The strangeness of somali nomads

[Midas]

Something I've been thinking about recently after reading about other nomadic societies to understand what's particular to our own. Is how weird and different we are compared to the others I've read about. The major other pastoral nomadic societies seem to be the sahelian and sahran nomads Of which the tuareg and the fulani are good examples of. Then we have the central asian steppe nomads like the Mongols and kazakhs/uzbeks. In all of these societies what you find is very stratified social hierarchy with a small aristocratic ruling clas and these hierarchies are almost caste like in their division. In central asia for example mongolian aristocrats would have their herds managed by the equivalent of nomadic Serfs who would move the livestock from pasture to pasture

After reading about these societies I realized while there is variation it seems all the main pastoral nomadic societies seem to fit into this pattern with only one real exception which is somalis. Now why is that the case ? I honestly have no idea maybe its connected to the homogeneity of our society whereas these other societies seem to have conquered and integrated other smaller ethnic groups into their confederation.

 

[Midas]

Oh and I forgot to add we seem to be the only nomadic pastoralist society who was also seafaring.

 

[Masdhir]

Does it have something to do with Somali's conception of property ownership? I don't know much about those other people's, but the only way I can imagine such a situation arising is that they recognize one person or group as owning all the property, and another class acting as the renters. While, in my understanding at least, Somali's view livestock as personal property, and land as belonging to a kinship section.

 

[Midas]

Does it have something to do with Somali's conception of property ownership? I don't know much about those other people's, but the only way I can imagine such a situation arising is that they recognize one person or group as owning all the property, and another class acting as the renters. While, in my understanding at least, Somali's view livestock as personal property, and land as belonging to a kinship section.

I dont think they view it that way either. These guys were basically the equivalent of feudal aristocracts and those guys had conceptions of personal property.

I assume it has to do probably with thr nature of somali pastrolaism and the fact that there isn't some ruling aristocrat class in our society

 

[yele25]

what about in comparisons to the native american nomads?

 

[Midas]

what about in comparisons to the native american nomads?

I'm not too familiar with them but they weren't nomadic in that sense. The native Americans didn't own any livestock. They were basically nomadic hunter gatherers

 

[Idilinaa]

From what you’re saying, hierarchy in those societies was structured around herds and control of pastures. Aristocrats held large herds, while "serf-like" groups managed them which looks much closer to feudal arrangements.

That’s pretty different from how Majerteen society was described in the 1800s:

It was more bureaucratic in structure, with classes like nobility, administrators, clergy, military etc., much like other sultanates. But Somali society never developed a feudal setup.

Leaders didn’t hold land, and while wealthy elites controlled urban real estate/property and assets, power came mainly from taxing trade and production. Our hierarchies were built on exchanges rather than landholding.

Wealth flowed through trade networks, ports, and the movement of goods (frankincense, gums, pastoral goods, agricultural products , textiles, mats, pearls, jewelry, gold/silver, currency etc etc), not from rigid systems of land or labor control. That’s why caste like structures never formed among Somalis , the economy was trade based, so the system revolved around circulation and exchange.

Power was maintained by controlling trade routes and production, taxing commerce , and managing networks that linked ports, caravan routes, and interior markets. That’s why Somali society developed bureaucracy and taxation systems rather than caste based dependency relations.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Something I've been thinking about recently after reading about other nomadic societies to understand what's particular to our own. Is how weird and different we are compared to the others I've read about. The major other pastoral nomadic societies seem to be the sahelian and sahran nomads Of which the tuareg and the fulani are good examples of. Then we have the central asian steppe nomads like the Mongols and kazakhs/uzbeks. In all of these societies what you find is very stratified social hierarchy with a small aristocratic ruling clas and these hierarchies are almost caste like in their division. In central asia for example mongolian aristocrats would have their herds managed by the equivalent of nomadic Serfs who would move the livestock from pasture to pasture

After reading about these societies I realized while there is variation it seems all the main pastoral nomadic societies seem to fit into this pattern with only one real exception which is somalis. Now why is that the case ? I honestly have no idea maybe its connected to the homogeneity of our society whereas these other societies seem to have conquered and integrated other smaller ethnic groups into their confederation.

