Were Somalis Pagans before Islam or did we have a history of following other Abrahamic faiths?

[Grant]

Yes exactly. Arabs geographers had some kind of awareness of the differences between African people's and had different stereotypes (both positive and negative) about them. For example ibn Khaldun wrote extremely racist stuff against the Zanj but had a very neutral or even positive view of the Muslim rulers of Mali Empire. In his mind Zanj was a specific type of people within Africa and didn't mean all black people and he understood the difference just like he understood how Mediterranean Europeans were different from Slavs, Germans etc.
Even within the Zanj there was a distinction between the Muslim swahilis who enjoyed a high social status and the non Muslims from the interior

The Northern Zanj, Demadim, Yamyam, Yam/Yamjam, Habasha/Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadam – The Horn of Africa between the Ninth and Fifteenth Centuries | History in Africa | Cambridge Core

The Northern Zanj, Demadim, Yamyam, Yam/Yamjam, Habasha/Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadam – The Horn of Africa between the Ninth and Fifteenth Centuries - Volume 46

www.cambridge.org

"This article argues that historians will have a new understanding of northeast and east Africa if they recall the medieval meaning of the terms Zanj and Ahabish, or Habasha. Before the fifteenth century the term Zanj included the diverse populations of northeast Africa, so should not be exclusive of the populations of coastal east Africa. Likewise, Habasha or Ahabish was not confined to the peoples of the northern Horn but included the diverse peoples of coastal east Africa. Uncovering older meanings of Zanj and Ahabish helps to identify elusive groups of ancient northeast Africans referred to as northern Zanj, Zanj-Ahabish, Ahabish, and Damadim. For identification, this article presents three types of historical data overlooked in the sources. The first consists of the interchangeable names northern Zanj, Damadim, Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadim to recast the term Zanj and identify the Damadim or Yamyam. The second is the broadly inclusive meaning before the fifteenth century of the term Habasha. The third is the reported eloquence in their Buttaa ceremony of the northern Zanj, and the institutional setting of the Buttaa within the Oromo Gadaa system."

 

[Apollo]

There is a difference between what a word typically means and the misuse of a word by a minority of speakers.

The term Zanj was applied in its common usage to either Southeast Africa as a region (today's Swahili speaking areas) or to describe 'blacks' present in the Middle East as the majority of them had roots from Southeast Africa.

It was almost never used to describe Northeastern Africa. Terms like Nubia, the Sudan, Abyssinia, or Barbara were used.

This @Grant guy really loves to twist and lie about history.

 

[Grant]

There is a difference between what a word typically means and the misuse of a word by a minority of speakers.

The term Zanj was applied in its common usage to either Southeast Africa as a region (today's Swahili speaking areas) or to describe 'blacks' present in the Middle East as the majority of them had roots from Southeast Africa.

It was almost never used to describe Northeastern Africa. Terms like Nubia, the Sudan, Abyssinia, or Barbara were used.

This @Grant guy really loves to twist and lie about history.

Aren't academic sources the pits!

 

[Apollo]

Aren't academic sources the pits!

Your source is based on a handful times it was misused. The vast majority of cases when Arabs mentioned what are now Ethiopians they used the Arabic form of Abyssinian.

Even in the Quran and hadiths, all references to Ethiopians uses Abyssinian.

What is your obsession with Bantus? All your engagement in the culture and history section the past year have only been about Bantus. I am now pretty sure you are married to a Somali Bantu woman and have this obsession to ''defender their honor'' online.

 

[Grant]

Your source is based on a handful times it was misused. The vast majority of cases when Arabs mentioned what are now Ethiopians they used the Arabic form of Abyssinian.

Even in the Quran and hadiths, all references to Ethiopians uses Abyssinian.

What is your obsession with Bantus? All your engagement in the culture and history section the past year have only been about Bantus. I am now pretty sure you are married to a Somali Bantu woman and have this obsession to ''defender their honor'' online.

You didn't even read the article.

 

[Apollo]

You didn't even read the article.

History is not an exact science. You can find articles to argue any kind of position/view. I am not going to delve in your fringe articles. The mainstream meaning of Zanj is well-known.

