Where are the Somali Historians?

[Factz]

We've already gone over this before I'll have to agree to disagree. To accept your interpretation requires ignoring too much evidence and too many leaps of logic and interpretations of specific passages of books from ill informed Europeans.

Who are the Europeans?

These are medieval Arab scholars who visited the Benadir coast. They were there and you weren't so of course I'll take their words. Another thing is the Roman and the ancient Chinese travellers visited the Barbara region. I'm showing you what these travellers said during their visit. You have no words. They are simply the best evidence we have today.

 

[James Dahl]

The sources are too scattered though, this is the problem. You make very firm and completely absolute pronouncements but the evidence is very thin, far too thin to draw any conclusions let alone absolute and total conclusions.

The sources are the unnamed source of both the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and Ptolemy's Geographica (they clearly used the same, now lost source, probably a Greek translation of a Ximyarite guide) around the year 100.

The next source is the Islamic Caliphate records which state that the Islamic Caliphate conquered the Banaadir coast to secure its annual tribute, and record Mogadishu rebelling in the 9th century against the annual tribute. This occurred around the year 700, so there is a 600 year gap. 600 years! 600 years is an absurdly long time, the Periplus might as well not exist, you can't make connections over a 600 year gap.

After this you have Banaadir tradition stating the founding of the republic in Shingaani in 917 of the 12 leading families and the Chief Qadi ruling the town.

The next record after this is 300 years later in the last 13th century the first Sultan Fakhr ad-Diin. How did he become Sultan of Mogadishu? What happened with the Republic? Nobody knows. There are legends but they don't seem very reliable. We only know about Fakhr ad-Diin because he built a masjid which still stands. He seems to correspond with the legendary "Shirazi" dynasty, though this also seems to apply to the Republic era. Personally I think the "Shirazi" is a mythical placeholder for "the people who build Mogadishu"

After his dynasty according to various Banaadir traditions there are the Xalawaani dynasty and the Zowzaaan dynasties and then the Muzaffar. We only know more about the Muzaffar because the Abgaal also have stories about him, otherwise we wouldn't know anything at all.

Ibn Battuta visited Mogadishu in 1331, did he visit Fakhr ad-Diin's dynasty? A Xalawaani ruler? Was the ruler Zowzaan? Another, forgotten dynasty? Nobody knows!

After Ibn Battuta we have to wait 300 years before we have another historical record about Mogadishu, when we get the Abgaal story about the conquest of Mogadishu. We get name-checks of Xalawaani, no mention of Zowzaan, and we find out that Muzaffar was "from Yemen" that he "had guns" and that he was "friend of the Ajuuraan". That's all we know about him and that's the most we ever learn about him.

In the 300 year gap between Ibn Battuta and the conquest of the Abgaal a lot of things happened, but there are no available accounts of those things. Did the Ajuuraan take over? Maybe! Do we know for sure? No! Were there other dynasties? Maybe! What were their names? Nobody knows!

 

[Yeeyi]

Ali Dable

In this source it says that he got exiled to yemen and got support from the Hadhramaut region to take over warsengali sultanet. It doesn't say that he started the sultanet in Aden,Yemen, but got his manpower from Hadhramaut,Yemen. And in wikipedia it says that he was the 13 Garad of the Warsengali, not the founder

Here's the source: https://books.google.no/books?id=1u...MQBHWDCBCoQ6AEwDnoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerad_Ali_Dable

 

[Grant]

The sources are too scattered though, this is the problem. You make very firm and completely absolute pronouncements but the evidence is very thin, far too thin to draw any conclusions let alone absolute and total conclusions.

The sources are the unnamed source of both the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and Ptolemy's Geographica (they clearly used the same, now lost source, probably a Greek translation of a Ximyarite guide) around the year 100.

The next source is the Islamic Caliphate records which state that the Islamic Caliphate conquered the Banaadir coast to secure its annual tribute, and record Mogadishu rebelling in the 9th century against the annual tribute. This occurred around the year 700, so there is a 600 year gap. 600 years! 600 years is an absurdly long time, the Periplus might as well not exist, you can't make connections over a 600 year gap.

After this you have Banaadir tradition stating the founding of the republic in Shingaani in 917 of the 12 leading families and the Chief Qadi ruling the town.

The next record after this is 300 years later in the last 13th century the first Sultan Fakhr ad-Diin. How did he become Sultan of Mogadishu? What happened with the Republic? Nobody knows. There are legends but they don't seem very reliable. We only know about Fakhr ad-Diin because he built a masjid which still stands. He seems to correspond with the legendary "Shirazi" dynasty, though this also seems to apply to the Republic era. Personally I think the "Shirazi" is a mythical placeholder for "the people who build Mogadishu"

After his dynasty according to various Banaadir traditions there are the Xalawaani dynasty and the Zowzaaan dynasties and then the Muzaffar. We only know more about the Muzaffar because the Abgaal also have stories about him, otherwise we wouldn't know anything at all.

