The Somali With Saharan Haplogroup, Theory

[The alchemist]

New Somali sample from NW Africa

E-PF2438 YTree

www.yfull.com

No relatives for 9200 years

Responding to this highly interesting post by @Reformed J, I will have to post what I think about it:

That Somali could have a direct Chado-Berber node ancestry.

My assumption is movement from the Libyan-Chad region by people into northeast Africa Nile-Valley by people who resembled the first Abstract on @Cognitive's thread.

I think a strong contender is a Kiffian-type migration, related to those 6-foot-plus-statured groups that lived contemporaneously as that TMCRA age. The material objects on the sites were Dotted Wavy Line pottery, very characteristic of a north and Sudanic type pottery, and utilizing harpoons -- these were attributes common among the hunter-fisher Sudanic peoples that subsisted on aquatic resources prior to pastoralism/agriculture. This pottery inside the Sahara (west of modern Sudan) was demic with the cultural horizon, but it's hard to say how the initial introduction of the Dotted Wavy Line (oldest in Sahara, but Wavy Line, a separate pottery type in the Nile Valley was likely the source of all these pottery traditions as it has an older dating and assumed as origin by the experts) transitioned from the Sudanic region into the Saharan region. I think a mix of cultural diffusion and demic diffusion.

Now, you had this Dotted Wavy Line phase all over the Saharan-Sahel region during the Green period, showing itself in the immediate vicinity of Takarkori by that Southwestern Libyan Uan Muhuggiag mummified child (probably the forerunner practice to the Egyptian mummification), some two thousand years after the samples on the abstract. Evidence points to that the people of Takarkori had the same pottery. These groups who had basal N1 mtDNA morphologically looked similar to the groups in Gobero.

The conclusion is, that this guy's Y-DNA originated from these types of people, the Takarkori samples will cover the genetics of the Gobero and the Somali in question's ancestor's autosomal makeup. Further what this means is that those kinds of people moved into the Nile Valley. The fact that they had the same pottery and marine-based specialization means they had contact with the early people of the Nile Valley. I'm not sure if this facilitated genetic exchange by any of these groups at first but we see the results of this amongst the Saharans today.

The pottery came from the Nile Valley, and when you see the earliest appearance in the region of the Takakori samples, it sort of coincides with the TMRCA of the haplogroup you showed:

What we have is highly mobile people that enjoyed the Green Sahara places until things turned extremely hot and dry, so they scattered into major places with consistent resources or refugia spots within the deserts, and some of them went towards the margins, northeast Africa, and as one showed West African, and northwest Africa. I think this is a reasonable dispersal hypothesis.

 

[The alchemist]

Either way, that guy shouldn't feel any less Cushitic because although he most likely came from a Chado-Berber type proto stage speech group or something dead and related (Afro-Asiatic branch), he would have come in the Neolithic times and mixed with Cushites. What I am saying is that that guy is Cushitic and definitely came with the Eastern Cushitic speakers, most likely proto-Somali.

 

[truenature]

have you guys ever seen a person from chad or the nilo-Sahara in real life?? that’s so weird

 

[The alchemist]

have you guys ever seen a person from chad or the nilo-Sahara in real life?? that’s so weird

This is 9,000 years ago... those samples mentioned were not Nilo-Saharan. You have Saharan groups that absorbed those groups later. Like people from the Tibesti mountains such as Toubou, are a mix of those old groups in question and early Nilo-Saharan people in the Chadian region.

 

[Step a side]

There are two Geri Koombe and Aw Qudub (sheekhaal) that get this lineage too. The fact that this Somali is from Ethiopia indicates he is most definitely from Harage and most likely a descendant from North African sheikhs and traders that reached Ifat/Adal.

 

[The alchemist]

There are two Geri Koombe and Aw Qudub (sheekhaal) that get this lineage too. The fact that this Somali is from Ethiopia indicates he is most definitely from Harage and most likely a descendant from North African sheikhs and traders that reached Ifat/Adal.

I don't have that data yet, so I assume this until that has been confirmed. I know people from the Shekhaal often got North African-derived lineages but this piqued my interest because of the ancient implication. Even if he is of medieval trader or sheikh, my theory is still correct in its ultimate source.

 

[Step a side]

I don't have that data yet, so I assume this until that has been confirmed. I know people from the Shekhaal often got North African-derived lineages but this piqued my interest because of the ancient implication. Even if he is of medieval trader or sheikh, my theory is still correct in its ultimate source.

Here is the Geri with similar lineage. There are few more of these E-M81 Hararge guys on 23&me.