 

[Grant]

This what I was trying to steer you towards religion topic. Wait for another opportunity to present you claims about Baantu presence in ancient SomaliaItaliana/NFD



What was the religion of preIslamic zanj



I dont see why Yibir/Tumaa/Madhibaan Muslims would know more about the jaahiliya era lifestyle of Somalis than other somaali clans. I hope you are right though. Maybe the Yibir preserved knowledge about their Waaqist/Jewish/Masiixi past

As much as I would want to know about Waaqism, I hope they Qoti and Rendille convert. Part of the reason I dont care to follow @Apollo in his obsessive attempts to prove Baantu absensce from ancient Somalia Italiaana, Kenya/Tanzania regions is because the Baantu speakers of SomaliItaliana are Muslims. Their identity/clulture the identical/similar to the SomaaliMuslims unlike the cushitic speaking Somaloid/Oromoid Waaqists tribes/nations



What was the religion of Azanian region whether they were cushitic, Khoekhoe, bantoid, or hadza speakers

Apollo is a Bantu-obsessed hyper-patriot. If something doesn't fit with his preconceived opinion, ipso facto, it is wrong.

I don't find a lot on early Bantu religion and I can't speak to the others. This is 1937 and written by a Christian missionary.. What he describes sounds like what we would call pagan.

THE MINISTRY IN BANTU RELIGION​

NEWELL S. BOOTH PH.D.
First published: July 1937

https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1758-6631.1937.tb04137.x

-----------------------------------------------------

Try searching Cushitic and Khoisan religion. Hadza, Sandawe......

 

[Apollo]

Apollo is a Bantu-obsessed hyper-patriot. If something doesn't fit with his preconceived opinion, ipso facto, it is wrong.

I don't find a lot on early Bantu religion and I can't speak to the others. This is 1937 and written by a Christian missionary.. What he describes sounds like what we would call pagan.

Says the white boomer with a Jarerweyne mail order bride who is actually obsessed with Bantus.

I talk primarily about Afro-Asiatic peoples, Cushitic specific genetics, Somali clan genetics, and Northeast African history in this sub-section.

All your posts in this section, like literally over 90% of them are on the topic of Bantus. Less than 15% in my case and nearly every time it is because of you mentioning them and me being forced to debunk your garbage. I don't find Bantus interesting whatsoever.

 

[Som]

The Northern Zanj, Demadim, Yamyam, Yam/Yamjam, Habasha/Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadam – The Horn of Africa between the Ninth and Fifteenth Centuries | History in Africa | Cambridge Core

The Northern Zanj, Demadim, Yamyam, Yam/Yamjam, Habasha/Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadam – The Horn of Africa between the Ninth and Fifteenth Centuries - Volume 46

www.cambridge.org

"This article argues that historians will have a new understanding of northeast and east Africa if they recall the medieval meaning of the terms Zanj and Ahabish, or Habasha. Before the fifteenth century the term Zanj included the diverse populations of northeast Africa, so should not be exclusive of the populations of coastal east Africa. Likewise, Habasha or Ahabish was not confined to the peoples of the northern Horn but included the diverse peoples of coastal east Africa. Uncovering older meanings of Zanj and Ahabish helps to identify elusive groups of ancient northeast Africans referred to as northern Zanj, Zanj-Ahabish, Ahabish, and Damadim. For identification, this article presents three types of historical data overlooked in the sources. The first consists of the interchangeable names northern Zanj, Damadim, Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadim to recast the term Zanj and identify the Damadim or Yamyam. The second is the broadly inclusive meaning before the fifteenth century of the term Habasha. The third is the reported eloquence in their Buttaa ceremony of the northern Zanj, and the institutional setting of the Buttaa within the Oromo Gadaa system."

We have medieval sources on Somalia that are very clear in distinguishing barbar, habasha and zanj. Some Arab writers were more accurate than others though

 

[Grant]

We have medieval sources on Somalia that are very clear in distinguishing barbar, habasha and zanj. Some Arab writers were more accurate than others though

My academic article has 391 references. How many you got?

