What is your opinion on the Ottoman Empire/Caliphate

[Lahaine]

Till the 1700s they were a respected empire but after that they fell off instead of modernizing the sultans spent their times in the harem and didn't fight the wars they started sending the incompetent pashas to fight for them.

Not to mention how bat shit crazy they were during their final years genociding Armenians and Greeks and discriminating against all non-turks whether they were Muslim or not.

 

[Idilinaa]

So I see you are supportive of the ottman empire.

Lets turn the angles.


If hostile country to
Somalia, like the Ethiopia would take over somalia, annex Somalia, impose religious tax (Christian jizya), convert people by force, enslave Somalis in mass or kill 1, 5 million Somalis. You wouldn't like that.

I wouldn't say i am supportive, i am just explaining what i know.

Muslims pay Zakat Tax , non-Muslims are exempted from this thats why they pay the Jizya tax.

Forced conversions was not really a state policy by the Ottomans:

The Ottomans generally did not have a policy of forced mass conversion to Islam. Instead, they employed a system known as the millet system, which allowed religious communities (Christians, Jews, and others) a degree of autonomy under their religious leaders in exchange for loyalty and the payment of taxes. Non-Muslims were classified as dhimmi, a protected status that allowed them to practice their religion but required them to pay a special tax called the jizya.

There is a reason why Eritreans Djibouti and somalis oppose Ethiopias history.


Now imagine the ottoman/Mongol empire did all of these mentioned things to the people of the middle east Africa Asia and southern Europe.

1, 5 million Armenians died, Coptic Christians died, Maronis in Lebanon were starved, Shias were persecuted in Syria Lebanon and Iraq, Alevites in Turkey, and the many black slaves.


And u still believe black people didn't make
A large number of the enslaved peoplee in the middle east, then wonder why there
Are millions of
Black people in Saudi, Iraq, Pakistan, 1000s in Syria Pali Turkey Iran.


If u think the arab and ottman slave trade were not racially based why were black slaves on the bottom castraded or raped why were eastern European slaves becaming rulers in ottman empire


Why did Iraq had 100.000s of
Black slaves in the 10th century.

Why were African soldiers over represented during the Iberian-magreb war?

Why do middle eastern countries
Still call black people as Zanj, discriminating afro arabs and why are they not recognized as ethnic
Minorities

Sounds like your beliefs about the Ottomans are fixed, since you ignore the links i gave you. And keep on repeating yourself.

 

[EritreanPost_]

I wouldn't say i am supportive, i am just explaining what i know.

Muslims pay Zakat Tax , non-Muslims are exempted from this thats why they pay the Jizya tax.

Forced conversions was not really a state policy by the Ottomans:







Sounds like your beliefs about the Ottomans are fixed, since you ignore the links i gave you. And kept repeating yourself.

My guy, you give me Turkish state affiliated news like TRT. Thnx I reject.

Go study about the ottoman empire, the Turkish-arab slave trade, the byzantine empire, Kurdistan, maroni genocide, and the forced conversion, yes they were state sanctioned

Great Famine of Mount Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Armenian genocide - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Ottoman persecution of Alevis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Idilinaa]

My guy, you give me Turkish state affiliated news like TRT. Thnx I reject.

Go study about the ottoman empire, the Turkish-arab slave trade, the byzantine empire, Kurdistan, maroni genocide, and the forced conversion, yes they were state sanctioned

Its an article that summarizes an academic book, and its not written by Turkish propagandist, its written by a Black academic.

The Black Eunuchs of the Ottoman Empire: Networks of Power in the Court of the Sultan (Library of Ottoman Studies)​

 

[Vacelere]

My guy, you give me Turkish state affiliated news like TRT. Thnx I reject.

Go study about the ottoman empire, the Turkish-arab slave trade, the byzantine empire, Kurdistan, maroni genocide, and the forced conversion, yes they were state sanctioned

Great Famine of Mount Lebanon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Armenian genocide - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Ottoman persecution of Alevis - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I don't deny the Armenian genocide and I will search more about the Lebanon famine.

But about the shittes of Anatolia they imposed a danger to the Ottoman Empire because during the mediaeval times the people loyalty was toward religion more than nationalist as you know well.

Shia in the Ottoman Empire especially the harufiyah which were an weird abomination between shiasm and Sufism which believe their leader fazl Allah to be Allah SWT.

This dangerous heretical belief punishment is death not only in the Ottoman Empire but throughout the Islamic world.

An a good example is when hazret Ali Ra burned the people who claimed him as Allah.

What I mean shia in Anatolia were either people with dangerous believes like the harufiyah or pro savavids.

I'm not saying massacring them was right but deporting them was a logical thing

 

[World]

I disagree walal.

The ottoman empire was a colonial empire. Cultural coexistance was the last thing the ottoman empire was known for.