Ibn Battuta visited Mogadishu in 1331, did he visit Fakhr ad-Diin's dynasty? A Xalawaani ruler? Was the ruler Zowzaan? Another, forgotten dynasty? Nobody knows!

After Ibn Battuta we have to wait 300 years before we have another historical record about Mogadishu, when we get the Abgaal story about the conquest of Mogadishu. We get name-checks of Xalawaani, no mention of Zowzaan, and we find out that Muzaffar was "from Yemen" that he "had guns" and that he was "friend of the Ajuuraan". That's all we know about him and that's the most we ever learn about him.

In the 300 year gap between Ibn Battuta and the conquest of the Abgaal a lot of things happened, but there are no available accounts of those things. Did the Ajuuraan take over? Maybe! Do we know for sure? No! Were there other dynasties? Maybe! What were their names? Nobody knows!

Glad to see this as I was beginning to doubt you on this topic.

"In the 300 year gap between Ibn Battuta and the conquest of the Abgaal a lot of things happened, but there are no available accounts of those things. Did the Ajuuraan take over? Maybe! Do we know for sure? No! Were there other dynasties? Maybe! What were their names? Nobody knows!"

The Hawiyye oral traditions clearly state the Muzzaffar and Ajuraan were "friends", not that one ruled over the other. Cassanelli says the Ajuraan ruled in the interior but the Yemenis controlled the export trade.

 

[NFD]

I've always heard from my family that Banadir was named after the Dir tribe the same way Dir Dawa was...

 

[Factz]

The sources are too scattered though, this is the problem. You make very firm and completely absolute pronouncements but the evidence is very thin, far too thin to draw any conclusions let alone absolute and total conclusions.

The sources are the unnamed source of both the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea and Ptolemy's Geographica (they clearly used the same, now lost source, probably a Greek translation of a Ximyarite guide) around the year 100.

The next source is the Islamic Caliphate records which state that the Islamic Caliphate conquered the Banaadir coast to secure its annual tribute, and record Mogadishu rebelling in the 9th century against the annual tribute. This occurred around the year 700, so there is a 600 year gap. 600 years! 600 years is an absurdly long time, the Periplus might as well not exist, you can't make connections over a 600 year gap.

After this you have Banaadir tradition stating the founding of the republic in Shingaani in 917 of the 12 leading families and the Chief Qadi ruling the town.

The next record after this is 300 years later in the last 13th century the first Sultan Fakhr ad-Diin. How did he become Sultan of Mogadishu? What happened with the Republic? Nobody knows. There are legends but they don't seem very reliable. We only know about Fakhr ad-Diin because he built a masjid which still stands. He seems to correspond with the legendary "Shirazi" dynasty, though this also seems to apply to the Republic era. Personally I think the "Shirazi" is a mythical placeholder for "the people who build Mogadishu"

After his dynasty according to various Banaadir traditions there are the Xalawaani dynasty and the Zowzaaan dynasties and then the Muzaffar. We only know more about the Muzaffar because the Abgaal also have stories about him, otherwise we wouldn't know anything at all.

Ibn Battuta visited Mogadishu in 1331, did he visit Fakhr ad-Diin's dynasty? A Xalawaani ruler? Was the ruler Zowzaan? Another, forgotten dynasty? Nobody knows!

After Ibn Battuta we have to wait 300 years before we have another historical record about Mogadishu, when we get the Abgaal story about the conquest of Mogadishu. We get name-checks of Xalawaani, no mention of Zowzaan, and we find out that Muzaffar was "from Yemen" that he "had guns" and that he was "friend of the Ajuuraan". That's all we know about him and that's the most we ever learn about him.

In the 300 year gap between Ibn Battuta and the conquest of the Abgaal a lot of things happened, but there are no available accounts of those things. Did the Ajuuraan take over? Maybe! Do we know for sure? No! Were there other dynasties? Maybe! What were their names? Nobody knows!

Here is the thing these medieval scholars mentioned Somali characteristics who inhabited the area. They said they were dark skin. They said the Benadir coast look like the people of Zeila, Berbera and Ras Hafun. They even confirmed Arab, Persian and Indian merchants who were living on the coast but they made it clear they were a minority with no political influence. So the theory of foreigners dominating or ruling the Benadir coast has been debunked and was always Somali since the ancient Barbara civilization period when proto-Somalis established city-states. These are the best evidence we have.

