The dangers of censoring islam's critics in islamic societies

[xiin-finiin]

The dangers of censoring Islamic critics in Islamic societies is that, if they are censored, there is a risk of transforming the entire place into an echo chamber. Even though I believe Islam is right, it is still crucial that it is constantly challenged. Otherwise, the whole population will not engage in critical thinking and may simply adhere to Islam because their parents are Muslims. It was through people challenging Islam that we achieved significant advancements, such as the field of Kalam, for example. Therefore, in my opinion, the population should always be exposed to a certain level of criticism (chatgpt helped make this). So, what do you think? is this too extreme? any other solution?

 

[Omar del Sur]

Omar del ChatGPT:

"
The marketplace of ideas is a widely popular concept that is often hailed as the cornerstone of free speech and democracy. The idea implies that people are free to express themselves and ideas will be judged on their merit and eventually the best ones will win out against the worst ones. However, this concept is fundamentally flawed in its application because it presupposes that people are capable of rational thought and not swayed by emotions, biases, and prejudices. Unfortunately, many people are foolish, and this undermines the very foundation of the marketplace of ideas.

The marketplace of ideas operates under the assumption that reason and logic will prevail over ignorance and irrationality. However, history has shown us that this is not always the case. Individuals and groups often cling to ideas that have been proven wrong, often to the detriment of society. Furthermore, people are often swayed by emotions, prejudices, and biases in their decision-making processes. Facts and evidence alone are often not enough to sway individuals who are married to certain ideas, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

In addition, the marketplace of ideas is often dominated by those who have the loudest voices or the largest platforms. Wealthy individuals, corporations, and governments have the means to propagate their ideas and silence dissent. This gives some individuals and groups an unfair advantage over others, leading to an unequal marketplace of ideas that is unconducive to the free exchange of ideas.

In conclusion, the marketplace of ideas is a flawed concept because it rests on the premise that people are rational, logical beings that can be persuaded by reason and evidence. Unfortunately, people are often driven by emotions, biases, prejudices, and other factors that make them susceptible to fallacious reasoning. Additionally, not all ideas are created equal, and some are better at attracting support than others. These fundamental shortcomings highlight the need for checks and balances that ensure the free exchange of ideas while protecting individuals and society from harmful or ill-informed ideas."

 

[Omar del Sur]

"The marketplace of ideas operates under the assumption that reason and logic will prevail over ignorance and irrationality."

I like this a lot and I am very much with this line of criticism.... the reality is.... many, many people are... not very bright... and so what appeals to them are not necessarily the best or most correct ideas and so the ideal thing would be to shield them from certain ideas... not for any sinister reason but to protect the society against falling under the influence of wrong ideas that could potentially seriously harm the society

also another thing and the AI didn't mention this... yes, there is the aspect of wealthy people having more of a voice since they can buy media but also.... look how democratic elections work... a candidate could be more popular just because he is handsome.... there is all kinds of problems with just trusting the will and/or reasoning ability of the people... you could have some terrible person with horrible ideas who gets listened to because he appeals to the people- maybe he's more charistmatic, maybe he appeals to their lowest instincts... while the one who is actually right is much less popular... no way should a Muslim society tolerate criticism of Islam... it should be off limits

 

[Omar del Sur]

also, from Sheikh Ibn Baz:

Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Baz, may God have mercy on him, was asked:

Is it permissible for there to be what is called “freedom of opinion”, that is, to open the way for good people and evil people, each of them expressing his role in society? .

He replied:

This is falsehood and has no basis in Islam. Rather, falsehood must be prevented and the truth allowed, and it is not permissible to allow anyone who calls to communism or paganism, or calls to fornication, gambling, or anything else, whether directly or indirectly. Rather, it is forbidden and disciplined. In fact, this is the “forbidden ography.” End.

https://islamqa.info/ar/answers/137130/حكم-ما-يسمى-بـ-حرية-الكلام-و-حرية-الراي
"

 

[xiin-finiin]

"The marketplace of ideas operates under the assumption that reason and logic will prevail over ignorance and irrationality."

