The Argument from Free Will

[Muwahhid]

Akh u have to respect our ex akh okay? Don't go around throwing ad homs like a toddler hayee?

ex-Akh ah?! Brother it wasn't an ad-Hominem but rather it was a Dua against this animal.

 

[sinister]

You lot are ignoring my points completely. I have determined that a choice can only be a choice if it is avoidable meaning that I can choose not to do it. Now, if Allah has preordained for me to partake in a certain action, there is no way for me to avoid it therefore meaning that I do not have free will.

Concerning God. "God is God" is textbook example of special pleading because you deliberately ignored the aspects that do not favour your point of view and then resided to simply say that Allah is above human logic. That is special pleading.

Your first paragraph sums it up for me. I think the Islamic position is a case of trying to have your cake and eat it too. It ultimately doesn't hold water for me. If you accept this, your basically accepting you are a play thing for a completely detached creator. Why insists on a charade of existence when he already knows exactly what is going to happen and we do not have any real choice in the matter? Just to watch? All of this for some bargain struck with Ibliis? Why not just cut to the chase, or existence is entirely superfluous after all.

 

[Tramo]

how does God being omniscient preclude us having free will? u guys are adding 2+2 and getting 5

 

[Raamsade]

If Islam is true then there can be no free will in Islam. This is because Allah is Omniscient CREATOR endowed with free will Himself. Before he even creates you He knows your ultimate destiny. He could choose ONLY those destined or those destined for hell. The fact Allah chose to create someone destined for Hell means no matter what that person does he or she will not gain eternal salvation. Thus, the test on earth is rigged. It's like a school teacher who pre-assigns grades then asks the students to take the test. It doesn't really matter how well or poorly a student scored on the test as the teacher already assigned the student's grade.

 

[The_Cosmos]

how does God being omniscient preclude us having free will? u guys are adding 2+2 and getting 5

Like I have been repeating over and over. In order for a choice to be classified as a choice it must be avoidable. This means that there must be a certain level of uncertainty on which choice you which to partake before you partake in it. Allah already knows the choice I am going to make with absolute certainty therefore rendering all my other choices null. The choice he has preordained is absolutely unavoidable. If Allah has preordained for me that I will be going to heaven/hell then everything I do will inevitably lead to heaven/hell.

Many confuse not knowing your future to mean being able to decide your own future when this is simply not true. Your path exists whether you know it or not and it is written in stone. Some compare God to a teacher (Zakir Naik) but that would be a false analogy because a teacher can only predict whilst God knows with absolute certainty. I can prove a teacher wrong.

My original argument was directed towards the free will of God which is a much more open and shut case but I'm cool nonetheless.

 

[The_Cosmos]

If Islam is true then there can be no free will in Islam. This is because Allah is Omniscient CREATOR endowed with free will Himself. Before he even creates you He knows your ultimate destiny. He could choose ONLY those destined or those destined for hell. The fact Allah chose to create someone destined for Hell means no matter what that person does he or she will not gain eternal salvation. Thus, the test on earth is rigged. It's like a school teacher who pre-assigns grades then asks the students to take the test. It doesn't really matter how well or poorly a student scored on the test as the teacher already assigned the student's grade.

Great analogy!

 

[sinister]

If Islam is true then there can be no free will in Islam. This is because Allah is Omniscient CREATOR endowed with free will Himself. Before he even creates you He knows your ultimate destiny. He could choose ONLY those destined or those destined for hell. The fact Allah chose to create someone destined for Hell means no matter what that person does he or she will not gain eternal salvation. Thus, the test on earth is rigged. It's like a school teacher who pre-assigns grades then asks the students to take the test. It doesn't really matter how well or poorly a student scored on the test as the teacher already assigned the student's grade.

& He will sometimes become so angered and incensed by the results of one class, which he knew eons in advance, he just won't be able to wait until the after life, so he will send a natural disaster to wipe out the whole class. In anger. Fine if you believe this stuff, but even if I was to believe in a god, I can't see it being of this character. I don't think it's all that plausible. Slightly o/t admittedly.

