Which is more corrupt?

Which is more corrupt: Somali government or al-Shabaab?

  • Al-Shabaab

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Duchess

HRH Duchess of Puntland, The Viscount of Garoowe
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Corrupt? Definitely the Somali government. But both entities are holding Somalia back. :francis:
 

HalyeeyQaran

Citizen of Southwest State
Of course the mooryaan-led government is more corrupt than Xarakat Shabaab al Mujahideen. It's in their ignoble blood.
 

Duchess

HRH Duchess of Puntland, The Viscount of Garoowe
VIP
I understand the government is holding Somalia back, but how is al-Shabaab doing so?
Are you serious? Al-Shabaab has so much innocent Somali blood on their hands and you want to ask how they're holding Somalia back?:drakewtf:
 
nambarA as the OP what are your thoughts on this?
I side with the majority.

Are you serious? Al-Shabaab has so much innocent Somali blood on their hands and you want to ask how they're holding Somalia back?:drakewtf:
Before al-Shabaab come into the picture, members (warlords, war criminals, etc) of the Somali government were responsible for the death of hundreds thousands of Somalis. If al-Shabaab didn't come into the picture, the international community wouldn't have intervened, and hundreds thousands of Somalis would continue to die to the present time and future.
 

Duchess

HRH Duchess of Puntland, The Viscount of Garoowe
VIP
I side with the majority.

Before al-Shabaab come into the picture, members (warlords, war criminals, etc) of the Somali government were responsible for the death of hundreds thousands of Somalis. If al-Shabaab didn't come into the picture, the international community wouldn't have intervened, and hundreds thousands of Somalis would continue to die to the present time and future.
So you're saying it's because the international community intervened that hundreds of thousands of Somalis are not being killed anymore? I guess southern Somalia should become a permanent UN territory then. :kobeok:
 
But Al-Shabaab was the military wing of the Islamic Courts Union.:damedamn:
No They werent They had nothing to do with islamic courts union. That is incorrect with zero evidence. False allegations. If anything more the UIC was a hinderance in their way.

The Union of Islamic Courts. The UIC ushered in a justice system as well as stability, which allowed the unrestricted delivery of aid to malnourished Somalis. By 2006 the UIC had united almost all of Somalia. The top UN official on Somalia, Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, stated that the time of the UIC rule was the “golden era” and the only break from the steady stream of misery for Somalis. The UIC was the first semblance of a stable central government in 15 years.


A leaked diplomatic cable published by Wikileaks revealed that the US wouldn’t tolerate the UIC gaining control of Somalia. The Bush administration likely believed the UIC would be too independent from US influence and mistakenly saw the UIC as sheltering radical Islamists. Despite no evidence of it.

In 2006 the US backed Ethiopia’s invasion of Somalia. It was a characteristic US proxy war with US troops on the ground, US intelligence informing strategy, and US air power providing support. The invasion turned into a brutal 2-year occupation, displacing hundreds of thousands and killing 16,000 civilians.

Rob Wise at the Center for Strategic and International Studies says the Ethiopian occupation transformed al Shabaab from a very weak force in Somalia to “the most powerful and radical faction in the country”.
 

Duchess

HRH Duchess of Puntland, The Viscount of Garoowe
VIP
No They werent They had nothing to do with islamic courts union. That is incorrect with zero evidence. False allegations. If anything more the UIC was a hinderance in their way.

The Union of Islamic Courts. The UIC ushered in a justice system as well as stability, which allowed the unrestricted delivery of aid to malnourished Somalis. By 2006 the UIC had united almost all of Somalia. The top UN official on Somalia, Ahmedou Ould-Abdallah, stated that the time of the UIC rule was the “golden era” and the only break from the steady stream of misery for Somalis. The UIC was the first semblance of a stable central government in 15 years.


A leaked diplomatic cable published by Wikileaks revealed that the US wouldn’t tolerate the UIC gaining control of Somalia. The Bush administration likely believed the UIC would be too independent from US influence and mistakenly saw the UIC as sheltering radical Islamists. Despite no evidence of it.