Benadiri traditions admit they came as refugees or as merchants and were accepted by the local native Somalis. You should read Michael Dumper and Bruce E. Stanley books who explains the origins of Benadiri and how they came to the Somali coast. The Somali clans that occupied the area and established city-states allowed them in.

At least you admit the Shirazi is a myth and at least you're not like that old senile fool called Grant who is intellectually dishonest and twists words to fit into his own narrative. He doesn't realize Ajuran had seasonal capitals which were Merca and Mareeg and last time I checked they were on the coast lol. The Ajuran controlled from Kismayo to Hobyo which included Mogadishu. They have a very famous maritime history.

I'll leave it here so he can read it of what territories Ajuran controlled.

 

[Suldaanka]

In this source it says that he got exiled to yemen and got support from the Hadhramaut region to take over warsengali sultanet. It doesn't say that he started the sultanet in Aden,Yemen, but got his manpower from Hadhramaut,Yemen. And in wikipedia it says that he was the 13 Garad of the Warsengali, not the founder

View attachment 65087

Here's the source: https://books.google.no/books?id=1u...MQBHWDCBCoQ6AEwDnoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerad_Ali_Dable

War adiga iiga saxsan. Waxaan uula jeeday they had connections or even had power over there. Thanks for that info sxb

 

[Yeeyi]

Glad to see this as I was beginning to doubt you on this topic.

"In the 300 year gap between Ibn Battuta and the conquest of the Abgaal a lot of things happened, but there are no available accounts of those things. Did the Ajuuraan take over? Maybe! Do we know for sure? No! Were there other dynasties? Maybe! What were their names? Nobody knows!"

The Hawiyye oral traditions clearly state the Muzzaffar and Ajuraan were "friends", not that one ruled over the other. Cassanelli says the Ajuraan ruled in the interior but the Yemenis controlled the export trade.

Your really are against ethnic somalis, why the hell would Hartis let Yemenis controll Xamar when we could have done it.
Why the f*ck would the Ajuuran let the Yemenis controll the export trade.
Yemen don't even have a city compareble to Mogadishu and yet they controlled Mogadishu.

Bro, just no

 

[James Dahl]

It was inhabited somali all over somalia then those bantu taken from ranzania as slave brought by arabs in south somali bantu where not native to whoke east africa until bantu expansion

Well this is the tricky question though, who is a Somali? Do you mean Somali speaking, pastoralist nomads who trace their lineage to Samaale or Daarood? They did not cross the Shabelle, let alone the Juba, until about 1000 years ago. If you mean the ancestors of Saabe people from between the two rivers, they were not pastoralist, they did not speak Somali, they do not have patrilinear clans and they trace to other ancestors. They are very close relatives of Somali people but were brought into the Somali nation by conquest in the 1400s, when the Ajuuraan conquered the south.

 

[Geedcad]

Well this is the tricky question though, who is a Somali? Do you mean Somali speaking, pastoralist nomads who trace their lineage to Samaale or Daarood? They did not cross the Shabelle, let alone the Juba, until about 1000 years ago. If you mean the ancestors of Saabe people from between the two rivers, they were not pastoralist, they did not speak Somali, they do not have patrilinear clans and they trace to other ancestors. They are very close relatives of Somali people but were brought into the Somali nation by conquest in the 1400s, when the Ajuuraan conquered the south.

Yes if your ancestor is not samaale you not somali btw saabe was brother of samaale so they are part of us and dararood is not arab lineage they are dir grandson of samaale they claim fake arab ancestor

 

[James Dahl]

Yes if your ancestor is not samaale you not somali btw saabe was brother of samaale so they are part of us and dararood is not arab lineage they are dir grandson of samaale they claim fake arab ancestor

Interesting, I have not heard of this hypothesis, which son of Dir?

 

[Geedcad]

Interesting, I have not heard of this hypothesis, which son of Dir?

Dir and irir are brother dir is the father of isaaqs daroods ciise ogadens samaros and irir is the father of hawiye

 

[James Dahl]

The only abtirsi I've seen that traces from Daarood to Samaale is one that goes:

Daarood
Ibrahiim
Maxamed
Samaale

This is of course an "arabized" abtirsi, where names have been substituted. Ibrahiim is of course Jabarti, and Samaale has not been Arabized but if it were it would be Cuthmaan.

Now if this arabized Abtirsi is a relic of a pre-arabized genealogy for Daarood, it is not Irir however, because the next generation is Maxamed. Irir in these genealogies is substituted for Cabdiraxman.