 

[Layth]

Lol I don't know how it's that hard to understand. Nothing is rigged at all. All choices are yours and qadr basically means that God has decreed that the choice you're going to make is going to come to pass. I gave this example and it's a perfect one. You can apply it to every scenario, including selecting an item to purchase from a shop:

Allah (SWT) has preordained meaning he had foreknowledge of the decision you’re going to make AND he decreed that it will indeed come to pass, in advance. For instance, I can plan to visit a relative’s house tomorrow but it may not happen since I may encounter an obstacle that I do not anticipate at this moment, for instance, a calamity such as a sickness may befall me which will prevent me from making my journey, thus it would have not been written for me that I will visit this relative of mine. On the other hand, if I do not encounter any obstacle and I’m not prevented in any way, I may very well visit this relative of mine, this means that it was preordained that I would visit this relative of mine.

Read this hadith:

Ibn Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, related from his Lord the Blessed and Exalted, “Verily, Allah has recorded good and bad deeds and he made them clear. Whoever intends to perform a good deed but does not do it, then Allah will record it as a complete good deed. If he intends to do it and does so, then Allah the Exalted will record it as ten good deeds up to seven hundred times as much or even more. If he intends to do a bad deed and does not do it, then Allah will record for him one complete good deed. If he does it, then Allah will record for him a single bad deed.”

Source: Ṣaḥīḥ al-Bukhārī 6126, Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 131

What that basically means is, if you intend to do good but it wasn't written for you to successfully undergo this task, you will still be rewarded for your intentions but you won't accumulate sins if you intend to do a sin but encounter obstacles. Look at the mercy of Allah (SWT)...

 

[Prince of Lasanod]

Subhanallah.. this forum is polluted by more atheists than i thought. May your lost souls be guided back to islam like many others have.

 

[Tramo]

Like I have been repeating over and over. In order for a choice to be classified as a choice it must be avoidable. This means that there must be a certain level of uncertainty on which choice you which to partake before you partake in it. Allah already knows the choice I am going to make with absolute certainty therefore rendering all my other choices null. The choice he has preordained is absolutely unavoidable. If Allah has preordained for me that I will be going to heaven/hell then everything I do will inevitably lead to heaven/hell.

Many confuse not knowing your future to mean being able to decide your own future when this is simply not true. Your path exists whether you know it or not and it is written in stone. Some compare God to a teacher (Zakir Naik) but that would be a false analogy because a teacher can only predict whilst God knows with absolute certainty. I can prove a teacher wrong.

My original argument was directed towards the free will of God which is a much more open and shut case but I'm cool nonetheless.

i know u've been repeating it over and over, but that doesnt make it any more right

u still haven't demonstrated why precognition precludes free will...u just keep repeating that it does. God having foreknowledge of what ur going to do in the future doesnt affect your ability to make that choice

put it this way...imagine if somehow i managed to invent time travel, but can only go 1 day into the future for example. i somehow observe that tomorrow at exactly 2:00:13 pm EST, u log into www.reddit.com. after wasting my limited time traveling on doing that, i come back to the present and hold my tongue. does my knowledge of what you're going to do tomorrow affect your choice of doing so?

 

[The_Cosmos]

i know u've been repeating it over and over, but that doesnt make it any more right

u still haven't demonstrated why precognition precludes free will...u just keep repeating that it does. God having foreknowledge of what ur going to do in the future doesnt affect your ability to make that choice

put it this way...imagine if somehow i managed to invent time travel, but can only go 1 day into the future for example. i somehow observe that tomorrow at exactly 2:00:13 pm EST, u log into www.reddit.com. after wasting my limited time traveling on doing that, i come back to the present and hold my tongue. does my knowledge of what you're going to do tomorrow affect your choice of doing so?

That's not a good example because time travel in itself creates paradoxical issues. Look up the time travel paradox. Nonetheless I get the point you're trying to make.

It preludes free will because it diminishes the ability of the individual to change his own path. If God has pre knowledge of my actions then my actions are unavoidable. For example, if God already knows that you're going to hell then everything you do will determine that outcome. Imagine creating a human being knowing full well that he is destined to hell but at the same time you somehow expect him to change that outcome.

