Was Hetshepsut really Horner?

[Bobthebuilder]

I think it was in Eritrea to be honest. They have analyzed the isotopes of Puntite baboons and it matched Eritrea and Tigray, Ethiopia the most.

Since Puntland named itself after Punt, people researching Punt often end up with info about Somalia. It wouldn't surprise me that your tour guide ended up thinking it was Somalia because of that. Also, since Somalia is even further away from Egypt, it will make it more impressive than if Punt was just nearby Eritrea. Egyptians also kinda hate Habeshas because of the Nile water conflict.

Lol, I am making myself very unpopular by saying Ancient Egyptians were not like Somalis and that Punt was not in Somalia but in Eritrea, Kkkkk.

i thought you were all about science why you are making up lies about the baboon mummies. The baboon mummies from punt matched baboons from Eritrea, Somalia and Ethiopia.
"
Our results reveal a high likelihood match with eastern Somalia and the Eritrea-Ethiopia corridor, suggesting that this region was the source of Papio hamadryas exported to Ancient Egypt." https://meeting.physanth.org/progra...ons-clarify-ancient-red-sea-trade-routes.html

Okay, I have another question. I think I read somewhere that during that time period in Eritrea and the highlands of Ethiopia, they were fully/mostly cushites at that time as it was before their contact with the Sabeans. Therefore, wouldn't they have been the same or similar group to that of our ancestors?

Apollo is pushing alot of propaganda lol. Punt is known for frankincense and the frankincense found in Egyptian tombs matched the frankincense that only grows in Somalia.

F. Nigel Hepper of the Royal Botanical Gardens reports that botanists have identified this ‘ntiyw variety with Boswellia frereana. Along with Boswellia carteri, he indicates that these incense are only found in northern Somalia. Both species of frankincense have also been found in actual ancient Egyptian tombs. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3856001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

 

[tariq moses]

Apollo is pushing alot of propaganda lol. Punt is known for frankincense and the frankincense found in Egyptian tombs matched the frankincense that only grows in Somalia.

F. Nigel Hepper of the Royal Botanical Gardens reports that botanists have identified this ‘ntiyw variety with Boswellia frereana. Along with Boswellia carteri, he indicates that these incense are only found in northern Somalia. Both species of frankincense have also been found in actual ancient Egyptian tombs. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3856001?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I doubt he's being purposefully dishonest, but Somalia does seem to have been included in Punt.

Punts borders probably looked something like this.

 

[UgaasWeli]

I doubt he's being purposefully dishonest, but Somalia does seem to have been included in Punt.
View attachment 215244

Punts borders probably looked something like this.

No one knows the true borders and no one can claim it was in this area or whatever, for all we know it could have been on the south eastern coast of Somalia too

 

[Tewahedo]

1. Your source says nothing about modern "upper" Egyptians, just Egyptians in general, either way, there isn't a massive difference between the 2 regions.

2. Batrawi's methodology in that study was the "Coefficient of Racial Likeness", which has been proven to be completely bogus.

3. The southern phenotype that you're talking about doesn't even exist in Egypt anymore outside of Bejas, this has been noted since the early 1900s that the pre dynastic Upper Egyptian type mixed with the northern type, which over time produced modern Egyptians, the closest thing to the southern phenotype in Egypt today isn't found amongst the people along the nile, this is shit thats been established for over 100 years in biological anthropology. Many old kingdom Northerners have been shown to be differentiated from Pre dynastic southerners, how tf wouldn't this be the case for modern Egyptians when we know for a fact that Northerners kept settling in the south over time?

Alright what about this ? :

To summarize, the dental distance analysis suggests that the Gebel Ramlah inhabitants are biologically closer to Nubians than Egyptians, but the overall differences are comparatively minor. Instead, they may best be characterized as ‘intermediate’ to samples of various ages from the two regions. The craniometric distances, using pooled and other comparative samples from additional geographic regions, support the dental findings. In this case, Gebel Ramlah appears ‘intermediate’ between sub-Saharan Africans and Europeans. On a regional level, they are most similar to, though ‘intermediate’ from post-Neolithic Nubians and Upper Egyptians.

(PDF) Gebel Ramlah: Final Neolithic Cemeteries from the Western Desert of Egypt.