E-A683 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[Cush]

Responding to this highly interesting post by @Reformed J, I will have to post what I think about it:

That Somali could have a direct Chado-Berber node ancestry.

My assumption is movement from the Libyan-Chad region by people into northeast Africa Nile-Valley by people who resembled the first Abstract on @Cognitive's thread.

I think a strong contender is a Kiffian-type migration, related to those 6-foot-plus-statured groups that lived contemporaneously as that TMCRA age. The material objects on the sites were Dotted Wavy Line pottery, very characteristic of a north and Sudanic type pottery, and utilizing harpoons -- these were attributes common among the hunter-fisher Sudanic peoples that subsisted on aquatic resources prior to pastoralism/agriculture. This pottery inside the Sahara (west of modern Sudan) was demic with the cultural horizon, but it's hard to say how the initial introduction of the Dotted Wavy Line (oldest in Sahara, but Wavy Line, a separate pottery type in the Nile Valley was likely the source of all these pottery traditions as it has an older dating and assumed as origin by the experts) transitioned from the Sudanic region into the Saharan region. I think a mix of cultural diffusion and demic diffusion.

Now, you had this Dotted Wavy Line phase all over the Saharan-Sahel region during the Green period, showing itself in the immediate vicinity of Takarkori by that Southwestern Libyan Uan Muhuggiag mummified child (probably the forerunner practice to the Egyptian mummification), some two thousand years after the samples on the abstract. Evidence points to that the people of Takarkori had the same pottery. These groups who had basal N1 mtDNA morphologically looked similar to the groups in Gobero.

The conclusion is, that this guy's Y-DNA originated from these types of people, the Takarkori samples will cover the genetics of the Gobero and the Somali in question's ancestor's autosomal makeup. Further what this means is that those kinds of people moved into the Nile Valley. The fact that they had the same pottery and marine-based specialization means they had contact with the early people of the Nile Valley. I'm not sure if this facilitated genetic exchange by any of these groups at first but we see the results of this amongst the Saharans today.

The pottery came from the Nile Valley, and when you see the earliest appearance in the region of the Takakori samples, it sort of coincides with the TMRCA of the haplogroup you showed:

What we have is highly mobile people that enjoyed the Green Sahara places until things turned extremely hot and dry, so they scattered into major places with consistent resources or refugia spots within the deserts, and some of them went towards the margins, northeast Africa, and as one showed West African, and northwest Africa. I think this is a reasonable dispersal hypothesis.

Bro said hunter gatherers, nigga a Somali man who had 5 kids in 900 AD had 8 million descendants, and your telling me these hunter gatherers came and become 0.00000005% of Somalis and they came that long ago
Clearly they are traders from fellow Muslim countries who came as Sheikhs or traders as Harar was a metropolis, and of course wouldn't be central to a single culture or people
Just 1 Arab sub sub sub clan will have over 46 haplogroups, you think the Somalis won't as well? Why do you think we don't have people saying I'm descended from an Oromo or Turkish immigrant, because they'd be outcasted, no verifiable clan or lineage to link them, and so they would be accepted by the people they settle with and get absorbed

 

[The alchemist]

Here is the Geri with similar lineage. There are few more of these E-M81 Hararge guys on 23&me.

E-A683 YTree

www.yfull.com

Not on the same clade. Again, let's not repeat ourselves. It wastes space.

 

[Cush]

Not on the same clade. Again, let's not repeat ourselves. It wastes space.

If these were all ancient hunter gatherers they'd fall under a single recent lineage, clearly not because they are random, thus Sheikhs who came from all over North Africa
ANOTHER REASON A LOT OF SOMALIS HAVE 15-20% NORTH AFRICAN

 

[The alchemist]

Bro said hunter gatherers, nigga a Somali man who had 5 kids in 900 AD had 8 million descendants, and your telling me these hunter gatherers came and become 0.00000005% of Somalis and they came that long ago
Clearly they are traders from fellow Muslim countries who came as Sheikhs or traders as Harar was a metropolis, and of course wouldn't be central to a single culture or people
Just 1 Arab sub sub sub clan will have over 46 haplogroups, you think the Somalis won't as well? Why do you think we don't have people saying I'm descended from an Oromo or Turkish immigrant, because they'd be outcasted, no verifiable clan or lineage to link them, and so they would be accepted by the people they settle with and get absorbed

You're an ignorant fellow. Clearly, things are not sampled and distributions of clades can be extremely variational. You don't even see much of it in North Africa, where it roughly comes from...

