The fall of Siad Barre (written by mokillem)

[Rageedi_18]

You are thinking to emotional.SNM couldn't have taken the whole of Somalia without entering disastrous wars, furthermore just like most post dictatorial societies civil war occurred between varying factions.

Note also the SNM didn't free Somalia and it wasn't them who caused the downfall of Siad Barre.Rather they were a simply a party to the civil war after Siad Barre fell.

I didn't say they could take somalia. They wanted nothing to do with it. Who wants that shithole. That wasn't what they was fighting for. It was a fight for survival and to stop genocide.

But they could've got a lot of revenge on a lot of people. That's my point. They spared a lot of lives who supported afweyne. Obviously if they did go that route there would've been even more meyham. They decided their people had been through enough.

I don't really give a f*ck about somalia. Snm wasn't tryna 'free somalia' they was trying to free themselves from her. How the heck can you free your oppressor who's trying to wipe you off the map.

 

[CangeeroBear]

I didn't say they could take somalia. They wanted nothing to do with it. Who wants that shithole. That wasn't what they was fighting for. It was a fight for survival and to stop genocide.

But they could've got a lot revenge on a lot of people. That's my point. They spared a lot of lives who supported afweyne. Obviously if they did go that route there would've been even more meyham. They decided their people had been through enough.

I don't really give a f*ck about somalia. Snm wasn't tryna 'free somalia' they was trying to free themselves from her. How the heck can you free your oppressor who's trying to wipe you off the map.

You are obviously too emotionally invested in this and thus I wont bother pointing your lapses of judgement. A lot of my cousins are from Hargeisa but I try to look at the system outside of the box.

I am always for constructive dialogue sxb, but in my opinion Somalis are not mature enough in discussing these topics across clan lines without implicit bias or without being triggered. If we can look at it from historical point of view and learn from all the mistakes, am all for it however if the end result is more qabyaalad, then it’s better left alone.

This is another ignorant statement. Humans as a whole are emotional but with proof and logic we can change their whole political view.Stating that "we should ignore the problems because we aren't mature enough" is akin to letting your life boat drown because you aren't a carpenter.Everyone is emotional and that destroys the chance of a effective critiscism of history, you for instance state you are "nice" which is using emotional biased sunglasses when engaging in politics.

 

[Generalissimo]

Very bad idea. China,Rwanda and Singapore are exceptions not the norm.I firmly believe democracy even a quasi democracy is better than dictatorship.China's populace are ranked 101st in the UN human development and wont be a world power anytime soon with such a centralised corrupt military.Its a myth that china defies the demise of dictatorships it has simply supported certain regions and played them against others.I will agree they are awesome when compared to other autocracies but they don't invest in their people but , not surprisingly, instead invest in the communist parties power and survival.

China is simply a factory nation, with conditions in factories naseuting this is far from an ideal state.Furthermore Somalia wouldn't have the man power to create such a factory nation system which needs a lot of workers in a short time... the chinese population is 100 times the somali population.

A democratic state will change Somalia into a regional power.I will write more about this sometime next week.

Well if Singapore, Rwanda and South Korea (under Park Chung-Hee) are exceptions, why can't Somalia also be one of these benevolent dictatorships? Surely you must agree with me that a benevolent dictatorship is the most effective form of government. The thing with a democracy is that is usually produced mediocre leaders and governments while dictatorships mostly produce sub mediocre leaders. If we are strictly talking about a hypothetical scenario what would you prefer then? A Somali benevolent one party autocracy or a democracy?

China might be a factor nation but don't forget that they are currently in a transition period where they are moving towards an innovation economy. The global leaders in renewable energy and green energy is currently China and that is just going to increase in the coming decade. We are talking about the greatest economic super power in the year 2040 sxb. The only nation in human history which has managed to lift 800 million people who were in a direr state than the poorest somalis today.

I was listening to a talk by Bill Gates where he compared the development of China and democratic India. Both were in the same state in 1949 but today the average indian lives 10 years shorter than the average chinese person. And the Chinese economy is 5 times bigger than the Indian economy. And the main difference between them is that China experienced a single government with a 50-year plan while India under the same period underwent 12 different governments who ranged from everything between socialistic and capitalistic.

Curios to hear your thoughts regarding how a democratic state will change Somalia into a regional power

 

[CangeeroBear]

Well if Singapore, Rwanda and South Korea (under Park Chung-Hee) are exceptions, why can't Somalia also be one of these benevolent dictatorships? Surely you must agree with me that a benevolent dictatorship is the most effective form of government. The thing with a democracy is that is usually produced mediocre leaders and governments while dictatorships mostly produce sub mediocre leaders. If we are strictly talking about a hypothetical scenario what would you prefer then? A Somali benevolent one party autocracy or a democracy?

China might be a factor nation but don't forget that they are currently in a transition period where they are moving towards an innovation economy. The global leaders in renewable energy and green energy is currently China and that is just going to increase in the coming decade. We are talking about the greatest economic super power in the year 2040 sxb. The only nation in human history which has managed to lift 800 million people who were in a direr state than the poorest somalis today.