"Towards a Definition of the Term Zanj"
11pages

Tolmacheva, Marina A. Date 1986

on JSTOR

JSTOR is a digital library of academic journals, books, and primary sources.

www.aluka.org

Go here:

http://psimg.jstor.org/fsi/img/pdf/t0/10.5555/al.ch.document.sip200045_final.pdf

Tolmacheva also covers all the early Arab authors. This is just a taste:

""For the most part, Barbara has been accepted to denote the pre-Somali Cushiticspeaking population of the Horn of Africa. Descriptions of the coast customarily name Bilad al-Habasha, then - moving eastward (according to the Ptolemaic geographic conception) - Bilad al-Barbara, then Bilad al-Zanj and Sofala. AlMas'udi names the Barbara as a group of Zanj.1 The town of Barbara, despite its seemingly obvious name, is sometimes placed in the land of alHabasha, sometimes in the land of Zanj. For example, Abu 'l-Fida' (14th century, drawing on Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi) speaks of Barbara min bilhd al-Zanj.12 Yaqut (1220s), even more confusingly, quotes 'Barbara of al-Zanj' and calls Merka 'a city on Zanjibar belonging to the black Barbara.' He also talks about the mainland of al-Barbar alongside the Sea of Zanj and places Mogadishu, whose population the later authors call Barbara, in the land of Zanj.13 The Barbara may be defined from these data as a negroid population (they are 'black', in contrast to the Berbers), as neighbours to the Zanj (and to al-Habasha as well), and also as a minor group in comparison to both. (They may be a part of the Zanj, but the Zanj are not a part of the Barbara.)"

"It has never been satisfactorily explained why the Persian Zang is thought to have preceded the Arabic use of the word, nor why its geographic scope was focused on Ethiopia. A likely explanation may lie in the involvement of late Sassanid Persia in the Red Sea area and inthe slave markets of Eritrea. It should be noted that, on the evidence of tenth-certury and later sources, the Persians, as did the Arabs, clearly distinguished between 'Abyssinians' proper and the other Africans."

"It is probably a futile exercise to attempt to establish exactly when the name Zanj first became attached to Bantu-speakers: the post-Islamic origin of our sources makes the Bantu identification chronologically consistent. If, however, we assume a continuity between the Arabic Zanj and the Greek Azania, the linguistic aspect becomes less definite. One must further admit that such a continuity, while attractively bridging the points in coastal history from the first-second to the eighth-ninth centuries AD, might eliminate any excuse for the wanderings of the Persian Zang. Some needed answers may be provided by investigating the chronology of respective usage of Zang and Zanj in non-geographical sources. It may be hoped that analysis of early poetry may throw light on the obscure ways of terminological transformation as a result of which the word Zanj received a new life in the Arabic language as an ethnonym of varied, multi-level content. Its meaning changed, grew and expanded constantly as the contacts of the Arab world with eastern Africa developed a previously unknown diversity and complexity. From an ethnic/racial designation it went on to acquire religious cultural and linguistic nuances none of which may have been part of its original meaning."

 

[citrus_samurai]

Jarerweyne mail order bride

Wait what?

 

[Apollo]

Wait what?

He is some very old white guy who spent a lot of time in the Jubba area during the cold war period. It wouldn't surprise me one bit that he has some familial ties to Somali Bantus. All he posts about in this sub-forum is about them, just click on his post history and notice the obvious pattern.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

My academic article has 391 references. How many you got?

"Towards a Definition of the Term Zanj"
11pages

Tolmacheva, Marina A. Date 1986

on JSTOR

JSTOR is a digital library of academic journals, books, and primary sources.

www.aluka.org

Go here:

http://psimg.jstor.org/fsi/img/pdf/t0/10.5555/al.ch.document.sip200045_final.pdf

Tolmacheva also covers all the early Arab authors. This is just a taste:

