Ok jazakallah sxb you have informed me well using quran and sunnah, to summarise then issue with modern day claimants of the salaf followers is the tawassul and chain takfir,
I found some quotes earlier regarding Imam Abu Hanifa from a website
" Al-Nawawi later says that the pilgrim should face Mecca (al-qiblah) when making supplication, indicating that the supplication is for Allah and not to the Prophet (ṣ) himself.
Scholars like Al-Nawawi permitted such tawassul using specific formulas that were free of idolatry, although other scholars considered this tawassul to be discouraged or prohibited.
Imam Abu Hanifa, may Allah be pleased with him, said:
لَا يَنْبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ أَنْ يَدْعُوَ اللَّهَ إلَّا بِهِ
No one should call upon Allah except by Him.
Source: al-Durr al-Mukhtār 6/396 "
I mean it seems to me theres a fine line regarding tawassul that earlier ulemah of aswj referred to it seems like some extreme and i mean extreme individuals crossed the fine line and gone onto fully commiting shirk.
So this must of caused some people to takfir anyone who endorses tawassul even the tawassul is not the issue itself rather its the people who abuse tawassul similar to those who abuse takfir...
This is what i am assuming at the end of the day this is a very massive topic and requires fluency in arabic, fiqh, tafsir, hadiths etc
I made this thread to understand the viewpoints people had against Abdul wahhab using quran and sunnan and to not come using emotion so jazakallah sxb
and as i mentioned before it looks like its the chain takfir and completely denying tawassul altogether which to me seems like a valid argument
It's not about tawassul and chain takfir those are just some of the issues, all of their problems arise as a result of having a different understanding of tawheed & shirk. They then use this understanding of theirs to interpret the Quran & Sunnah and issue rulings based thereafter.
It's their understanding which forces them to accuse muslims of calling to other than Allah i.e shirk akbar when they seem them performing tawassul at the grave sites, they refer to them as grave worshippers
Then he (i.e. the one visiting the grave of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) should return to his original position facing the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, and he should make him a mean for himself and seek intercession through him unto his Lord subhanahu wa ta'ala.
And the best what can be said [here] is what al-Mawardi (d. 450 AH) and al-Qadhi Abu al-Tayyib (d. 450 AH) and the rest of our [Shafi'i] companions narrated from al-'Utbi and they regarded it as good. He said:
"As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet, a Beduin Arab came and said: "Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: "If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful" (4:64), so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord."
That's the statement of imam nawawi advising people what to say when visiting the Prophet's peace be upon him grave.
If the disagreement salafis had with tawassul been simply about the choice of words or even transgressing the limits then they would not have problems with it to begin with. They would've differentiated between the lawful & unlawful tawassul with the deceased but they don't, ask yourself when was the last time you listened to a talk by salafi where they mention this ?. There is a reason why wrote the following as a response to
@ReerVanCadde
Tawassul ( invoking intermediaries through Allah)
Tabarruk ( seeking blessings through people)
Ziyarat Qubur ( grave visting)
The person you quoted believed in tawassul via dead people calling them for help aka grave worshipping.
Allah mentions many times in the quran invoke him only and no one else
Allaah says of the people of Hell (interpretation of the meaning): [They say:] By Allaah, we were truly in a manifest error when we held you (false gods) as equals (in worship) with the Lord of the Worlds. [al-Shuara 26:96-97]
So why are they visiting saints and asking for intercession is this not shirk ?
The response you gave is exactly what salafis teach ie tawassul with the deceased is shirk akbar laakin when they're confronted with daleel showing that this was a matter that is prescribed and classical ulama allowed it they're left in a difficult positions and the only way to reconcile is to read in their bias into the statements of the classical scholars.
When salafis talk about valid tawassul they only allow it with the living anything else for them is shirk or not allowed. Imam ahmad acted on the hadith of seeking help from angles when one is lost etc
Imaam Ahmad by his son ‘Abdullah; the wording of which is as follows: ‘Abdullah the son of Imam Ahmad said: "I heard my father say: 'I performed Hajj five times, twice riding and three times walking, or twice walking and three times riding. I lost my way during one Hajj and I was walking,
so I began to call out: O slaves of Allah show me the way. I kept doing that until I found the road.' or as my father had said."
Just let it sink for a sec, a scholar the likes of imam ahmad is calling on Angles to help him, can we even claim that he's unaware of what invoking other than Allah means ?
This is why i mentioned that it's the mis-understanding of salafis regarding issues of tawheed & shirk which is leading them to accuse muslims of shirk, calling them grave worshippers etc. I mean how can you know if an individual is performing the lawful tawassul with the deceased when you don't view such tawassul to be valid at all ? do you see how easy it becomes to then issue takfir etc
Biggest issues from classification of tawheed
1. Separating between ilah and rabb
2. Affirming tawheed rububiyah to makan pagans
3. Claiming that majority of bani adam are equal in affirming tawheed rububiyyah
With due i'll can explain a bit more in detail inshallah