Because somali nomadism isnt that old, it was an adaptation of lifestyle that was made abruptly, whereas other nomadic cultures are thousands of years old

 

[Midas]

From what you’re saying, hierarchy in those societies was structured around herds and control of pastures. Aristocrats held large herds, while "serf-like" groups managed them which looks much closer to feudal arrangements.

That’s pretty different from how Majerteen society was described in the 1800s:

View attachment 370663

It was more bureaucratic in structure, with classes like nobility, administrators, clergy, military etc., much like other sultanates. But Somali society never developed a feudal setup.

Leaders didn’t hold land, and while wealthy elites controlled urban real estate/property and assets, power came mainly from taxing trade and production. Our hierarchies were built on exchanges rather than landholding.

Wealth flowed through trade networks, ports, and the movement of goods (frankincense, gums, pastoral goods, agricultural products , textiles, mats, pearls, jewelry, gold/silver, currency etc etc), not from rigid systems of land or labor control. That’s why caste like structures never formed among Somalis , the economy was trade based, so the system revolved around circulation and exchange.

Power was maintained by controlling trade routes and production, taxing commerce , and managing networks that linked ports, caravan routes, and interior markets. That’s why Somali society developed bureaucracy and taxation systems rather than caste based dependency relations.

Yeah exactly. But their stuff was way even more extreme than I think my word entail. Here's what the actual author says.

 

[Midas]

Because somali nomadism isnt that old, it was an adaptation of lifestyle that was made abruptly, whereas other nomadic cultures are thousands of years old

Nah I dont really think thats true. While we had large state structures in the past. The simple fact is that somali nomadism always formed the bedrock of somalia's economy. The camel caravans which moved massive amounts of goods through the country is who knows how many millenia old.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Nah I dont really think thats true. While we had large state structures in the past. The simple fact is that somali nomadism always formed the bedrock of somalia's economy. The camel caravans which moved massive amounts of goods through the country is who knows how many millenia old.

Camel caravans have nothing to do with nomadism

 

[Yusuf Abdi Ali Rashid]

Somalis were too dumb to organize on the basis of class so they chose the easiest option, kinship networks. Thats why we’re here.

 

[Midas]

Camel caravans have nothing to do with nomadism

Who do you is raising the camels and the other livestock associated with these caravans?

 

[Midas]

Somalis were too dumb to organize on the basis of class so they chose the easiest option, kinship networks. Thats why we’re here.

Not really the reason is simply becuase we didn't have any large economies next to us. All these steppe kingdoms where next to China and reliant on chinese trade so whenever the chinese economy collapsed they also lost their source of wealth and the steppe states collapsed.

 

[Idilinaa]

I have to se i really vibe with the nomad label, it doesn't describe Somali society at all with connaotatios it carries. It's better we use ''Pastoralist". Somali society was an agro-pastoral-trade based society. Our wealth/production didn't only come from pastoralism, but also agriculture and trade.

Yeah exactly. But their stuff was way even more extreme than I think my word entail. Here's what the actual author says.

View attachment 370666View attachment 370667

This sounds a lot like how Somali pastoralist families managed their herds , they were seen as property/wealth and even how towns men & elites would lease their herds out and there was grazing rights and land management system regulation. Annual seasonal cycles.

This pretty much reiterate what me ,The alchemist and @Shimbiris have been saying about the complexity of pastoralism and mobile pastoralism and how it allows for large wealth creation surplus and a political hiearchy can easily form by taxing this production. Just like agriculture did.

There is a pretty strong bias that refuses to see it in that way.