I like this a lot and I am very much with this line of criticism.... the reality is.... many, many people are... not very bright... and so what appeals to them are not necessarily the best or most correct ideas and so the ideal thing would be to shield them from certain ideas... not for any sinister reason but to protect the society against falling under the influence of wrong ideas that could potentially seriously harm the society

also another thing and the AI didn't mention this... yes, there is the aspect of wealthy people having more of a voice since they can buy media but also.... look how democratic elections work... a candidate could be more popular just because he is handsome.... there is all kinds of problems with just trusting the will and/or reasoning ability of the people... you could have some terrible person with horrible ideas who gets listened to because he appeals to the people- maybe he's more charistmatic, maybe he appeals to their lowest instincts... while the one who is actually right is much less popular... no way should a Muslim society tolerate criticism of Islam... it should be off limits

this makes sense. kinda sad tho. i feel like at least he smart ones should be exposed to criticisms

 

[NordicSomali]

There have always been critics of Islam or any religion.

 

[Omar del Sur]

this makes sense. kinda sad tho. i feel like at least he smart ones should be exposed to criticisms

there already are Muslims who refute shubuhat.

for example there is this book where the author responds to secularists

Secularism is the Plague of the Age by Sami Amiri

Secularism is the Plague of the Age by Sami Amiri - العالمانية طاعون العصر - سامي عامري

www.sifatusafwa.com

there are a number of books like this where they are responding to doubts brought by the kuffar. I think it would be crazy to let someone like Richard Dawkins come to a Muslim country and give a lecture. but what could be done is there could be some knowledgeable Muslims who take his books and they could quote word for word.... "these are his exact words".... and then they could refute what he says and show his arguments all fall apart and are garbage.

I think this book already does that

Understanding Modern Atheism and its Mechanisms

Understanding Modern Atheism and its Mechanisms - ميليشيا الإلحاد - عبد الله صالح العجيري

www.sifatusafwa.com

so this kind of thing is something that is out there. anyone can pick up books like that, study them, learn about the weaknesses of the enemies' arguments and strengthen their imaan like that. and people can write books like that or maybe do videos like that but the first thing is they need to acquire a deep grounding in Islamic knowledge.

 

[Celery]

This is like you going to Walmart and telling people to shop at target or some other place. Walmart can allow your free speech but then lose business

 

[xiin-finiin]

There have always been critics of Islam or any religion.

in islamic societies though? i don't think there is many in somalia for example, or somali galbeed. only place you get critics is multicultural places.

 

[AMusee]

Of course @xiin-finiin you would promote blasphemy as you are not a Muslim

You self-identify as a moral relativist, an atheist pretty much and all of your posts are about your distorted views.

The laws and Islam are set in stone, non-muslims rambling and anger about it has never and will change that.

 

[NordicSomali]

in islamic societies though? i don't think there is many in somalia for example, or somali galbeed. only place you get critics is multicultural places.

The salafists are the greatest critics of traditional Islam.

 

[xiin-finiin]

The salafists are the greatest critics of traditional Islam.

salafis criticize islam within the framework of islam. So their criticisms include lots of hadith, quran, etc (so, the criticisms happen within islam itself). What i meant by muslim critics, is people that criticize the fundamental tenets of islam. Like for example, if the prophet (saw) was an actual prophet, if islam is the true religion, if God exists, etc. Questions like these, will force people to reflect. but like the other commenter said, most people will probably not be able to handle this.

 

[xiin-finiin]

Of course @xiin-finiin you would promote blasphemy as you are not a Muslim

You self-identify as a moral relativist, an atheist pretty much and all of your posts are about your distorted views.

The laws and Islam are set in stone, non-muslims rambling and anger about it has never and will change that.

it's because of people like you that people are scared of shariah.

 

[The alchemist]

If you are a believer, then it makes sense to criticize everything but Islam through the lens of Islam. This idea that criticizing religion elevates you is what liberals think. It reduces religiosity and increases self-worship of the human intellect thinking one's individual hubris is elevated and more capable than what Allah sent. Why do I say this? If you check the definition of the word "criticism" you will find that one only criticizes if you assume there are faults. While in Islam, you cannot sustain your deen thinking there are flaws in the deen The Creator sent to us, and that you somehow through "facts and logic," or self-righteous independent reason and human error-prone and conditioned thinking (extrapolated views, like how believing criticism for criticism sake is a virtue that leads to improvement), can give a critical review of the Quran, as an example. Islam tells us how we should view Islam, equipped with the best tool to make sure some guy doesn't come and flips things on their head and calls it "truth." Your question pretends as if Islam hasn't stood firmly through countless enemies, which still exist since The Prophet (PBUH) was sent the Quran, which constantly threw their unfounded criticism, with nothing ever sticking.