""For the most part, Barbara has been accepted to denote the pre-Somali Cushiticspeaking population of the Horn of Africa. Descriptions of the coast customarily name Bilad al-Habasha, then - moving eastward (according to the Ptolemaic geographic conception) - Bilad al-Barbara, then Bilad al-Zanj and Sofala. AlMas'udi names the Barbara as a group of Zanj.1 The town of Barbara, despite its seemingly obvious name, is sometimes placed in the land of alHabasha, sometimes in the land of Zanj. For example, Abu 'l-Fida' (14th century, drawing on Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi) speaks of Barbara min bilhd al-Zanj.12 Yaqut (1220s), even more confusingly, quotes 'Barbara of al-Zanj' and calls Merka 'a city on Zanjibar belonging to the black Barbara.' He also talks about the mainland of al-Barbar alongside the Sea of Zanj and places Mogadishu, whose population the later authors call Barbara, in the land of Zanj.13 The Barbara may be defined from these data as a negroid population (they are 'black', in contrast to the Berbers), as neighbours to the Zanj (and to al-Habasha as well), and also as a minor group in comparison to both. (They may be a part of the Zanj, but the Zanj are not a part of the Barbara.)"

"It has never been satisfactorily explained why the Persian Zang is thought to have preceded the Arabic use of the word, nor why its geographic scope was focused on Ethiopia. A likely explanation may lie in the involvement of late Sassanid Persia in the Red Sea area and inthe slave markets of Eritrea. It should be noted that, on the evidence of tenth-certury and later sources, the Persians, as did the Arabs, clearly distinguished between 'Abyssinians' proper and the other Africans."

"It is probably a futile exercise to attempt to establish exactly when the name Zanj first became attached to Bantu-speakers: the post-Islamic origin of our sources makes the Bantu identification chronologically consistent. If, however, we assume a continuity between the Arabic Zanj and the Greek Azania, the linguistic aspect becomes less definite. One must further admit that such a continuity, while attractively bridging the points in coastal history from the first-second to the eighth-ninth centuries AD, might eliminate any excuse for the wanderings of the Persian Zang. Some needed answers may be provided by investigating the chronology of respective usage of Zang and Zanj in non-geographical sources. It may be hoped that analysis of early poetry may throw light on the obscure ways of terminological transformation as a result of which the word Zanj received a new life in the Arabic language as an ethnonym of varied, multi-level content. Its meaning changed, grew and expanded constantly as the contacts of the Arab world with eastern Africa developed a previously unknown diversity and complexity. From an ethnic/racial designation it went on to acquire religious cultural and linguistic nuances none of which may have been part of its original meaning."

This is nothing more than a post modern rendition of history. All those arab authors being cited are after the advent of islam yet the term habasha was used by the pagan arabs before islam. Even more astonishing is how they intentionally leave out all the islamic literature out there by scholars, historians etc that proves contrary to their claims. I see it as nothing more than cherry picking of sources so as to confirm their assumptions.

It would've been a better job to compare the sources that don't validate their claims vs the ones that do and determine which claims are the anomalies. Look at the article you posted before

The Northern Zanj, Demadim, Yamyam, Yam/Yamjam, Habasha/Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadam – The Horn of Africa between the Ninth and Fifteenth Centuries | History in Africa | Cambridge Core

The Northern Zanj, Demadim, Yamyam, Yam/Yamjam, Habasha/Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadam – The Horn of Africa between the Ninth and Fifteenth Centuries - Volume 46

www.cambridge.org

"This article argues that historians will have a new understanding of northeast and east Africa if they recall the medieval meaning of the terms Zanj and Ahabish, or Habasha. Before the fifteenth century the term Zanj included the diverse populations of northeast Africa, so should not be exclusive of the populations of coastal east Africa. Likewise, Habasha or Ahabish was not confined to the peoples of the northern Horn but included the diverse peoples of coastal east Africa. Uncovering older meanings of Zanj and Ahabish helps to identify elusive groups of ancient northeast Africans referred to as northern Zanj, Zanj-Ahabish, Ahabish, and Damadim. For identification, this article presents three types of historical data overlooked in the sources. The first consists of the interchangeable names northern Zanj, Damadim, Ahabish, Zanj-Ahabish, and Zanj ed-Damadim to recast the term Zanj and identify the Damadim or Yamyam. The second is the broadly inclusive meaning before the fifteenth century of the term Habasha. The third is the reported eloquence in their Buttaa ceremony of the northern Zanj, and the institutional setting of the Buttaa within the Oromo Gadaa system."