PDF | On Jan 1, 2010, M. Kobusiewicz and others published Gebel Ramlah: Final Neolithic Cemeteries from the Western Desert of Egypt. | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

what about genetic affinity ? :

Maghreb populations are closer to European and Middle Eastern populations while Upper Egyptian populations show more affinities with sub-Saharan and East African populations. Our work also reveals a clear and significant genetic differentiation between Maghreb Berbers and Egyptian Berbers, with the latter showing more affinities with East African populations.

http://www.didac.ehu.es/antropo/18/18-6/Coudray.pdf

Moreover such populations plot next to late period egyptians from middle egypt :

In addition, the predynastic sample from Badari (bad) is consistently positioned near the other two predynastic samples, particularly Hierakonpolis (hrk); early dynastic Abydos (aby) is plotted nearby. Badari and Hierakonpolis are both adjacent to the centroid in MDS space, suggesting they may be similar to many of the other diachronic samples—either through shared ancestry or a significant genetic contribution to subsequent groups. The Roman Period (AD 50–600) samples of Hawara (haw) and El Hesa (hes), but not Kharga (kha), form a loose cluster, with Hawara consistently positioned near the centroid of all three MDS plots; as above, this location suggests there was considerable affinity with the other groups. It is important to point out that Roman Period burial samples do not necessarily include actual Romans

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.20976

 

[Tewahedo]

I've been told by some academics in the know that I'm in contact with that Old Kingdom samples basically look ancient "North-African" with very little if any Iran-Chalcolithic type ancestry but also very little SSA (proto-Nilotic). I take this to mean they probably looked like some population on a continuum between Iberomaurusians and Natufians. So there would probably be a fair amount of "SSA" type ancestry in them but just the "Ancestral North African" kind that makes Iberomaurusians cluster like pseudo-Horners and is found all over the prehistoric Middle East like in Neolithic Anatolians to some degree (10%, I hear). But all in all I'd be surprised if any Ancient Egyptians outside of Upper Egyptians from areas bordering Lower Nubia like Aswan and Luxor were anything more than 10-20% "SSA" in total. I really can't wait to see these Old Kingdom samples, though. The way they're described... they may prove an excellent proxy for Horners' non-Arabian MENA side.

Copt-like folks seem to start appearing during the Middle Kingdom when these academics say you start seeing a fair amount of "BedouinB" type ancestry (better represented by Jordan-Early-Bronze-Age samples) setting in which probably marks large scale influxes of Semites like the Hyksos intermixing with the previous Egyptians.

Also, I really wouldn't make too much of how Masris looked in those murals. I get the sense that Ancient Egyptians were propagandists and exaggerated physical types to differentiate political groups:



Besides, we have depictions like this from some of the earliest dynasties:

View attachment 215225

Circa 2613–2494 BCE​

View attachment 215226

Circa 2600-2400 BCE​

Look incredibly like modern Egyptians, to be honest.

But anyway, we're not unrelated to Ancient Egyptians. Like half of our prehistoric ancestry seems to come from prehistoric Egypt, we're Afro-Asiatic speakers like them and seem to share many historical customs and cultural features with them such as even the unfortunate practice of FGM and our early Cushitic speaking ancestors also seem to have had some early trade contact with them, not to mention the last 2000-3,000 years of extensive trade contact. For whatever it's also worth, our Cushitic cousins the Beja/North-Cushites have been rolling with these guys for a long, long time doing anything from serving as an early elite force in the Egyptian military (Medjay) to at some point even having a Beja/Blemmye King apparently ruling over Luxor and seeming to be the predominant force in Lower Nubia:



Geeljires should satisfy themselves at that and not indulge in Hotepism.

an upcoming study will include samples from Upper egypt and span 4000 years of history, they apparently reached the same conclusions as the Abusir paper when it comes to Mtdna :

Egypt represents an ideal location for genetic studies on population migration and admixture due to its geographic location and rich history. However, there are only a few reliable genetic studies on ancient Egyptian samples. In a previous study, we assessed the genetic history of a single site: Abusir el-Meleq from 1388 BCE to 426 CE. We now focus on widening the geographic scope to give a general overview of the population genetic background, focusing on mitochondrial haplogroups present among the whole Egyptian Nile River Valley. We collected 81 tooth, hair, bone, and soft tissue samples from 14 mummies and 17 skeletal remains. The samples span approximately 4000 years of Egyptian history and originate from six different excavation sites covering the whole length of the Egyptian Nile River Valley. NGS based ancient DNA 8 were applied to reconstruct 18 high-quality mitochondrial genomes from 10 different individuals. The determined mitochondrial haplogroups match the results from our Abusir el-Meleq study. Our results indicate very low rates of modern DNA contamination independent of the tissue type. Although authentic ancient DNA was recovered from different tissues, a reliable recovery was best achieved using teeth or petrous bone material. Moreover, the rate for successful ancient DNA retrieval between Egyptian mummies and skeletal remains did not differ significantly. Our study provides preliminary insights into population history across different regions and compares tissue-specific DNA preservation for mummies and skeletal remains from the Egyptian Nile River Valley.