No one has denied people of not having questions. If you are ignorant about something there are knowledgeable people that can answer your questions. Islam never denied people this basic process. And don't pretend it was so. Another thing I want to push back on strongly is that your question assumes that Islam is censorial from a weak position and that people are afraid of criticism because it will expose weaknesses that some extrapolated ideological view can give you a superior platform to examine it. We have plenty of people that do that constantly; are their approaches what Muslims have to adopt?

This "we need to be able to criticize Islam" has always come from the enemies of Islam or friends of those enemies that openly wants reforms on heretical dispositions or straight-up people who claim to believe but are outside the fold due to contradictory view they hold, trying to appease the enemies of Islam and to gain acceptance (social prestige in the hierarchy or social and economic gain) and favor from those that want to weaken Islam and reduce its presence by spreading their seeds of corruption among its believers.

It is interesting how none of this deals with the deen itself and how to become a better Muslim, aspects that can never come from outside Islam. And you mentioned why people are scared of Sharia. The reason is simple, those people are ignorant. They haven't educated themselves. Are we going to get criticism from ignorant people now, too? Who are these people that are on elevated platforms thinking they can correct the deen? I always see Muslims that make these types of ignorant claims to be the ones that advocate a push toward the West. Those individuals claim Islam needs reforms, and then they have these liberal ideals placed as a standard, subservient to the paradigm of Western civilization.

 

[AMusee]

If you are a believer, then it makes sense to criticize everything but Islam through the lens of Islam. This idea that criticizing religion elevates you is what liberals think. It reduces religiosity and increases self-worship of the human intellect thinking one's individual hubris is elevated and more capable than what Allah sent. Why do I say this? If you check the definition of the word "criticism" you will find that one only criticizes if you assume there are faults. While in Islam, you cannot sustain your deen thinking there are flaws in the deen The Creator sent to us, and that you somehow through "facts and logic," or self-righteous independent reason and human error-prone and conditioned thinking (extrapolated views, like how believing criticism for criticism sake is a virtue that leads to improvement), can give a critical review of the Quran, as an example. Islam tells us how we should view Islam, equipped with the best tool to make sure some guy doesn't come and flips things on their head and calls it "truth." Your question pretends as if Islam hasn't stood firmly through countless enemies, which still exist since The Prophet (PBUH) was sent the Quran, which constantly threw their unfounded criticism, with nothing ever sticking.

No one has denied people of not having questions. If you are ignorant about something there are knowledgeable people that can answer your questions. Islam never denied people this basic process. And don't pretend it was so. Another thing I want to push back on strongly is that your question assumes that Islam is censorial from a weak position and that people are afraid of criticism because it will expose weaknesses that some extrapolated ideological view can give you a superior platform to examine it. We have plenty of people that do that constantly; are their approaches what Muslims have to adopt?

This "we need to be able to criticize Islam" has always come from the enemies of Islam or friends of those enemies that openly wants reforms on heretical dispositions or straight-up people who claim to believe but are outside the fold due to contradictory view they hold, trying to appease the enemies of Islam and to gain acceptance (social prestige in the hierarchy or social and economic gain) and favor from those that want to weaken Islam and reduce its presence by spreading their seeds of corruption among its believers.

It is interesting how none of this deals with the deen itself and how to become a better Muslim, aspects that can never come from outside Islam. And you mentioned why people are scared of Sharia. The reason is simple, those people are ignorant. They haven't educated themselves. Are we going to get criticism from ignorant people now, too? Who are these people that are on elevated platforms thinking they can correct the deen? I always see Muslims that make these types of ignorant claims to be the ones that advocate a push toward the West. Those individuals claim Islam needs reforms, and then they have these liberal ideals placed as a standard, subservient to the paradigm of Western civilization.