This is just baseless, a quick research into islamic literature will easily disprove this. The fact the pagan arabs of all people used the word habasha disproves any such claims. Even more damaging is that habasha is mentioned numerous times in hadith literature while there isn't a single mention of the word zanj. Since usage of the word habasha predates zanj it's impossible to claim that it was used in reference to denote those classified as habasha or that usage of the word habasha became normalised post 15th century. If anything it's that the word habasha was used in reference to the diverse populations of north east africa.

""For the most part, Barbara has been accepted to denote the pre-Somali Cushiticspeaking population of the Horn of Africa. Descriptions of the coast customarily name Bilad al-Habasha, then - moving eastward (according to the Ptolemaic geographic conception) - Bilad al-Barbara, then Bilad al-Zanj and Sofala

Notice that even though they concede the above facts no date, author is cited. Why ?

 

[Nilotic]

We have a white zoomer on here? I thought that Slavic dude was the most foreign person here.

 

[Shimbiris]

Bilad al-Zanj means the Swahili coast / Southeast Africa. There is ZERO controversy around this. It is not and never was a part of Northeast Africa. Northeast Africa = lands like al-Masr, Nubia, Ard al-Xabash and Bilad al-Barbar. The last one, according to Arab and generally Islamic world scholars, was the lands from around Saylac down to the Jubba which was, to quote Ibn Battuta, a land inhabited by dark-skinned, shafi'i Muslims who herd camels and sheep. Sound like any Bantus to you or straight-up like Somalis? Bilad al-Zanj was the land further south of this on the coast of Kenya and beyond. Any "source" that conflicts with this common knowledge is written by someone who doesn't understand the local history and demographics or who is using the occasional Islamic world source where they just generalize many black folks as "Zanji" since many slaves in the Middle-East came from Bilad al-Zanj.

 

[Som]

My academic article has 391 references. How many you got?

"Towards a Definition of the Term Zanj"
11pages

Tolmacheva, Marina A. Date 1986

on JSTOR

JSTOR is a digital library of academic journals, books, and primary sources.

www.aluka.org

Go here:

http://psimg.jstor.org/fsi/img/pdf/t0/10.5555/al.ch.document.sip200045_final.pdf

Tolmacheva also covers all the early Arab authors. This is just a taste:

""For the most part, Barbara has been accepted to denote the pre-Somali Cushiticspeaking population of the Horn of Africa. Descriptions of the coast customarily name Bilad al-Habasha, then - moving eastward (according to the Ptolemaic geographic conception) - Bilad al-Barbara, then Bilad al-Zanj and Sofala. AlMas'udi names the Barbara as a group of Zanj.1 The town of Barbara, despite its seemingly obvious name, is sometimes placed in the land of alHabasha, sometimes in the land of Zanj. For example, Abu 'l-Fida' (14th century, drawing on Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi) speaks of Barbara min bilhd al-Zanj.12 Yaqut (1220s), even more confusingly, quotes 'Barbara of al-Zanj' and calls Merka 'a city on Zanjibar belonging to the black Barbara.' He also talks about the mainland of al-Barbar alongside the Sea of Zanj and places Mogadishu, whose population the later authors call Barbara, in the land of Zanj.13 The Barbara may be defined from these data as a negroid population (they are 'black', in contrast to the Berbers), as neighbours to the Zanj (and to al-Habasha as well), and also as a minor group in comparison to both. (They may be a part of the Zanj, but the Zanj are not a part of the Barbara.)"

"It has never been satisfactorily explained why the Persian Zang is thought to have preceded the Arabic use of the word, nor why its geographic scope was focused on Ethiopia. A likely explanation may lie in the involvement of late Sassanid Persia in the Red Sea area and inthe slave markets of Eritrea. It should be noted that, on the evidence of tenth-certury and later sources, the Persians, as did the Arabs, clearly distinguished between 'Abyssinians' proper and the other Africans."