In 2006 the US backed Ethiopia’s invasion of Somalia. It was a characteristic US proxy war with US troops on the ground, US intelligence informing strategy, and US air power providing support. The invasion turned into a brutal 2-year occupation, displacing hundreds of thousands and killing 16,000 civilians.

Rob Wise at the Center for Strategic and International Studies says the Ethiopian occupation transformed al Shabaab from a very weak force in Somalia to “the most powerful and radical faction in the country”.

First, the UIC controlled parts of southern Somalia so how were they "the first semblance of a stable central government in 15 years"? Second, Al-Shabaab formed the military wing of the Courts. That is an established fact, not a false allegation with zero evidence. A quick Google search will give you all the evidence you need. Here is one such example:

Al Shabab, or "The Youth" in Arabic, is the largest militant organization fighting the transitional government in Somalia. [3] The group was previously the military wing of Islamic Court Union (ICU) that controlled central and southern Somalia starting in June-July 2006.
http://web.stanford.edu/group/mappingmilitants/cgi-bin/groups/view/61?highlight=shabab

This has nothing to do with the International Community & their view on the Courts or Ethiopia, but Al-Shabaab and their existence prior to any 'invasion' by Ethiopia. They existed and were part and parcel of the Islamic Courts Union.:kobeok:
 
The current day alshabab had little do with ICU as they are completly different group emerged from as Fraction of the organization after The fall ICU.

This what i was talking about. false allegations of sheltering radical islamists. most experts agree that the extremism and radicalization of Alshabab happened after the Ethiopias invasion and the fall of ICU.

A leaked diplomatic cable published by Wikileaks revealed that the US wouldn’t tolerate the UIC gaining control of Somalia. The Bush administration likely believed the UIC would be too independent from US influence and mistakenly saw the UIC as sheltering radical Islamists. Despite no evidence of it.
What you speak of is that dismembering of Islamic courts union in which the Alshabab emerged from and became radical.

Rob Wise at the Center for Strategic and International Studies says the Ethiopian occupation transformed al Shabaab from a very weak force in Somalia to “the most powerful and radical faction in the country”.
The study on alshabab read it.
http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM Futures Case Study_WEB.pdf

Foreign intervention: Foreign intervention, specifically the December 2006 Ethiopia invasion of Somalia, had a profound effect on Al shabaabs rise. The only Millitary force willing to resist the Ethiopians after the fall of the Islamic Courts Union(ICU), al shabaab was able to play on deep-seated somali antipathy toward Ethiopia to recruit thousands of nationalist volenteers. The invasion also molded the group's operational strategy, leading it to adopt guerilla tactics as a means of resistance. Further, by forcing the ICU leaders who had exerted a level of moderating influence on Alshabaab to flee Somalia, the invasion allowed the group to become even more radical, while at the same time severing ties to other somali organizations.
The ethiopian occupation had a direct effect on the emergance and the power alshabab has a radical fraction.. They ousted the ICU leaders and become extreme. So yes Its all due tot he fault of Abdullahi Yusuf
 

Duchess

HRH Duchess of Puntland, The Viscount of Garoowe
VIP
Sorry Geeljire, but you're grasping at straws. Al-Shabaab formed the MILITARY WING of the ICU, a Salafi Islamist organization that threatened to attack Ethiopia and neighboring Somali states. They were not pacifists and it's disingenuous to blame anyone for their 'radicalization' when their entire purpose was to fight/engage in violence. Many important figures in the ICU were part of AIAI, a radical Salafi Islamist organization that terrorized Somalis in the early 90s. The only reason the ICU disintegrated was because most of the organization decided to negotiate with the TFG and joined a coalition government with them, but Al-Shabaab refused to do so. The Ethiopians have been replaced by AMISOM, yet Al-Shabaab is still murdering Somalis. Are you going to blame Abdullahi Yusuf for that too?:damedamn:
 