O believers! Have faith in Allah, His Messenger, the Book He has revealed to His Messenger, and the Scriptures He revealed before. Indeed, whoever denies Allah, His angels, His Books, His messengers, and the Last Day has clearly gone far astray.

Indeed, those who believed then disbelieved, then believed and again disbelieved—˹only˺ increasing in disbelief—Allah will neither forgive them nor guide them to the ˹Right˺ Way.

Give good news of a painful punishment to hypocrites,

who choose disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Do they seek honour and power through that company? Surely all honour and power belongs to Allah.

He has already revealed to you in the Book that when you hear Allah’s revelations being denied or ridiculed, then do not sit in that company unless they engage in a different topic, or else you will be like them. Surely Allah will gather the hypocrites and disbelievers all together in Hell.

˹The hypocrites are˺ those who wait to see what happens to you. So if Allah grants you victory, they say ˹to you˺, “Were we not on your side?” But if the disbelievers have a share ˹of victory˺, they say ˹to them˺, “Did we not have the advantage over you, yet we protected you from the believers?” Allah will judge between ˹all of˺ you on the Day of Judgment. And Allah will never grant the disbelievers a way over the believers.

Surely the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but He outwits them. When they stand up for prayer, they do it half-heartedly only to be seen by people—hardly remembering Allah at all.

Torn between belief and disbelief—belonging neither to these ˹believers˺ nor those ˹disbelievers˺. And whoever Allah leaves to stray, you will never find for them a way.

O believers! Do not take disbelievers as allies instead of the believers. Would you like to give Allah solid proof against yourselves?

Surely the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire—and you will never find for them any helper—

except those who repent, mend their ways, hold fast to Allah, and are sincere in their devotion to Allah; they will be with the believers. And Allah will grant the believers a great reward.

Why should Allah punish you if you are grateful and faithful? Allah is ever Appreciative, All-Knowing.

Surah An-Nisa 136-147

 

[AMusee]

The hypocrites, both men and women, are all alike: they encourage what is evil, forbid what is good, and withhold ˹what is in˺ their hands. They neglected Allah, so He neglected them. Surely the hypocrites are the rebellious.

Allah has promised the hypocrites, both men and women, and the disbelievers an everlasting stay in the Fire of Hell—it is sufficient for them. Allah has condemned them, and they will suffer a never-ending punishment.

˹You hypocrites are˺ like those ˹disbelievers˺ before you. They were far superior to you in might and more abundant in wealth and children. They enjoyed their share in this life. You have enjoyed your share, just as they did. And you have engaged in idle talk, just as they did. Their deeds have become void in this world and the Hereafter. And it is they who are the ˹true˺ losers.

Have they not received the stories of those ˹destroyed˺ before them: the people of Noah, ’Âd, and Thamûd, the people of Abraham, the residents of Midian, and the overturned cities ˹of Lot˺? Their messengers came to them with clear proofs. Allah would have never wronged them, but it was they who wronged themselves.

The believers, both men and women, are guardians of one another. They encourage good and forbid evil, establish prayer and pay alms-tax, and obey Allah and His Messenger. It is they who will be shown Allah’s mercy. Surely Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.

Allah has promised the believers, both men and women, Gardens under which rivers flow, to stay there forever, and splendid homes in the Gardens of Eternity, and—above all—the pleasure of Allah. That is ˹truly˺ the ultimate triumph.

Surah At-Tawbah 67-72

 

[xiin-finiin]

If you are a believer, then it makes sense to criticize everything but Islam through the lens of Islam. This idea that criticizing religion elevates you is what liberals think. It reduces religiosity and increases self-worship of the human intellect thinking one's individual hubris is elevated and more capable than what Allah sent. Why do I say this? If you check the definition of the word "criticism" you will find that one only criticizes if you assume there are faults. While in Islam, you cannot sustain your deen thinking there are flaws in the deen The Creator sent to us, and that you somehow through "facts and logic," or self-righteous independent reason and human error-prone and conditioned thinking (extrapolated views, like how believing criticism for criticism sake is a virtue that leads to improvement), can give a critical review of the Quran, as an example. Islam tells us how we should view Islam, equipped with the best tool to make sure some guy doesn't come and flips things on their head and calls it "truth." Your question pretends as if Islam hasn't stood firmly through countless enemies, which still exist since The Prophet (PBUH) was sent the Quran, which constantly threw their unfounded criticism, with nothing ever sticking.