"It is probably a futile exercise to attempt to establish exactly when the name Zanj first became attached to Bantu-speakers: the post-Islamic origin of our sources makes the Bantu identification chronologically consistent. If, however, we assume a continuity between the Arabic Zanj and the Greek Azania, the linguistic aspect becomes less definite. One must further admit that such a continuity, while attractively bridging the points in coastal history from the first-second to the eighth-ninth centuries AD, might eliminate any excuse for the wanderings of the Persian Zang. Some needed answers may be provided by investigating the chronology of respective usage of Zang and Zanj in non-geographical sources. It may be hoped that analysis of early poetry may throw light on the obscure ways of terminological transformation as a result of which the word Zanj received a new life in the Arabic language as an ethnonym of varied, multi-level content. Its meaning changed, grew and expanded constantly as the contacts of the Arab world with eastern Africa developed a previously unknown diversity and complexity. From an ethnic/racial designation it went on to acquire religious cultural and linguistic nuances none of which may have been part of its original meaning."

Interesting. What's the point though. Are you saying Arabs described barbar aka somalis as Zanj? Do you have the full quote in Arabic from Yaqut? I believe it says just black Berbers

 

[Grant]

This is nothing more than a post modern rendition of history. All those arab authors being cited are after the advent of islam yet the term habasha was used by the pagan arabs before islam. Even more astonishing is how they intentionally leave out all the islamic literature out there by scholars, historians etc that proves contrary to their claims. I see it as nothing more than cherry picking of sources so as to confirm their assumptions.

It would've been a better job to compare the sources that don't validate their claims vs the ones that do and determine which claims are the anomalies. Look at the article you posted before



This is just baseless, a quick research into islamic literature will easily disprove this. The fact the pagan arabs of all people used the word habasha disproves any such claims. Even more damaging is that habasha is mentioned numerous times in hadith literature while there isn't a single mention of the word zanj. Since usage of the word habasha predates zanj it's impossible to claim that it was used in reference to denote those classified as habasha or that usage of the word habasha became normalised post 15th century. If anything it's that the word habasha was used in reference to the diverse populations of north east africa.




Notice that even though they concede the above facts no date, author is cited. Why ?

Bilad al-Zanj means the Swahili coast / Southeast Africa. There is ZERO controversy around this. It is not and never was a part of Northeast Africa. Northeast Africa = lands like al-Masr, Nubia, Ard al-Xabash and Bilad al-Barbar. The last one, according to Arab and generally Islamic world scholars, was the lands from around Saylac down to the Jubba which was, to quote Ibn Battuta, a land inhabited by dark-skinned, shafi'i Muslims who herd camels and sheep. Sound like any Bantus to you or straight-up like Somalis? Bilad al-Zanj was the land further south of this on the coast of Kenya and beyond. Any "source" that conflicts with this common knowledge is written by someone who doesn't understand the local history and demographics or who is using the occasional Islamic world source where they just generalize many black folks as "Zanji" since many slaves in the Middle-East came from Bilad al-Zanj.

SOM
Interesting. What's the point though. Are you saying Arabs described barbar aka somalis as Zanj? Do you have the full quote in Arabic from Yaqut? I believe it says just black Berbers

-------------------------------------------------

You guys are using post-1500 AD definitions, and you missed the main point of both articles-that Arab usage of the terminology changed over time. The articles quote all the major authors for the pre-1500 period. If you don't believe the scholars, look the authors up for yourselves.
You can start here, but I am not going to do your research for you and again get accused of cherry picking.

" AlMas'udi names the Barbara as a group of Zanj.1 The town of Barbara, despite its seemingly obvious name, is sometimes placed in the land of alHabasha, sometimes in the land of Zanj. For example, Abu 'l-Fida' (14th century, drawing on Ibn Sa'id al-Maghribi) speaks of Barbara min bilhd al-Zanj.12 Yaqut (1220s), even more confusingly, quotes 'Barbara of al-Zanj' and calls Merka 'a city on Zanjibar belonging to the black Barbara.' He also talks about the mainland of al-Barbar alongside the Sea of Zanj and places Mogadishu, whose population the later authors call Barbara, in the land of Zanj.13 The Barbara may be defined from these data as a negroid population (they are 'black', in contrast to the Berbers), as neighbours to the Zanj (and to al-Habasha as well), and also as a minor group in comparison to both."