 

[Midas]

I have to se i really vibe with the nomad label, it doesn't describe Somali society at all with connaotatios it carries. It's better we use ''Pastoralist". Somali society was an agro-pastoral-trade based society. Our wealth/production didn't only come from pastoralism, but also agriculture and trade.



This sounds a lot like how Somali pastoralist families managed their herds , they were seen as property/wealth and even how towns men & elites would lease their herds out and the grazing rights and land management system regulation. Anual seasonal cycles.

This pretty much reiterate what me ,The alchemist and @Shimbiris have been saying about the complexity of pastoralism and mobile pastoralism and how it allows for large wealth creation surplus and a political hiearchy can easily form by taxing this production.

There is a pretty strong bias that refuses to see it in that way.

Yeah but most of the non aristocrats weren't really independent. They belonged to the aristocrats.

Although I suspect if we were next to some major china sized economy we'd probably also with the excess wealth from the trade develop more hierarchical state structures

 

[Idilinaa]

Somalis were too dumb to organize on the basis of class so they chose the easiest option, kinship networks. Thats why we’re here.

Somali clan structure is not political. I can’t stress this enough, they are socio-economic units connected to trade and cooperation. The main thing that sets Somalis apart is that we weren’t just pastoralists or agriculturalists; we were also trade based. That’s really what shaped us.

Class distinctions and social hierarchies, however, come from controlling surplus production and taxing it, including trade and property in our case. By extracting resources from others often via taxation, tribute, or trade you create a non-producing population, and that’s how class distinctions develop between producers and non-producers.

Somalis formed class structures when that happened, just like other societies.

 

[Midas]

Somali clan structure is not political. I can’t stress this enough, they are socio-economic units connected to trade and cooperation. The main thing that sets Somalis apart is that we weren’t just pastoralists or agriculturalists; we were also trade based. That’s really what shaped us.

Class distinctions and social hierarchies, however, come from controlling surplus production and taxing it, including trade and property in our case. By extracting resources from others often via taxation, tribute, or trade you create a non-producing population, and that’s how class distinctions develop between producers and non-producers.

Somalis formed class structures when that happened, just like other societies.

Honestly if somebody like the sayyid had emerged 30 years earlier than he did. Than we might have actually built a unified somali state

 

[Idilinaa]

Yeah but most of the non aristocrats weren't really independent. They belonged to the aristocrats.

Although I suspect if we were next to some major china sized economy we'd probably also with the excess wealth from the trade develop more hierarchical state structures

It really is just surplus production/wealth and taking control of it that creates an aristocratic base out of a non-producing population. You can't form a non-producing population if you plunge into subsistence level , thats why those types are usually chieftanships. It doesn't matter if your society's economic base is agriculture or pastoral.

But I don’t think Somali society would have had a feudal-style hierarchy, no matter how much wealth grew. It would have been more bureaucratic, because what underpinned our relationships was exchange, not caste dependency or serfdom.

Our relationship wasn't based on land control or personal dependence. So our authority and hierarchy come from trade, administration, and economic roles for the most part.

 

[Midas]

It really is just surplus production/wealth and taking control of it that creates an aristocratic base out of a non-producing population. You can't form a non-producing population if you plunge into subsistence level , thats why those types are usually chieftanships. It doesn't matter if your society's economic base is agriculture or pastoral.

But I don’t think Somali society would have had a feudal-style hierarchy, no matter how much wealth grew. It would have been more bureaucratic, because what underpinned our relationships was exchange, not caste dependency or serfdom.

Our relationship wasn't based on land control or personal dependence. So our authority and hierarchy come from trade, administration, and economic roles for the most part.

True. While I dont agree with the Spanish archeologists who said we were anti-state. There is some truth to the idea that if we conceptualize states as taking control of surplus production then there was simply no way to do that in somalia without a huge amount of difficulty. Since you could setup a port or trading town almost anywhere in the country. Whereas if you look at the Arabian penisula in comparison there were only a few large oases in a sea of desert so it was much easier to control trade and surplus.