This is a well established philosophical argument called the argument from free will.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will

Try and get an understanding of the point I am making if you feel that I haven't explained it properly.

 

[ChickenOriental]

Allah knowing what drink you will choose does not me you don't have free will.

God knows everything, past, present and future. God knows what choices you will make. He doesn't intervene in your choices and he does not lead you to your choices.

You make them.

I genuinely find this explanation to be very simple.

@The_Cosmos wants to believe he has no free will because he is secretly terrified that he will be held accountable for his actions. And he will. As will I. Stop running from the truth, walaal.

 

[The_Cosmos]

@The_Cosmos wants to believe he has no free will because he is secretly terrified that he will be held accountable for his actions. And he will. As will I. Stop running from the truth, walaal.

Why do you people always make assumption about other people's true nature. Can I not make any logically valid arguments without someone questioning my true nature?

I don't believe there is a God and thus I don't care what this non existent being thinks of me.

 

[ChickenOriental]

Why do you people always make assumption about other people's true nature. Can I not make any logically valid arguments without someone questioning my true nature?

I don't believe there is a God and thus I don't care what this non existent being thinks of me.

I have read your 'retorts' to people's explanation of Qadr and I realise that you have no interest in learning. "Don't talk about time" he says - you realise this is a key aspect of Qadr - that Allah is not confined to time like us? "Explain free will/ Qadr but you're not allowed to mention a key part of it because...reasons".


You want to be guided. That's why you 'ex-Muslims' spend all your time talking about religion. Just come back, walaal.

 

[The_Cosmos]

I have read your 'retorts' to people's explanation of Qadr and I realise that you have no interest in learning. "Don't talk about time" he says - you realise this is a key aspect of Qadr - that Allah is not confined to time like us? "Explain free will/ Qadr but you're not allowed to mention a key part of it because...reasons".


You want to be guided. That's why you 'ex-Muslims' spend all your time talking about religion. Just come back, walaal.

I never claimed don't talk because that would be impossible to have this entire conversation.

I simply said that bringing time travel in this equation makes things even more problematic. Time travel is paradoxical and hypothetical.

If we wanted to come back, then why would we make such a big deal and argue with you?

"I realise that you have no interest in learning." Learning is questioning things and not accepting anything simply because you were into it. I reckon you'd be a Christian fundamentalist if you were born Christian.

 

[ChickenOriental]

I never claimed don't talk because that would be impossible to have this entire conversation.

I simply said that bringing time travel in this equation makes things even more problematic. Time travel is paradoxical and hypothetical.

If we wanted to come back, then why would we make such a big deal and argue with you?

"I realise that you have no interest in learning." Learning is questioning things and not accepting anything simply because you were into it. I reckon you'd be a Christian fundamentalist if you were born Christian.

Walaal, if you're truly the hardcore Atheist you act like you are, then the very conversation - whether a 'non-existent' according to you, Supreme Being has given humans 'true free will' - is hypothetical. Talking about Allah - something you don't believe in - is allowed but talking about time travel isn't? Eh?

People have clearly explained to you and all you do is repeat yourself. I could explain it once more but people before me have done it on this thread so you can just re-read their posts.

And, saaxib, the reason why I am so strong in my deen today is because I very nearly left Islam completely in my teens. I researched Islam like a non-Muslim. And trust me, I am not the type to care about "what will Hooyo say", if I wanted to throw off my hijaab and embrace the 'western lifetsyle' I would have. I live away from home now, no family to answer to - wallahi I could do whatever I want.

I don't - because every time I have had a question, there has been an answer. However, unlike you, when people answered my questions - I listened.

KhatamAllahu 'alaa quloobihim wa 'alaa sam'ihim wa 'alaa absaarihim 3hishawaatun wa lahum 'adhaabun 'adheem.

 

[The_Cosmos]

Walaal, if you're truly the hardcore Atheist you act like you are, then the very conversation - whether a 'non-existent' according to you, Supreme Being has given humans 'true free will' - is hypothetical. Talking about Allah - something you don't believe in - is allowed but talking about time travel isn't? Eh?