 

[Apollo]

Bilad al-Zanj means the Swahili coast / Southeast Africa. There is ZERO controversy around this. It is not and never was a part of Northeast Africa. Northeast Africa = lands like al-Masr, Nubia, Ard al-Xabash and Bilad al-Barbar. The last one, according to Arab and generally Islamic world scholars, was the lands from around Saylac down to the Jubba which was, to quote Ibn Battuta, a land inhabited by dark-skinned, shafi'i Muslims who herd camels and sheep. Sound like any Bantus to you or straight-up like Somalis? Bilad al-Zanj was the land further south of this on the coast of Kenya and beyond. Any "source" that conflicts with this common knowledge is written by someone who doesn't understand the local history and demographics or who is using the occasional Islamic world source where they just generalize many black folks as "Zanji" since many slaves in the Middle-East came from Bilad al-Zanj.

This guy is an actual Arabic speaker. /end of discussion.

 

[Grant]

This guy is an actual Arabic speaker. /end of discussion.

Proof ?

Here is al Masudi, died 956 AD

Mūrūj adh-dhahab wa-ma'ādin al-jawāhir

'When the children of Noah parted from one another, the children of Kush (wūld Kūsh) went westwards, beyond the Nile of Egypt, then divided themselves: a part of them took the way towards the south [scattering] east and [p. 128] west: they are the Nūba, the Buja and the Zanj. The other part proceeded towards the west: they are many branches such as the Zaghāwa, the Kānim, Marka, Kawkaw, Ghāna<ref>See: al-Hamdānī, note (2).</ref> and other tribes of Blacks and the Damādin.

"Then those who went south divided themselves into [various] branches such as the Zanj of al-Mukayr, al-Mushkar, Barbara and other Zanj tribes; we have already mentioned them in that part of this book dealing with the Barbarī Gulf<ref>The Sea of Somaliland.</ref> of the Sea of the Ḥabasha and those branches of Blacks who live on its coasts, and the connection they have in their country with the [people of the] country of Dahlak, Zaila’ and Nāsi'<"

 

[Shimbiris]

Proof ?

I was born and raised in the UAE. Would you like to see my visa or ID or have me actually read out the original Arabic texts for you and translate? But anyway, I don't necessarily agree with Apollo's point that me being able to read the original Arabic texts should somehow just silence you. There are good enough English translations out there and you're free to consult some Arab person you can find online if you're unsure about something. I don't have some immutable advantage here.

'When the children of Noah parted from one another, the children of Kush (wūld Kūsh) went westwards, beyond the Nile of Egypt, then divided themselves: a part of them took the way towards the south [scattering] east and [p. 128] west: they are the Nūba, the Buja and the Zanj. The other part proceeded towards the west: they are many branches such as the Zaghāwa, the Kānim, Marka, Kawkaw, Ghāna<ref>See: al-Hamdānī, note (2).</ref> and other tribes of Blacks and the Damādin.

"Then those who went south divided themselves into [various] branches such as the Zanj of al-Mukayr, al-Mushkar, Barbara and other Zanj tribes; we have already mentioned them in that part of this book dealing with the Barbarī Gulf<ref>The Sea of Somaliland.</ref> of the Sea of the Ḥabasha and those branches of Blacks who live on its coasts, and the connection they have in their country with the [people of the] country of Dahlak, Zaila’ and Nāsi'<"

What does this even prove? That Zanji people lived somewhere south of Egypt? No duh. Again, Zanj seems to come from the ancient regional name of "Azania" which, funny enough, was originally inhabited by South Cushites and means Southeastern Africa/The Swahili Coast:



Bantus started to arrive later around the Early Middle Ages where we have clear evidence of linguistic influences on them from eastern Omo-Tana ("Southern Somali") groups:



And besides, there is no evidence of Bantu substrates in any of the Southern Somali languages/dialects. Nada. Meaning they did not assimilate and encroach upon some prior "native" element. They are the native element. Unless you want to count now non-existent pre-historic hunter-gatherer groups in Koonfur.