No one has denied people of not having questions. If you are ignorant about something there are knowledgeable people that can answer your questions. Islam never denied people this basic process. And don't pretend it was so. Another thing I want to push back on strongly is that your question assumes that Islam is censorial from a weak position and that people are afraid of criticism because it will expose weaknesses that some extrapolated ideological view can give you a superior platform to examine it. We have plenty of people that do that constantly; are their approaches what Muslims have to adopt?

This "we need to be able to criticize Islam" has always come from the enemies of Islam or friends of those enemies that openly wants reforms on heretical dispositions or straight-up people who claim to believe but are outside the fold due to contradictory view they hold, trying to appease the enemies of Islam and to gain acceptance (social prestige in the hierarchy or social and economic gain) and favor from those that want to weaken Islam and reduce its presence by spreading their seeds of corruption among its believers.

It is interesting how none of this deals with the deen itself and how to become a better Muslim, aspects that can never come from outside Islam. And you mentioned why people are scared of Sharia. The reason is simple, those people are ignorant. They haven't educated themselves. Are we going to get criticism from ignorant people now, too? Who are these people that are on elevated platforms thinking they can correct the deen? I always see Muslims that make these types of ignorant claims to be the ones that advocate a push toward the West. Those individuals claim Islam needs reforms, and then they have these liberal ideals placed as a standard, subservient to the paradigm of Western civilization.

ok what you said makes sense, but how would you prevent the country thats being ruled with shariah to not become an echo chamber if the people aren't allowed to reflect. The reason i advocate for islamic critics is, imo, because only through criticism can muslims reflect on their religion. I for example never thought or reflected on why i was a muslim while i lived back home. I was muslim purely because my parents were muslim. This is the thing i feel most uncomfortable with. If there is a way to make people reflect without criticisms i'd like to hear that as well.

 

[xiin-finiin]

Your question pretends as if Islam hasn't stood firmly through countless enemies, which still exist since The Prophet (PBUH) was sent the Quran, which constantly threw their unfounded criticism, with nothing ever sticking.

No it doesn't. i literly mentioned kalam which was one of islam's responses to the criticisms it received. I believe in islam so much that i am not scared of people criticizing it. all am asking for is literly muslims to be muslims because they believe in islam, not because their parents are muslims. Only way i currently found is if muslims are questioned on their beliefs can they reflect.

 

[The alchemist]

ok what you said makes sense, but how would you prevent the country thats being ruled with shariah to not become an echo chamber if the people aren't allowed to reflect. The reason i advocate for islamic critics is, imo, because only through criticism can muslims reflect on their religion. I for example never thought or reflected on why i was a muslim while i lived back home. I was muslim purely because my parents were muslim. This is the thing i feel most uncomfortable with. If there is a way to make people reflect without criticisms i'd like to hear that as well.

Why do you assume Sharia is susceptible to an echo chamber? It's a comprehensive balanced system. You have a lot of Westernized assumptions.

Islam says to reflect on the deen and not be a passive Muslim. Literally what Islam tells believers to do. Why are you coming here saying we need to platform critics of Islam (a strange idea, by the way), and pretend reflection upon religion is a novel trait pressured by them, as if Islam doesn't give us the tools to deal with this?

You need to understand your religion more it seems.

 

[Hamzza]

ok what you said makes sense, but how would you prevent the country thats being ruled with shariah to not become an echo chamber if the people aren't allowed to reflect. The reason i advocate for islamic critics is, imo, because only through criticism can muslims reflect on their religion. I for example never thought or reflected on why i was a muslim while i lived back home. I was muslim purely because my parents were muslim. This is the thing i feel most uncomfortable with. If there is a way to make people reflect without criticisms i'd like to hear that as well.

Why do you want to prevent the country from becoming an echo chamber? If Abubakar ra instantly believing the story of Isra wal Miraj is an echo chamber we are happy with that. We believe Apostates should be killed because the prophet ﷺ who doesn't speak out of desire said so, and we are not allowed to question Allah's decrees for that is blasphemy and the action of Iblis. honestly, you're dodgy, get out of here with your nonsense.