.

Al-Tabari also relates from Muhammad ibn ‘Ubayd al-Muharibi, who relates from Ibn al-Mubarak, from Usama ibn Zayd, from ‘Ikrima, from Ibn ‘Abbas that shin in the above verse means "a day of war and direness (harbin wa shidda)" (ibid., 29.38).

also from tafsir al tabari

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[reer]

You're throwing shabuhaat at me

قال الشيخ ابن عثيمين رحمه الله: "يحتمل أن يراد بذلك ساق الله، ويحتمل أن يراد بالساق الشدة، وقد قال السلف بهذين القولين"

Sheikh Ibn Uthaymeen, may God have mercy on him, said: “It is possible that what is meant by this is the leg of God, and it is possible that what is meant by the leg is hardship, and the salaf said these two sayings.”

so youre saying we shouldnt do ta'weel but you accept the ta'weel of ibn abbas mentioned in tafsir al tabari? it seems like both you and @World need to chill.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

so youre saying we shouldnt do ta'weel but you accept the ta'weel of ibn abbas mentioned in tafsir al tabari? it seems like both you and @World need to chill.

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[daljirkadahsoon]

As a Muslim you are not allowed to talk about the how's or ask about it when it comes to Allah swt attributes or sifaat

Imam Malik:

'The establishment (Istiwa) (on the throne) is known, the mode ('how') is unknown, asking about it is an innovation, and belief in it is compulsory'.

Yes we don't inquire into it. It was mujassima like you who compelled to propose acceptable interpretations as per the language of the Arabs to defend our aqeedah and Tawheed from being corrupted by ALIEN influences- yes your mujassim leanings are from other religions.

I'm not even Ash'ari or Maturidi but they are Ahlus Sunnah and orthodox schools unlike whatever it is you follow.

 

[reer]

They don't have a methodology or logically consistent aqeedah as per the Qur'an and Sunnah. It is based on whatever their 'shaykh' feels at a time.

Try asking them how Allah s.w.t is simultaneously physically sitting on the Kursi (as Ibn Taymiyyah) says and also descends to the lowest heaven every last 1/3 of the night AND how Allah s.w.t is simultaneously closer to us than our jugular vein.

Their 'aqeedah' is a bankrupt farce that has nothing to with Islam let alone Ahlus Sunnah and they made a mockery of our texts jahils in every sense of the word zero understanding of the Islamic sciences, the Arabic language, grammar or logic (to which they are allergic even though the Qur'an uses rational arguments and cry that it is a Greek invention LOL), etc.

it is important not be sectarian like @Haragwaafi or become anti athari like @World who is starting to sound like saeed foudah but cant come out against imam ahmed.

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[daljirkadahsoon]

it is important not be sectarian like @Haragwaafi or become anti athari like @World who is starting to sound like saeed foudah but cant come out against imam ahmed.

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It is wrong to oppose Imam Ahmad.

 

[World]

It's very clear Allah swt has mentioned his hands and they don't mean what the Jamiyaa Mut'azila and lately the Asha'ries come out with their lame ta'wil that it means "power" then it means Allah swt needed 2 powers to create Adam , العياذ بالله من هذا الكلام

This is what al-Tabari said in his Tafsir, i'll quote it again:

So the following believed that hands referred to power
-Ibn Abbas, Mujahid Ibn Jabr, Qatada ibn Di'ama, Mansur (ibn Zadhan al-Thaqafi), Sufyan al-Thawri.

Tafsir of Yahya bin Salam(born 124AH):

His statement Mighty and Majestic: Have they not seen that We have created for them cattle from among what Our hands have made? [Yasin: 71], meaning: by Our power in the interpretation of al-Hasan. Like His (Most High) saying: And We built the sky with (our) hands.

So this was also the understanding of Hassan al Basri.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

This is what al-Tabari said in his Tafsir, i'll quote it again:

So the following believed that hands referred to power
-Ibn Abbas, Mujahid Ibn Jabr, Qatada ibn Di'ama, Mansur (ibn Zadhan al-Thaqafi), Sufyan al-Thawri.

Tafsir of Yahya bin Salam(born 124AH):


So this was also the understanding of Hassan al Basri.

Now we will see if he calls these distinguished Salaf 'Jahmis'

 

[World]

you directly went to the hanbali madhab not ibn taymiyyah. like i said it looks like youre reaching fanatical ashari form like saeed foudeh. but cant directly attack imam ahmed for his creed because he is a imam.