I was listening to a talk by Bill Gates where he compared the development of China and democratic India. Both were in the same state in 1949 but today the average indian lives 10 years shorter than the average chinese person. And the Chinese economy is 5 times bigger than the Indian economy. And the main difference between them is that China experienced a single government with a 50-year plan while India under the same period underwent 12 different governments who ranged from everything between socialistic and capitalistic.

Curios to hear your thoughts regarding how a democratic state will change Somalia into a regional power

Its pretty late over here in Australia, I will reply with a skeleton version of my next article on how democracy will rapidly change Somalia and the lack of it has caused the current lapse in a stable government.Right now I'm dead tired

 

[Rageedi_18]

Nice revision of history sxb, but I'ts an open fact that the Derg was supporting SNM by 1988 with logistics and weapons. No one is denying the fact that the government was brutal in its response to the SNM in the north but lets not distort facts and mix them with feelings.



http://memory.loc.gov/frd/etsave/et_04_08.html

Are you seriously trying to compare geeljires in macawiis, with max 10 rounds in their Kalashnikov, fighting tanks in arid semi-desert terrain to other groups with much more sophistication, favourable terrain, way more resources and support from 'superpowers'.

SNM are p4p greatest freedom fighters of all time. Bar none!

 

[Generalissimo]

Are you seriously trying to compare geeljires in macawiis, with max 10 rounds in their Kalashnikov, fighting tanks in arid semi-desert terrain to other groups with much more sophistication, favourable terrain, way more resources and support from 'superpowers'.

SNM our p4p greatest freedom fighters of all time. Bar none!

Walaal you are too emotionally invested in this issue, you are not seeing it objectively. Just know that we are all fellow somalis at the end and no one is better than the other.

 

[antonio]

Some people say WSLF are the greatest freedom fighters of the world.

 

[Bahal]

Ignorant statement... if we don't learn from history we will just fail again.Why did Siad Barre fall? article will help us overthrow future dictators..

Cause that worked out so well

 

[Generalissimo]

Cause that worked out so well

Based Bahal
Bless us ciyaal with some historical knowledge

We will name a street after Based Bahal in the capital after the successful Kacaan 2.0

 

[Automaton]

Well if Singapore, Rwanda and South Korea (under Park Chung-Hee) are exceptions, why can't Somalia also be one of these benevolent dictatorships? Surely you must agree with me that a benevolent dictatorship is the most effective form of government. The thing with a democracy is that is usually produced mediocre leaders and governments while dictatorships mostly produce sub mediocre leaders. If we are strictly talking about a hypothetical scenario what would you prefer then? A Somali benevolent one party autocracy or a democracy?

China might be a factor nation but don't forget that they are currently in a transition period where they are moving towards an innovation economy. The global leaders in renewable energy and green energy is currently China and that is just going to increase in the coming decade. We are talking about the greatest economic super power in the year 2040 sxb. The only nation in human history which has managed to lift 800 million people who were in a direr state than the poorest somalis today.

I was listening to a talk by Bill Gates where he compared the development of China and democratic India. Both were in the same state in 1949 but today the average indian lives 10 years shorter than the average chinese person. And the Chinese economy is 5 times bigger than the Indian economy. And the main difference between them is that China experienced a single government with a 50-year plan while India under the same period underwent 12 different governments who ranged from everything between socialistic and capitalistic.

Curios to hear your thoughts regarding how a democratic state will change Somalia into a regional power

I agree with you on this issue. Somalia doesn't need a democracy right now. I say this because a democratic system needs to develop over time organically, and it also requires a large middle class that can hold the government accountable. Thus we need an autocratic regime with a benevolent dictator at the helm. This paternalistic government will focus mainly on developing the economy and establishing rule and order and then eventually when Somalia grows and becomes economically vibrant; citizens will now be ready for democracy. In short, Somalia doesn't need democracy and foolish motions; she needs food and water. Amen

 

[Xooshdheere]

SNM didn't want all of somalia. They just wanted to free their land. Wallah they could have kept going for revenge and slaughtered all those who helped afweyne but they stopped and decided it was better to have peace. Stop tryna rewrite history.

They wanted to save their people from genocide and free their land. It wasn't a conventional civil war. It wasn't a war over ideas. It was a fight for survival. A tyrant seeking to wipe a small group of people from the map. And he turned all the clans against them to try achieve it.

lay off the khat sxb, and be less emotional and come back with real arguments.


Read the old SNM literature, there is absolutely no hint of separatism/ this "Somaliland" xaadh. They stood (or claimed to stand) on a platform of Somali Nationalism and establishing a legitimate government to replace the Kacaan, hence "Somali National Movement".

but you are too inept and emotional to argue with facts, you are basically saying:
"lets blame all civilians because of the sins of the former authorian government".

you might as well kill all somaliland politicians, they all worked for MSB , also SNM is a terrorist group.