Did u know that ottman empire has
conducted a genocide on 1, 5 million Armenians (the natives of east Turkey), transformed hagia Sophia church, imposed Jizya on
Zorostians, Christians and jews, persecuted Kurds, starved 100.000s of Maroni Lebanese Christians to death, persecuted Shia Muslims, enslaved and castrated black slaves (Zenji)

Did u know how many Shia and Christian Lebanese Syrians and Palis fled the ottoman empire because of the persecution.

Did u know that ottmans originally came
from Mogolia and invaded most of lands they captured

The largest Jewish city in the world for 500 years was under the Ottomans called Salonica. The Jews in this city fled genocide from Iberia during Reconquista and the Ottomans sent ships to save them. Less than 40 years after Ottomans lost the city in the 20th century, the Jews in this city faced genocide by the Nazis.

As for the Shia/Kurds, it’s not that simple. The Ottomans were not really Sunni Muslims but originally practiced a traditional Turkish blend of Islam called Alevism/Proto-Alevism. Another Turkish empire called the Safavids in Persia were from the same Turkish tribe as the Ottomans, and they were fighting for control of the nomadic Turks in Eastern Anatolia. This led to civil war between them, in which the Safavids converted into Shi’ism and the Ottomans into Sunnism to solidify their rule. The Turks in Eastern Anatolia migrated to Persia, whilst the Ottomans moved the Sunni Kurds to Eastern Anatolia to secure their border with the Safavids.

As for Jizya, has there ever existed an empire or kingdom in the world that didn’t tax farmers? Because that’s all Jizya really is. Farmers whether they were in China, or Ottoman Empire, or Europe, were all taxed for their agricultural surplus. That’s how civilisation and urbanisation is formed. Unless those farmers paying Jizya were burdened financially more than farmers in other parts of the world, then that’s not evidence they were persecuted.

These non-Muslim communities existed for 500 years under Ottoman Empire, what happened in Latin America under Christian Empires? Did the religion and language of the indigenous population survive? Or what about the Muslim population in the Balkans? The Muslim and Jewish population in the Iberian Peninsula?

The tragedies of Armenians and Lebanese Maronites is definitely a fault of the Ottomans however. The late 19th-20th century was riddled with genocide and massacres due to nationalism and formation of modern nation states, and these communities were victims
to that. Did you know that most of France didn’t speak French in the 20th century? The state ethnically cleansed these indigenous populations and forced French on them.

 

[EritreanPost_]

The largest Jewish city in the world for 500 years was under the Ottomans called Salonica. The Jews in this city fled genocide from Iberia during Reconquista and the Ottomans sent ships to save them. Less than 40 years after Ottomans lost the city in the 20th century, the Jews in this city faced genocide by the Nazis.

As for the Shia/Kurds, it’s not that simple. The Ottomans were not really Sunni Muslims but originally practiced a traditional Turkish blend of Islam called Alevism/Proto-Alevism. Another Turkish empire called the Safavids in Persia were from the same Turkish tribe as the Ottomans, and they were fighting for control of the nomadic Turks in Eastern Anatolia. This led to civil war between them, in which the Safavids converted into Shi’ism and the Ottomans into Sunnism to solidify their rule. The Turks in Eastern Anatolia migrated to Persia, whilst the Ottomans moved the Sunni Kurds to Eastern Anatolia to secure their border with the Safavids.

As for Jizya, has there ever existed an empire or kingdom in the world that didn’t tax farmers? Because that’s all Jizya really is. Farmers whether they were in China, or Ottoman Empire, or Europe, were all taxed for their agricultural surplus. That’s how civilisation and urbanisation is formed. Unless those farmers paying Jizya were burdened financially more than farmers in other parts of the world, then that’s not evidence they were persecuted.

These non-Muslim communities existed for 500 years under Ottoman Empire, what happened in Latin America under Christian Empires? Did the religion and language of the indigenous population survive? Or what about the Muslim population in the Balkans? The Muslim and Jewish population in Iberia?

The tragedies of Armenians and Lebanese Maronites is definitely a fault of the Ottomans however.

Thank u for your kind answer. I agree with u on many points.

Just look at the thread, u will see I said every big colonial empire did those things.

That's why I said both British and ottoman empire were colonial and used religion as a pretext for political power. With regards of Jizya I have friends whose ancestors had to
Pay Jiz in Syria and Egypt, I have also Lebanese friends. I can tell u about the demographic change during the Ottman era from them.

History is always brutal. That's why I pointed out that every big empire
did that. The British and Spanish too. Thanks for letting me know Walal.

 

[World]

I don't deny the Armenian genocide and I will search more about the Lebanon famine.

But about the shittes of Anatolia they imposed a danger to the Ottoman Empire because during the mediaeval times the people loyalty was toward religion more than nationalist as you know well.

Shia in the Ottoman Empire especially the harufiyah which were an weird abomination between shiasm and Sufism which believe their leader fazl Allah to be Allah SWT.

This dangerous heretical belief punishment is death not only in the Ottoman Empire but throughout the Islamic world.

An a good example is when hazret Ali Ra burned the people who claimed him as Allah.

What I mean shia in Anatolia were either people with dangerous believes like the harufiyah or pro savavids.