People have clearly explained to you and all you do is repeat yourself. I could explain it once more but people before me have done it on this thread so you can just re-read their posts.

And, saaxib, the reason why I am so strong in my deen today is because I very nearly left Islam completely in my teens. I researched Islam like a non-Muslim. And trust me, I am not the type to care about "what will Hooyo say", if I wanted to throw off my hijaab and embrace the 'western lifetsyle' I would have. I live away from home now, no family to answer to - wallahi I could do whatever I want.

I don't - because every time I have had a question, there has been an answer. However, unlike you, when people answered my questions - I listened.

KhatamAllahu 'alaa quloobihim wa 'alaa sam'ihim wa 'alaa absaarihim 3hishawaatun wa lahum 'adhaabun 'adheem.

I disagree with their explanation because unlike you, I don't accept everything without further analysis which you seem to want me to do.

I don't believe in Allah and his free will notion but I know Muslim's do and I am using my logic and reasoning to counter that. Using something that is scientifically hypothetical is not the same thing.

I've went through the same path as you but I came out differently but unlike you, I will not claim that the other persons journey was biased or wrong like you again seem to imply.

 

[ChickenOriental]

He says:

unlike you, I don't accept everything without further analysis

And he says:

I've went through the same path as you but I came out differently but unlike you, I will not claim that the other persons journey was biased or wrong like you again seem to imply.

You're a contradiction.

Just look at what you did. Look at it. Think of it as a metaphor for what you have become - someone so convinced of their enlightenment and their knowledge that they have managed to go full circle and stop the path to knowledge. Rendering yourself deaf, dumb and blind.

Nothing wrong with questioning or seeking knowledge - Islam is against Taqleed an welcomes that. But what you have done is followed your desires and allowed that to blind you to the truth. You do it on this very thread and you can't even see it.

Like I said earlier: khatamAllahu 'alaa quloobihim wa 'alaa sam'ihim wa 'ALAA ABSAARIHIM 3HISHAAWATUN wa lahum 'adhaabun 'adheem.

Anyway, khalaas. May Allah guide you.

 

[The_Cosmos]

He says:


And he says:



You're a contradiction.

Just look at what you did. Look at it. Think of it as a metaphor for what you have become - someone so convinced of their enlightenment and their knowledge that they have managed to go full circle and stop the path to knowledge. Rendering yourself deaf, dumb and blind.

Nothing wrong with questioning or seeking knowledge - Islam is against Taqleed an welcomes that. But what you have done is followed your desires and allowed that to blind you to the truth. You do it on this very thread and you can't even see it.

Like I said earlier: khatamAllahu 'alaa quloobihim wa 'alaa sam'ihim wa 'ALAA ABSAARIHIM 3HISHAAWATUN wa lahum 'adhaabun 'adheem.

Anyway, khalaas. May Allah guide you.

Followed my desires?! You don't even bloody know me!

I've not for 1 second claimed to be enlightened nor did I claim that I have finished my path to enlightenment. Such paths are infinite. I could make the same claim for you. You've accepted Islam without trying to analyse other religions and seeing if they also make sense to you. Have you analysed Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Hinduism, Buddhism or whatever other religions out there? Have you pondered the possibility that God may not exist? You have done nothing but jump into this thread and attacked the sincerity of my belief.

The fact that you seem so insecure with your faith that you attack my sincerity speaks volumes about the type of person you are.

Goodbye! I will not indulge in petty assumptions any longer.

 

[Layth]

For example, if God already knows that you're going to hell then everything you do will determine that outcome. Imagine creating a human being knowing full well that he is destined to hell but at the same time you somehow expect him to change that outcome.

Might as well ask why did Allah create evil? The answer is really simple. Those who engage in evil cannot possibly have the same fate as those who are destined for eternal bliss. They are not equal in any way and especially not in faith and deed.

“Not equal are the companions of the Fire and the companions of Paradise. The companions of Paradise - they are the attainers [of success].”

Bottom line is, everyone makes their own choices, we were all situated on this planet to be tested. You’ve decided to disbelief, so take responsibility for your kufr like a man.