Tafwid al Ma’na (to consign their intended meanings to Allah) is obviously the path of the salaf, but they didn't affirm the literal outward meanings. So if you are a hanbali and follow ibn qudamah's understanding then your creed is correct. Most the salaf were the same.

This is what Imam Nawawi said:

Imam Nawawi said, “Scholars disagree about the Quran verses and hadiths that deal with the Attributes of Allah, [such as Allah’s ‘hand’ (Quran 48:10), His ‘eyes’ (52:48), or His ‘nearness’ (50:16)] as to whether they should be discussed in terms of a particular figurative interpretation (tawil) or not.
Some say that they should be figuratively interpreted as befits them (ie interpreting His hand for example, as an allusion to His omnipotence). And this is more well known of the two positions of the scholastic theologians.

Others say that such verses should not be given a definitive interpretation, but rather their meaning should not be discussed, and the knowledge of them should be cosigned to Allah Most (tafwid), while at the same time believing in the transcendence of Allah Most High, and that the characteristics of created things do not apply to Him (Allah). For example, it should be said we believe that

“the All Merciful is ‘established’ (Arabic: istawa) on the Throne.” (Quran 20:5)

But we do not know the reality of the meaning of that, nor what is intended thereby, though we believe of Allah Most High that

“there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him (Quran 42:11)”

And that He is above indwelling in created things (hulul), or having the characteristics of temporal, contingent existence (huduth). And this is the path of the Early Muslims or the vast majority of them, and is the safest, for a person is not required to enter into discussions about this. When one believes in Allah’s transcendence above created things, there is no need for debate on it, or taking risks over what there is neither pressing necessity nor even any real call for.
But if the need arises for definitive interpretations to refute someone making unlawful innovations and the like, then the learned may supply them, and this is how we should understand what has come down to us from scholars in this field. And Allah knows best. (Al Majmu- Nawawi)

 

[Omar del Sur]

He'll dance around the obvious conclusions of his beliefs but just call anyone who disagrees with this blasphemy 'Jahmi' because according to him, literally affirming what is authentically in the texts and ascribing their meanings to Allah without seeking to do any interpretation of any kind whatsoever is apparently denying attributes of Allah.

BUT in this twisted ideology, positively interpreting these unclear verses to mean that Allah shares attributes with creation, 'but they are different from the attributes you know' is somehow fine.

which attributes do you not believe in?

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

which attributes do you not believe in?

There aren't any I don't believe in. We surrender the meanings to Allah and do not attempt to understand what they are at all whilst negating any similarity to creation.

 

[World]

it is important not be sectarian like @Haragwaafi or become anti athari like @World who is starting to sound like saeed foudah but cant come out against imam ahmed.

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I dont know who that is.

But this is my position:

 

[Awdalite]

which attributes do you not believe in?

Salafis contradict themselves quite fantastically. Had it not been so ridiculous it would have been laughable. The basis for their interpretative hermeneutics is not based on any formative principles which is why you cannot engage them with any rationality. They are literalist in Divinity and ex-communicate those who do not take that approach but are then figurative when they feel like it.

For example, they will argue that God Almighty is up there in the sky above the heavens because of the verse الرحمن على العرش استوى. Ok fine. But when you bring up that God says: أأمنتم من في السماء, which means that God is in "in" the Heavens I.e في السماء then its all of a sudden metaphorical or figurative and the interpretation is above the heavens and not in the heavens. It's a fantastic contradiction of principles. I'll throw another one in good measure. When they interpret His Hand I.e يد الله د as being a hand like no other hand, why does the literal interpretation not hold the same when God says نسوا الله فنسيهم, they forgot God, so God forgot them. Why don't the Salafis stick to a literal interpretation and say God forgets but not like the way we forget? They have no principles in their theology regarding Divinity. Another one, when God says فاتهم الله من حيث لم يحتسبوا, I.e God came to them from where they did not expect. Why do the Salafis not establish a literal interpretation here? They have no principles but what I would describe as a bedouin theology.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Salafis contradict themselves quite fantastically. Had it not been so ridiculous it would have been laughable. The basis for their interpretative hermeneutics is not based on any formative principles which is why you cannot engage them with any rationality. They are literalist in Divinity and ex-communicate those who do not take that approach but are then figurative when they feel like it.