Sorry Geeljire, but you're grasping at straws. Al-Shabaab formed the MILITARY WING of the ICU, a Salafi Islamist organization that threatened to attack Ethiopia and neighboring Somali states. They were not pacifists and it's disingenuous to blame anyone for their 'radicalization' when their entire purpose was to fight/engage in violence. Many important figures in the ICU were part of AIAI, a radical Salafi Islamist organization that terrorized Somalis in the early 90s. The only reason the ICU disintegrated was because most of the organization decided to negotiate with the TFG and joined a coalition government with them, but Al-Shabaab refused to do so. The Ethiopians have been replaced by AMISOM, yet Al-Shabaab is still murdering Somalis. Are you going to blame Abdullahi Yusuf for that too?:damedamn:
saying that they began as a fraction inside ICU means nothing and its irrelevant. All experts agree on is that they ousted the ICU leaders and Became radical extreme and powerful simply due to the Ethiopias invasion of somalia. Prior to the Ethipian invasion The ICU stabilized whole regions and allowed safe passage of aids. it was considered a golden era a break from the civil war.:comeon:

Please read the Alshabab case study http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM Futures Case Study_WEB.pdf
 

Duchess

HRH Duchess of Puntland, The Viscount of Garoowe
VIP
Al-Shabaab ousted ICU leaders? How is that possible when they were part of the ICU?:umwhat:

It was Sheikh Sharif, as leader of the Courts, who called on Al-Shabaab ( the military wing of the ICU) to start an insurgency against Ethiopia. What caused the schism between Al-Shabaab and the ICU leaders was the ICU's negotiations with the TFG and their attendance at the Asmara Conference, which Al-Shabaab boycotted. These leaders then formed the Alliance for the Reliberation of Somalia (ARS) and were given nearly 50% of the seats in the upcoming parliament, leading to Sheikh Sharifs election as the President of the TFG.

Source: https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=5-ariOvo_GwC&pg=PT132&lpg=PT132

President Yusuf resigned late in 2008 while United Nations-sponsored talks between the TFG and the opposition Alliance for the Re-Liberation of Somalia (ARS) were underway in Djibouti. In January 2009, following the creation of a TFG-ARS unity government, Ethiopian military forces, which had entered Somalia in December 2006 to support the TFG in the face of advances by the opposition Islamic Courts Union (ICU), withdrew from the country. The TFP was doubled in size to 550 seats with the addition of 200 ARS and 75 civil society members of parliament. The expanded parliament elected Sheikh SHARIF Sheikh Ahmed, the former ICU and ARS chairman as president in January 2009.
http://www.international.ucla.edu/africa/countries/96977
 
Al-Shabaab ousted ICU leaders? How is that possible when they were part of the ICU?:umwhat:
:comeon:

Prior to ethiopias invasion alshabab was little more than a bit player.


It was Sheikh Sharif, as leader of the Courts, who called on Al-Shabaab ( the military wing of the ICU) to start an insurgency against Ethiopia.
Alshabab was weak powerless and kept in check by the courts. Ethiopias invasion and disememberment changed that.





What caused the schism between Al-Shabaab and the ICU leaders was the ICU's negotiations with the TFG and their attendance at the Asmara Conference, which Al-Shabaab boycotted.
These leaders then formed the Alliance for the Reliberation of Somalia (ARS) and were given nearly 50% of the seats in the upcoming parliament, leading to Sheikh Sharifs election as the President of the TFG
The ICU leadership fled! and was outsted. As a result of the Ethiopian invasion. It became independent from ICU moderate control.




Without moderate voices to keep them in check.


The ethiopian invasion was directly responsible for for the ideological transformation Al shabab underwent through.
ICU ideologies was moderate due to leaderships belief.s. which appealed to everyone in somalia and gained popularity.
Alshabab was somewhat restrainded by th moderating influence of ICU, sheikh sharif you spoke later fled into neighbhoring countries.



There you have it

The ethiopian invasion was directly responsible for the transformation and the emergance of Al shabaab as a powerful radical extreme religious faction.:francis:



CSIS Homeland Security & Counterterrorism Program Tansnational Threats Project

Alshabaab Case study

http://csis.org/files/publication/110715_Wise_AlShabaab_AQAM Futures Case Study_WEB.pdf
 
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