We need Somali versions of this

Sorry but no. This is flat out truth:


I'm not going to argue with you on this. Greeks being mostly ME in genetic origins is as factual as the Sun existing. This is common knowledge in the genomics sphere and has been for at least a decade before we even had ancient DNA samples. And it is simply factual as well that Mycenaean Greek civilization was born from Minoan civilization which itself was non-Greek speaking with the Minoans being almost entirely of ancient ME origins: a mixture of Bronze Age Anatolian & Neolithic Greek which itself was of Neolithic ME origins:


What happened in Greece was not total population replacement when the Indo-European Greek-speakers came to the region but very akin to what happened in other regions like Iran and Anatolia with Iranization and Turkification. A pastoralist group of people came, installed themselves as mostly an elite in the local, settled and civilized society then left behind no more than 10-25% of their DNA and their language as well as cultural influences like their religion. Everything that made Greece civilized was already there before these steppe, Indo-European people came as you can see with the Minoans and I'm afraid you're wrong about the rest like the Phoenician script just influencing the Greek one; it is flatout accepted and demonstrable as a daughter writing script as some simple googling could show you.

Greek civilization is an extension of those in the Middle-East. This is pretty uncontroversial for anyone who knows what they're talking about, abowe. I'm not stating opinions here. Just facts.
So you're implying that Ancient Greece was merely just one of the civilisations that came from the Middle East and not an independently created civilisation? Good luck convincing Greek historians on that point.

Now your evidence in regards to the Minoans which were the first proper civilisation to appear in Greece (specifically on the island of Crete) is for the most part unproblematic. It is generally accepted that the Minoans shared an Anatolian male founder group, but to what extent was this genetic contribution? You're saying that it was significant I'm saying it likely wasn't.

You're right in your assertion that the Minoans spoke a non-Greek language, but it is yet unclassified so saying that it was non-Greek doesn't really mean much. You certainly can't say lacking any evidence that it was a Semitic Language, it's more than likely an Indo-European language in fact.

As for the Mycenaeans, yes they shared genetic links with the Minoans but the study you presented hasn't really convinced me that Myceneans also had predominantly eastern genes. It merely states that there was an admixture. This doesn't take away the fact the Mycenaeans were the main contributors to later Greek civilisation, not the Minoans. The Myceneans also as we firmly know spoke an early Greek language and had developed an indigenous Linear B script without foreign influence.

Your insistence that Greek Civilisation was entirely a middle eastern creation is unfounded and based on scant genetic reasoning. Those studies are inconclusive at best, any real historian of Ancient Greek history would dismiss your arguments.
 
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Shimbiris

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Ok thanks I mean greeks live in Mediterranean so it isn't far fetched their ancestry comes from the near east

Indeed. This is pretty much what we know from the archaeology and ancient DNA now regarding Europe's population history:
  • The most indigenous strain of ancestry on Peninsular Europe were "WHGs"
  • WHGs = Western European Hunter-Gatherers
  • In Eastern Europe (European Russia and places like Ukraine) they mixed with "ANEs"
  • ANEs = Ancient North Eurasians
  • ANEs' ancestry mostly peaks in Siberians like Kets if memory serves me right
  • ANE is basically a very ancient relative (~35,000 years) of WHG with East-Eurasian admix
  • Then around and after the Neolithic in the ME farmers from Anatolia (Turkey) expand
  • These farmers bring farming, the first animal domestication and Neolithic culture to Europe
  • They mostly displace and absorb the WHGs in Peninsular Europe
  • In Eastern Europe another mixture is occurring between "CHGs" and "EHGS"
  • EHGs = WHG + ANE
  • CHGs = Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers who are a group from ME similar to HGs in Iran
  • CHGs and Iran HGs seem a mix between something like Anatolian farmers and ANE
  • CHG + EHG hybrids who have minor Anatolian Neolithic in them form
  • These hybrids = the early Indo-Europeans
  • The early Indo-Europeans expand into Peninsular Europe and heavily mix with the farmers
  • Modern Europeans essentially = Steppe (IE) + Anatolian Farmers + remnant WHG
Oversimplified a bit, believe or not, but that's the gist and we have a myriad of papers, samples and analyses to prove it:


(Follow the publication history of this Harvard Med Geneticist if you wanna see the other studies, especially the more recent ones)​

Southern Europe, mainly Greece and Italy sort of breaks from this clear-cut story, though. Both regions received post-Neolithic admixture from the Middle-East after the Anatolian and CHG stuff. Greece seems to have started to get it between the Neolithic and Bronze-Age and continued on some level ever since.

The later ME ancestry in Greece and much of the Balkans is different from what it's in other Europeans like Brits and Germans in that it comes with elements like Natufian and Iran Neolithic related ancestry from the post-Neolithic Middle-East when ancient MEs basically started intermixing and forming people like Chalcolithic Iranians who were a mix of CHG, Iran-Neolithic, Natufian, Anatolian-Neolithic and so forth.

Italy is very similar but with Italy a recent paper has shown us that this shift only began around the Iron-Age:


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Late Republican and Imperial Rome seems to have encouraged quite massive influxes of MENAs into Italy alongside the substantial Greek colonization that was already going on. But both Greece and Italy experienced a sort of "balancing effect" during the Middle-Ages. With Greece and the Balkans this was the expansions of the Slavs who left behind quite a heavy mark on even modern Greeks genetically whereas in Italy it was the expansions of the Germanic and Celtic Barbarians which leaves us now with modern Greeks and Italians who sit in an intermediate position between North-Central Europeans and Middle-Easterners where ancient Greeks would have been much more ME shifted and pre-Late Republic Romans would have been more European shifted:

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These are models using a software called nMonte on this website running samples from a Global PCA hosted by this quite prolific Polish gentleman from this blog who even gets recognition from and rubs shoulders with the authors of many of the studies I shared. He's a pretty reliable character as his software. Anyway, gonna leave this tangent be. Already derailed the thread enough.

Hope you were following along and learned something interesting, little huuno.
 

Shimbiris

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As for the Mycenaeans, yes they shared genetic links with the Minoans but the study you presented hasn't really convinced me that Myceneans also had predominantly eastern genes. It merely states that there was an admixture. This doesn't take away the fact the Mycenaeans were the main contributors to later Greek civilisation, not the Minoans. The Myceneans also as we firmly know spoke an early Greek language and had developed an indigenous Linear B script without foreign influence.

If you could understand the data in those studies at all you would realize Mycenaeans can be modeled as 65-70% Anatolian-Farmer, 20% Chalcolithic Iranian and only 15% Steppe (Indo-European):
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And you can further model the Mycenaeans as overwhelmingly descended from a population closely related to Minoans with a bit of steppe (IE) on top:

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Nothing inconclusive at all here, abowe. These sorts of results have been replicated over and over in the literature. I'm afraid you're living in the stone age when it comes to the study of ancient history. Everything I've been telling you is fairly uncontroversial at this point. Things like agriculture, metallurgy and writing in Greece have their origins in the Middle-East as does most of the ancestry of Ancient Greeks. Anyone contesting this is simply arguing with data and I have no interest in engaging with that. It's like arguing with someone who wants to prattle with me about whether the Sun exists or not. An absurd exercise.

I'll leave it at that. We have derailed this thread enough. Do not take me not replying after this as any form of rudeness.
 

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