I'm not saying massacring them was right but deporting them was a logical thing

The “Shia” in Anatolia were actually nomadic Turkish tribes, and the early Ottomans actually had shared their beliefs before the conflict with the Safavids.

The Ottomans only became Sunni because they didn’t have any more authority over them than the Safavids, who were also Turks with similar beliefs.

It was a political civil war between Turks, not about Islam. The Ottomans wouldn’t have any problem with them if the Safavids were Persian and not Turkish for example.

 

[World]

Thank u for your kind answer. I agree with u on many points.

Just look at the thread, u will see I said every big colonial empire did those things.

That's why I said both British and ottoman empire were colonial and used religion as a pretext for political power. With regards of Jizya I have friends whose ancestors had to
Pay Jiz in Syria and Egypt, I have also Lebanese friends. I can tell u about the demographic change during the Ottman era from them.

History is always brutal. That's why I pointed out that every big empire
did that. The British and Spanish too. Thanks for letting me know Walal.

I don’t understand how jizya can be viewed as colonial, it implies that ottomans were abnormal in taxing farmers compared to every other civilisation across the world. Can u explain the logic? If farmers are paying 2 % tax on their income under jizya, and every other kingdom/empire at the time is taxing 2 % on the income of farmers, then what’s colonial about it? What difference does that make to the farmer who has to pay 2 % tax on income either way whether under the ottomans, chinese, europeans?

 

[EritreanPost_]

I don’t understand how jizya can be viewed as colonial, it implies that ottomans were abnormal in taxing farmers compared to every other civilisation across the world. Can u explain the logic? If farmers are paying 2 % tax on their income under jizya, and every other kingdom/empire at the time is taxing 2 % on the income of farmers, then what’s colonial about it? What difference does that make to the farmer who has to pay 2 % tax on income either way whether under the ottomans, chinese, europeans?

The ottoman expansion from Mongolia to th middle east and the conquests and eradication of the locals, were what I described as colonial.

Again many people in those mentioned places, which were conquered by the Ottomans were forced to pay Jizya, or leave the ottoman empire or die as a murtard
Kaf (killed) (that's also ethnic cleansing/persecution of people of
Certain backgroung (middle eastern Christians, Jews,)

And chattel slavery of black African people

 

[Vacelere]

The ottoman expansion from Mongolia to th middle east and the conquests and eradication of the locals, were what I described as colonial.

Again many people in those mentioned places, which were conquered by the Ottomans were forced to pay Jizya, or leave the ottoman empire or die as a murtard
Kaf (killed) (that's also ethnic cleansing/persecution of people of
Certain backgroung (middle eastern Christians, Jews,)

And chattel slavery of black African people

But the ottomans didn't expand from Mongolia to middle east as conqueror.

The ottomans in reality ran from the Mongols in central Asia to Anatolia and were given land my sultan alaudin kaykabad.

Btw Greeks lived in the Anatolia and didnt left until the establishment of modern state of turkey, then turkey and Greece both kicked out the other from his land just like India and Pakistan.

Jews were welcomed in the Ottoman Empire heck sultan beyazid send one of his admirals to save Jews of Spain during the Spanish inquisition.

 

[EritreanPost_]

But the ottomans didn't expand from Mongolia to middle east as conqueror.

The ottomans in reality ran from the Mongols in central Asia to Anatolia and were given land my sultan alaudin kaykabad.

Btw Greeks lived in the Anatolia and didnt left until the establishment of modern state of turkey, then turkey and Greece both kicked out the other from his land just like India and Pakistan.

Jews were welcomed in the Ottoman Empire heck sultan beyazid send one of his admirals to save Jews of Spain during the Spanish inquisition.

View attachment 338918

The jews who were wealthy migrated from Spain to ottman empire and if they had sufficient money to pay Jizya, they were protected. But the local Christian Jewish Zoroastrian Yezidi population of the middle
East, who couldn't pay Jizya were given 3 option. Pay Jizya, convert, die
as ‘K*fr’ (capital punishment) or leave the ummah.

That's why Copts in Egypt became a minority from 12th to now although Egypt was the first Christian country in Africa until 7-10th

I am as anti western imperialism
and anti Ethiopian as it gets but I cannot say the ottoman and ummayds were without a sin. Empires are 9/10 colonial and they use religion and culture for political power money and oppression. Same 4 the roman empire, catholic church, British empire.

 

[Haragwaafi]

In the early they were good but later they became a corrupt deviant empire which led to their downfall

 

[Haragwaafi]

The “Shia” in Anatolia were actually nomadic Turkish tribes, and the early Ottomans actually had shared their beliefs before the conflict with the Safavids.

The Ottomans only became Sunni because they didn’t have any more authority over them than the Safavids, who were also Turks with similar beliefs.

It was a political civil war between Turks, not about Islam. The Ottomans wouldn’t have any problem with them if the Safavids were Persian and not Turkish for example.

Ottomans were sunni since the selajuks and the war with Safavids was a religious war as the safavids were the most radical extremist shia group to ever emerge from the region after the defeat of the Qarmeta