 

[Bahal]

Based Bahal
Bless us ciyaal with some historical knowledge

We will name a street after Based Bahal in the capital after the successful Kacaan 2.0

Muh Siad is the muh white man of Somalia.

Blame everything on him, get rid of him, and then go full Detroit.

 

[Generalissimo]

Muh Siad is the muh white man of Somalia.

Blame everything on him, get rid of him, and then go full Detroit.

How would you eradicate qabilism in Somalia if you think that's even possible within our lifetimes?

 

[Bahal]

How would you eradicate qabilism in Somalia if you think that's even possible within our lifetimes?

Economic development.

Qabiil is a product of an impoverished society to ensure access to extremely scarce resources. Everything else is built upon that simple fact.

If you can put food on the table, put your kids in school, have an opportunity for upward social mobility, and don't have to worry about being murdered in a clan war, qabiil suddenly loses its importance.

All the oil rich Gulf states were not too dissimilar from Somalis a few decades ago. In contrast, poor Yemen still has a very important clan system.

 

[Generalissimo]

Economic development.

Qabiil is a product of an impoverished society to ensure access to extremely scarce resources. Everything else is built upon that simple fact.

If you can put food on the table, put your kids in school, have an opportunity for upward social mobility, and don't have to worry about being murdered in a clan war, qabiil suddenly loses its importance.

All the oil rich Gulf states were not too dissimilar from Somalis a few decades ago. In contrast, poor Yemen still has a very important clan system.

Agree with you 100% in what you wrote sxb, couldn’t have said it better! But I feel that mostly applies to the masses since shacabka are the ones who are impoverished in Somalia.

But there are those who thrive and profit from the chaos and violence that are the product of qabyaalad in Somalia. And these persons/groups are not going to want to give up the power and privilege that they gain from promoting division and shortsighted tribalism.

How would you manage these people and groups? Sometimes I feel that Somalia would be in a better position in the long term if a cultural revolution/purge happened where all the old odayaal and qabilists were taken of and put aside. Basically a replay of the Chinese cultural revolution...

 

[Haji]

Interesting that you put up china as a model of a good centralized government, but china isn't really as centralized as you think.

They give numerous regions autonomy, like macau, hong-kong and inner mongolia.

Personally, I would never want to live in a country like china where they ban the internet and monitor all you conversations.

I think somalia would be better off if they let every region secede on it's own and then co-operate economically, and each region voluntarilly agree to defense treaties and whatnot.

 

[Generalissimo]

Interesting that you put up china as a model of a good centralized government, but china isn't really as centralized as you think.

They give numerous regions autonomy, like macau, hong-kong and inner mongolia.

Personally, I would never want to live in a country like china where they ban the internet and monitor all you conversations.

I think somalia would be better off if they let every region secede on it's own and then co-operate economically, and each region voluntarilly agree to defense treaties and whatnot.

As if that’s exclusive to China sxb, you don’t think most modern nations monitor their citizens?

 

[Bahal]

Agree with you 100% in what you wrote sxb, couldn’t have said it better! But I feel that mostly applies to the masses since shacabka are the ones who are impoverished in Somalia.

But there are those who thrive and profit from the chaos and violence that are the product of qabyaalad in Somalia. And these persons/groups are not going to want to give up the power and privilege that they gain from promoting division and shortsighted tribalism.

How would you manage these people and groups? Sometimes I feel that Somalia would be in a better position in the long term if a cultural revolution/purge happened where all the old odayaal and qabilists were taken of and put aside. Basically a replay of the Chinese cultural revolution...

Of course.

There are people who have amassed vast amounts of wealth and power that they otherwise could not have in a society under the rule of law.

They cant survive in any other society and therefore use their ill gotten wealth and influence to ensure the status quo remains.

They must be killed.

As for your other point, our culture needs a serious facelift. Qabiil collectivism impedes justice, and leads to a situation where the concept of personal responsibility doesn't exist.

Kill someone, and the qabiil will pay. The government arrests you for treason, your qabiil will protest on your behalf. It's absurd and fundamentally incompatible to the development of a modern society.

 

[Generalissimo]

Of course.

There are people who have amassed vast amounts of wealth and power that they otherwise could not have in a society under the rule of law.

They cant survive in any other society and therefore use their ill gotten wealth and influence to ensure the status quo remains.

They must be killed.

As for your other point, our culture needs a serious facelift. Qabiil collectivism impedes justice, and leads to a situation where the concept of personal responsibility doesn't exist.

Kill someone, and the qabiil will pay. The government arrests you for treason, your qabiil will protest on your behalf. It's absurd and fundamentally incompatible to the development of a modern society.

You and @jugjugwacwac are both walking encyclopedias of wisdom

Do you have hope in the current SFG or do you think all these federalism talk is just a band-aid/duct tape solution to avoid the total collapse of the Somali state? What do hope happens in the coming 10-15 years in Somalia?