https://isba9.sciencesconf.org/data/pages/Abstract_Book_ISBA9_2022.pdf

 

[Apollo]

an upcoming study will include samples from Upper egypt and span 4000 years of history

Hoteps going to cry once again as reality debunks their ideas.

It is pathetic honestly at this point to believe Horner-like Ancient Egyptians were common or the main race of Ancient Egypt, complete dishonesty.

 

[tariq moses]

Alright what about this ? :

(PDF) Gebel Ramlah: Final Neolithic Cemeteries from the Western Desert of Egypt.

PDF | On Jan 1, 2010, M. Kobusiewicz and others published Gebel Ramlah: Final Neolithic Cemeteries from the Western Desert of Egypt. | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Do you even know what your citing? Why are you bringing up Gebel Ramlah? They are SSA shifted Western Desert people, who aren't represative of Nile Valley Egyptians, you cited the least relevant part of the study. Please read the study before you cite it, you would know that the Egyptians here show the affinity to Ethiopians:


This study goes completely against what you're saying. COMPLETELY.

And I don't even necessarily disagree with the rest of your post.

 

[Tewahedo]

Do you even know what your citing? Why are you bringing up Gebel Ramlah? They are SSA shifted Western Desert people, who aren't represative of Nile Valley Egyptians, you cited the least relevant part of the study. Please read the study before you cite it, you would know that the Egyptians here show the affinity to Ethiopians:


This study goes completely against what you're saying. COMPLETELY.

And I don't even necessarily disagree with the rest of your post.

They included many predynastic samples and samples from neighbouring regions and why are upper egyptians one of the most similar group to them if this early type "disappeared" ? Moreover where did they contradict me ? I literally told you that ancient and modern upper egyptians show affinities with east africans which is exactly what they show in the pics you posted.

 

[tariq moses]

Hoteps going to cry once again as reality debunks their ideas.

Hotep? I've explicitly stated the core of Egyptian ancestry from 70,000+ years ago to today is strongly Eurasian related and not predominantly SSA. This is a hotep view?
Explicitly stating that Old kingdom Egyptians will have a lot less SSA ancestry than Horn Africans is a hotep view?
I've said it before and I'll say it again, the clustering between Upper Egyptians and Horn Africans is real, and has a partly genetic basis, as I have previously said, the proportion of mesolithic egyptian to neolithic farmer ancestry of Npper Egyptians/Lower Nubians has been retained by horners, this is largely the reason they cluster together, not due to Egyptians having lots of SSA ancestry, I've said Old kingdom egyptians will exist on a spectrum between the Horn and modern egypt, which is around were Mozabites/Berbers sit on PCA, arguing that Old kingdom Egyptians will plot near mozabites is a hotep view? I personally believe that a Copt-like profile may have existed as far back as the Old KIngdom but it was mostly restricted to the North, is this also a hotep view? Its clear you haven't read my posts properly as you have misrepresented what I've said in the past, so you can ask me to clarify my opinions rather than miscontrue what I post.

 

[tariq moses]

They included many predynastic samples and samples from neighbouring regions and why are upper egyptians one of the most similar group to them if this early type "disappeared" ? Moreover where did they contradict me ? I literally told you that ancient and modern upper egyptians show affinities with east africans which is exactly what they show in the pics you posted.

Bro just please read the study, the upper Egyptians in this paper aren't modern, there talking about ancient upper Egyptians, look at the sample table, they have no modern egyptians in there.
The early Upper Egyptian type doesnt exist in a pure form anymore, this has been established for over 100 years now, this is NOT a fringe view in the slightest, even during the old kingdom Southerners started to look like Northerners.

 

[Apollo]

Bro just please read the study, the upper Egyptians in this paper aren't modern, there talking about ancient upper Egyptians, look at the sample table, they have no modern egyptians in there.
The early Upper Egyptian type doesnt exist in a pure form anymore, this has been established for over 100 years now, this is NOT a fringe view in the slightest, even during the old kingdom Southerners started to look like Northerners.