So it is one of the other Sagaalka Samaale who is "Maxamed" in the Arab fathers substitution system. IF this is a genuine artifact (which I believe it could be) and IF such a substitution exists.

 

[Geedcad]

The only abtirsi I've seen that traces from Daarood to Samaale is one that goes:

Daarood
Ibrahiim
Maxamed
Samaale

This is of course an "arabized" abtirsi, where names have been substituted. Ibrahiim is of course Jabarti, and Samaale has not been Arabized but if it were it would be Cuthmaan.

Now if this arabized Abtirsi is a relic of a pre-arabized genealogy for Daarood, it is not Irir however, because the next generation is Maxamed. Irir in these genealogies is substituted for Cabdiraxman.

So it is one of the other Sagaalka Samaale who is "Maxamed" in the Arab fathers substitution system. IF this is a genuine artifact (which I believe it could be) and IF such a substitution exists.

to Samaale:[1]

The eponymous ancestor of majority of Somalis today had 9 sons:

• Irir: Dir and Hawiye.[2][3]
• Gardhere :Garre, Gaalje'el,Degodi Massare, Issa and 'Awrmale[5][6]
• Mayle: Hawadle[5][6]
• Maqarre: Dabarre and Irrole[7]
• Yahabur: Hubeer[7]
• Gariife[7]
• Hammarre"Harmalle":[7] Ajuran
• Harire[7]
• Karur

Although Quranyow is part of the Garre confederacy, the sub-clan actually claims descent from Dir, son of Irir, son of Samaale.[8][9] This example does indeed strengthen the Somali saying: "Tol waa tolane", which means "clan is something joined together"[8][9] The same could be said about Gaaljecel, Degodi and Hawadle who have allied themselves to the Hawiye section of Irir in the borders of Somalia,[10][11] the Dabarre and Irrole of Maqarre and the Garre who have allied themselves to the Digil Rahanweyn confederacy and 'Awrmale to the Harti Darood section.[6][7][12]

The Rahanweyn (Digil and Mirifle) clan traces descent from a separate patriarch called Sab. Both Samaale and Sab are said to have descended from a forefather named "Hiil", whose is held to be the common patrilineal ancestor of all the Somali clans.[1][13]

According to traditions recorded in Shariif 'Aydaruus Shariif 'Ali's Bughyat al-amaal fii taariikh as-Soomaal (1955), the patriarch Samaale arrived in northern Somalia from Yemen during the 9th century and subsequently founded the eponymous Somali ethnic group.[1] According to the British anthropologist and Somali Studies veteran I.M. Lewis, the traditions of descent from noble Arab families related to the Prophet are most probably figurative expressions of the importance of Islam in Somali society.[14

 

[James Dahl]

See? No Maxamed Samaale, or at least not one in any of the available books or records. It could be any one of the available 8 other options, and that's assuming this is a genuine tradition.

 

[Geedcad]

See? No Maxamed Samaale, or at least not one in any of the available books or records. It could be any one of the available 8 other options, and that's assuming this is a genuine tradition.

Samaale name was not maxamed it is hill

 

[James Dahl]

Hiil in the arab name replacement is Axmed. Irir Samaale Hiil becomes Abdiraxmaan Cuthmaan Axmed.

Then this continues to Aqeel ibn Abu Talib in the arab fathers hypothesis.

Dir in this system is "Abu Bakr" and Hawiye is "Axmed".

This way you can translate arabized abtirsi. If someone traces to Abdiraxmaan Cuthmaan Axmed then shortly after to Aqeel Abutalib this is an Irir Samaale abtirsi that has been arabized.

There is one more generation after Hiil which is Abroone, which is replaced with Maxamed.

 

[Samaalic Era]

Hiil in the arab name replacement is Axmed. Irir Samaale Hiil becomes Abdiraxmaan Cuthmaan Axmed.

Then this continues to Aqeel ibn Abu Talib in the arab fathers hypothesis.

Dir in this system is "Abu Bakr" and Hawiye is "Axmed".

This way you can translate arabized abtirsi. If someone traces to Abdiraxmaan Cuthmaan Axmed then shortly after to Aqeel Abutalib this is an Irir Samaale abtirsi that has been arabized.

There is one more generation after Hiil which is Abroone, which is replaced with Maxamed.

The thing is, the arabized names are not true. Samaale and Irir lived before the Islamic Era. It could be that Hawiye and Irir were not brothers but distant relatives who hailed from the Irir clan and that before the Islamic Era, Somalis were divided into 9 clans who are the 9 sons of Samaale

 

[Guled111]

I tried learning something but after hearing the narrator talk. @Basra I might need some of your daawo

So Portugal ruled somalia for 250 years