 

[Cush]

You're an ignorant fellow. Clearly, things are not sampled and distributions of clades can be extremely variational. You don't even see much of it in North Africa, where it roughly comes from...

Ignorant? Nigga you're one one claiming 100s-1000s of hunter gatherers arrived in the horn and had kids there, that would mean they'd have extensive territory and huge population
As I said Harar was a centre of Islam for Eastern Africa, it had excellent infrastructure in the past and was huge, and thus it naturally attracted merchants and Sheikhs for trade

 

[The alchemist]

If these were all ancient hunter gatherers they'd fall under a single recent lineage, clearly not because they are random, thus Sheikhs who came from all over North Africa
ANOTHER REASON A LOT OF SOMALIS HAVE 15-20% NORTH AFRICAN

You have to factor in differential mutation rates and lack of sampling... It goes back to a hunter-gatherer age but it does not mean time stopped since then... Some of the samples I quoted from the text from had a basal N1 haplogroup, that does not mean many people had that basal form nor does it mean that time stopped 40+ thousand years. There are many people with rare haplogroups if you did not know.

 

[The alchemist]

Ignorant? Nigga you're one one claiming 100s-1000s of hunter gatherers arrived in the horn and had kids there, that would mean they'd have extensive territory and huge population
As I said Harar was a centre of Islam for Eastern Africa, it had excellent infrastructure in the past and was huge, and thus it naturally attracted merchants and Sheikhs for trade

Get out of the thread. You lowered the intelligence by a billion.

 

[The alchemist]

I can't ever make a thread with some people just engaging with basic sensible takes. The guy above talks as if rare haplogroups and basal forms don't exist.

 

[Cush]

I can't ever make a thread with some people just engaging with basic sensible takes. The guy above talks as if rare haplogroups and basal forms don't exist.

If it arrived during the hunter gatherer period, it would still have a contingent of Somalis, however it doesn't even constitute 1%, a man in the mediaeval times today had can have over 200,000 descendants, if even 1 survived from this basal group they'd at least be 500,000

 

[Step a side]

Not on the same clade. Again, let's not repeat ourselves. It wastes space.

Your theory is plausible but my theory is more reasonable. They carry different versions of E-M81 because they were brought to the Horn by different migrants from across the Mediterranean world. We have seen countless of E-M81 lineages from the same general region (Harar). If it came with the proto Cushitic tribes then surely we would have seen at least some traces of this same subclade in Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya etc

If you look carefully at the entire list you will notice geographically the Somali flag is the odd one on the list. This indicates recent arrival.

E-PF2438 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[The alchemist]

If it arrived during the hunter gatherer period, it would still have a contingent of Somalis, however it doesn't even constitute 1%, a man in the mediaeval times today had can have over 200,000 descendants, if even 1 survived from this basal group they'd at least be 500,000

Who said it arrived in the hunter-gatherer age? No one said that. The TMCRA had a hunter-gatherer age...

With all due respect, go back to your thread, man. Read on the archeology of medieval northern Somali coast.

 

[The alchemist]

Your theory is plausible but my theory is more reasonable. They carry different versions of E-M81 because they were brought to the Horn by different migrants from across the Mediterranean world. We have seen countless of E-M81 lineages from the same general region (Harar). If it came with the proto Cushitic tribes then surely we would have seen at least some traces of this same subclade in Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya etc

If you look carefully at the entire list you will notice geographically the Somali flag is the odd one on the list. This indicates recent arrival.

E-PF2438 YTree

www.yfull.com

Maybe, maybe not. Again, this is the final time I tell you that this is a pointless discussion for the reason I already explained. And it does not invalidate the older point, regardless, as I already told you.

Now go back to the haplogroup business you're stressing with.

By the way, if you paid attention to what I wrote about the Green Sahara dispersion during the intense desiccation, you would get insight that it would not be the odd one out. This is how I know some posters don't even read my take. Quick to scribble scrabble text but not actual engagement or anything adding to the conversation. It's a routine nowadays.

 

[Cush]

Your theory is plausible but my theory is more reasonable. They carry different versions of E-M81 because they were brought to the Horn by different migrants from across the Mediterranean world. We have seen countless of E-M81 lineages from the same general region (Harar). If it came with the proto Cushitic tribes then surely we would have seen at least some traces of this same subclade in Sudan, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya etc

If you look carefully at the entire list you will notice geographically the Somali flag is the odd one on the list. This indicates recent arrival.

E-PF2438 YTree

www.yfull.com

Exactly