For example, they will argue that God Almighty is up there in the sky above the heavens because of the verse الرحمن على العرش استوى. Ok fine. But when you bring up that God says: أأمنتم من في السماء, which means that God is in "in" the Heavens I.e في السماء then its all of a sudden metaphorical or figurative and the interpretation is above the heavens and not in the heavens. It's a fantastic contradiction of principles. I'll throw another one in good measure. When they interpret His Hand I.e يد الله د as being a hand like no other hand, why does the literal interpretation not hold the same when God says نسوا الله فنسيهم, they forgot God, so God forgot them. Why don't the Salafis stick to a literal interpretation and say God forgets but not like the way we forget? They have no principles in their theology regarding Divinity. Another one, when God says فاتهم الله من حيث لم يحتسبوا, I.e God came to them from where they did not expect. Why do the Salafis not establish a literal interpretation here? They have no principles but what I would describe as a bedouin theology.

Been saying this for ages walaal they just pretend they didn't read the objections and scream 'Jahmi' even though I am Athari lol

 

[Awdalite]

Been saying this for ages walaal they just pretend they didn't read the objections and scream 'Jahmi' even though I am Athari lol

Mainstream and popularised Saudi culture is the reason people identify as Salafi. It also has an element of it being a very simplistic and uncomplicated world view of Divinity. That's why it is quite popular with bedouin cultures in Arabia and the least educated/most deprived communities. It does serve a function. A theology based on discarding rationality will only end up dying. That's why the majority of ex Muslims often come from a Salafi background.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

Mainstream and popularised Saudi culture is the reason people identify as Salafi. It also has an element of it being a very simplistic and uncomplicated world view of Divinity. That's why it is quite popular with bedouin cultures in Arabia and the least educated/most deprived communities. It does serve a function. A theology based on discarding rationality will only end up dying. That's why the majority of ex Muslims often come from a Salafi background.

Popularised to the tune of billions and billions of dollars one estimate says the Saudi gov alone has spent $74-80 billion on it

 

[Haragwaafi]

This is what al-Tabari said in his Tafsir, i'll quote it again:

So the following believed that hands referred to power
-Ibn Abbas, Mujahid Ibn Jabr, Qatada ibn Di'ama, Mansur (ibn Zadhan al-Thaqafi), Sufyan al-Thawri.

Tafsir of Yahya bin Salam(born 124AH):


So this was also the understanding of Hassan al Basri.

Here's Tabari tafsir of the verse 64 chapter 6 :

قالوا: ففي قول الله تعالى:"بل يداه مبسوطتان"، مع إعلامه عبادَه أن نعمه لا تحصى، مع ما وصفنا من أنه غير معقول في كلام العرب أن اثنين يؤدّيان عن الجميع= ما ينبئ عن خطأ قول من قال: معنى"اليد"، في هذا الموضع، النعمة= وصحةِ قول من قال: إن"يد الله"، هي له صفة.

Tabari affirmed Allah's sifaat

 

[Haragwaafi]

Mainstream and popularised Saudi culture is the reason people identify as Salafi. It also has an element of it being a very simplistic and uncomplicated world view of Divinity. That's why it is quite popular with bedouin cultures in Arabia and the least educated/most deprived communities. It does serve a function. A theology based on discarding rationality will only end up dying. That's why the majority of ex Muslims often come from a Salafi background.

Majority of ex muslim are jaahils just like you if they knew the right creed they wouldn't have left and alhamdulilah when murtad reverts back to Islam they follow the minhaj which Ahlu Sunnah wa Jam'aa.

Mainstream and popularised Saudi culture is the reason people identify as Salafi. It also has an element of it being a very simplistic and uncomplicated world view of Divinity. That's why it is quite popular with bedouin cultures in Arabia and the least educated/most deprived communities. It does serve a function. A theology based on discarding rationality will only end up dying. That's why the majority of ex Muslims often come from a Salafi background.

Since you're jaahil the salafi movement in Arabia started by Abdulwahab initiated programs of settling bedouins in villages and teaching them the religion since so many of the nomads back then then didn't know the religion very well

 

[Haragwaafi]

it is important not be sectarian like @Haragwaafi or become anti athari like @World who is starting to sound like saeed foudah but cant come out against imam ahmed.

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Stating the facts isn't "sectarianism" as I'm using the Quran and the Sunnah of the prophet to back up my claims