We don't know much about the population living in the border area between Egypt and Sudan around ~6,500 YBP.

People assume they were like today's Nubians, but we don't know that. For all we know, the Egyptian type could have been demographically dominant deep into North Sudan and potentially only much later could the Nilote admixed Nubian/Cushite type have expanded and increased SSA into the EGY-SUD border area.

 

[tariq moses]

It is a hotep-esque view because it is illogical. Such a scenario would require strong ethnic and linguistic differences plus social taboos against intermarriages (like Jews in the MENA world faced). Ancient Egyptians were roughly all the same ethnicity. It doesn't make much sense to expect huge difference between the Delta and Upper Egypt when it comes to the same ethnic group.

Bruh... Upper Egyptians and Lower Egyptians being morphologically distinct has been accepted literally since the dawn of Egyptology, anyone with a cursory knowledge on Egyptian population history knows this so you've defininetly come across this idea so I don't understand the pushback, this isn't illogical in the slightest when its been established since the 1800s and is still very much accepted today.
The largest difference between the 2 regions is gonna be Neolithic Farmer ancestry IMO, where it will be concentrated in the North whilst Southerners will have a lot less, I don't even think we need to invoke Hyksos, Persians, Greeks etc... to explain most of the components of modern Egyptians, they could be largely modelled as Mesolithic Egyptian + Neolithic Farmer. What "hoteps" believe this?

It doesn't have to be a massive difference, early Upper Egyptians will probably plot around Mozabites whilst contemporary Lower Egyptians would have plotted near modern Egyptians, this isn't a massive difference, the defining differences will be the ratio of Mesolithic Egyptian to Neolithic Farmer.

 

[Apollo]

@tariq moses

See my post above.

Africa has a weird population history. One thing I learned from reading the various population history studies is to never assume current populations reflect the ancient ones.

You are extrapolating current demographics way into the past without much evidence. In Europe you had Sardinian/Anatolian-like people being demographically dominant all the way to Sweden at the time we are speaking of and not the current blonde ''Aryan'' ones with origins from the Ukrainian steppes.

 

[tariq moses]

We don't know much about the population living in the border area between Egypt and Sudan around ~6,500 YBP.

I'm rusty when it comes to archeology but i think its believed that there was a large pastoral(maybe agro-pastoral) cultural complex which would have included the ancestors of upper egyptians and lower nubians

People assume they were like today's Nubians, but we don't know that. For all we know, the Egyptian type could have been demographically dominant deep into North Sudan and potentially only much later could the Nilote admixed Nubian/Cushite type have expanded and increased SSA into the EGY-SUD border area.

I don't hold any strong views on this, I've thought about this a lot and can never come to a firm conclusion...

We have pre-neolithic remains from Sudan(Al khiday) showing they already clustered realy strongly with Lower Nubians like certian Kermans, C group etc... and were very distant to strongly SSA sample like Jebel Sahaba.

JSA = Jebel Sahaba, AKH =Al khiday(Paleolithic Egypto-Sudanese culture)

These Al Khiday people are the Mesolithic Egyptians who are largely ancestral to ancient Egyptians and Lower Nubians, they were discovered in Sudan, but they have cultural practises that are way older in Egypt, so in all likelihood they were a native Egyptian people and were only in Sudan at the time due to a wet spell.


These remains are extremely similar to Lower Nubians who we know were very similar to predynastic Upper Egyptians, you can tell the sample needs a bit of Neolithic Farmer ancestry so it can fall deeper into the Lower Nubian and Upper Egyptian cluster and boom, there we have it, Early ancient Egyptians and Lower Nubians.


The thing is, I expect this Al Khiday sample to be mostly Eurasian related, combined with the Neolithic Farmer I wouldn't expect Neolithic Egyptians to be more than 20-30% SSA, but Lower Nubians probably were, so it indicates that they were disproportionately affected by some sort of SSA, probably Nilotic ancestry, you don't really see this in the Neolithic AFAIK, some Nubian cultures like the A group were SSA shifted but they still cluster closely with Upper Egypt.


So I think really early Lower Nubians(6500 years ago) will look mostly like Neolithic Egyptians with only a little bit more Nilotic ancestry, Idk if you're aware but it’s said that Kerma remains over time start to look more and more like Kenyans, whilst the earlier remains were extremely similar to upper Egyptians, one study describing them as being nearly indistinguishable, so it does seem like there was a trend towards a more SSA type over time but I’m not sure if this is reflected in other parts of Sudan, so your proposal is probably correct.