Somalis were Sufi and Shafi’i for over 700 years, how did Wahhabism/Salafism wipe it out in 2 generations?

[Taij4an]

you are mistaking Uluhiyah with rubuubiyah. Uluhiyah means that all forms of worship belong only to Allah. Rubuubiyah implies that Allah has all power over His creation. Please stop making uneducated claims regarding MIAW regarding his teachings, you’ve clearly not read his books etc.
ISIS are khawarijj and have naught to do with MIAW. They twist the ayahs of the quran regarding jihad. And the Najdis of the time arose at a time, when people were basically worshipping graves

Thank you, he doesnt understand the difference betwee rububiyyah and uluhiyyah

 

[Taij4an]

Why can’t the deceased be not able to make dua ?

dead people are not in a state to do any more ibadaah, they cannot make dua for someone in this dunya

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

one whos dead cant hear you nor can he answer ur dua

dead people are not in a state to do any more ibadaah, they cannot make dua for someone in this dunya

There’s a fundamental problem regarding your understanding in this discussion all together. I asked what’s the difference between living & dead that makes asking intercession from
deceased either kufr/shirk. We’ve a good example in the Prophet peace be upon Him where this is allowed by all 4 madhabs.

If merely requesting someone for dua was considered worshipping it makes no difference if the said individual is living or dead as both cases would be shirk. Is this true ? No it isn’t as we request dua all the time from the living.

Now here comes the problematic issue what about when requested from the dead? Is it worship ? No, an action doesn’t become worship simply because the individual is alive or dead.

Shirk is about beliefs, not about living or dead. That’s why if a person has shirk beliefs concerning the individual he’s asking intercession etc from it doesn’t matter whether that person is alive or dead as it’ll always be classified as shirk. This here is the crux of the issue sxb that you lack nuance in, you simply can’t accuse a muslim of worshiping graves etc simply because you saw them doing actions which you find reprehensible.

Yes a lot of muslims do actions that are forbidden at the graves like kissing them, doing prostrations etc but these actions in & themselves don’t constitute shirk. That’s why you can’t accuse of them worshiping the deceased, if you were to ask them if they’re worshiping them they would say no.

The najdi/salafi position is extreme because it considers the permissible intercession at the gravesite to be major shirk even with the Prophet peace be upon Him. A practice that has been recommended by major scholars from all madhabs is deemed as major shirk & this presents a very big problem in that majority of muslims are considered to be upon shirk.

That’s why you shouldn’t jump to make hasty conclusions when you lack the knowledge and understanding. Take your time to read things through & broaden your horizon as you’re definitely going to miss a lot of things if you continue to stick with the salafi narrative

Thank you, he doesnt understand the difference betwee rububiyyah and uluhiyyah

On the contrary my understanding about rububiyyah & uluhiyyah is indeed consistent & in line with the traditional understanding of it.

Rububiyyah & uluhiyyah as currently understood by salafis is very wrong & a deviation from Islamic doctrine. Like I said before rububiyyah & uluhiyyah are connected to each other & can’t be separated, worship is but a result of having a belief of rububiyyah in the god that one believes in.

Your worship of Allah is a result of you affirming Oneness to Allah in His Rububiyyah, you worship Him because He is the ONLY True Rabb.

This is a belief that’s unique to muslims ONLY no other people have it be it christians, jews, pagan arabs etc all of them have committed shirk Rububiyyah since they all affirm others lords beside Allah. You can’t believe in other gods besides Allah and at the same time affirm the Onenesses of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

Abu Khadija & co are the ones who don’t understand it as they’re claiming christians etc who we know for a fact have taken Jesus AS as Lord besides Allah have affirmed Oneness of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

How can people who’ve taken another Lord beside Allah affirm His Oneness in Rububiyyah? How can they be equal to us when we’re the only people who have SINGLED out Allah in His Rububiyyah?

In the grave the first question we’ll be asked is “ Who is Our Lord” why do you think this is so ? If it wasn’t sufficient we would’ve been asked who we worshipped but we’re not why ?

Abu Khadija claims that tawheed Rububiyyah is not the category that is the most sought after laakin it’s the First question to be asked when we’re in the grave. If it wasn’t that important why does that question take precedence over any other question ? Is Allah asking us for the sake of it ?

Like I said the salafi doctrine with how they understand tawheed & shirk is very flawed & contradicts the teachings of Quran, Sunnah & understanding of the salaf.

Ask your ustaad since he believes that the pagans have affirmed tawheed Rububiyyah will they be able to answer who their Rabb is when asked in the grave ?

 

[Taij4an]

Your worship of Allah is a result of you affirming Oneness to Allah in His Rububiyyah, you worship Him because He is the ONLY True Rabb.

not neccesrily

 

[Taij4an]

There’s a fundamental problem regarding your understanding in this discussion all together. I asked what’s the difference between living & dead that makes asking intercession from
deceased either kufr/shirk. We’ve a good example in the Prophet peace be upon Him where this is allowed by all 4 madhabs.

If merely requesting someone for dua was considered worshipping it makes no difference if the said individual is living or dead as both cases would be shirk. Is this true ? No it isn’t as we request dua all the time from the living.

Now here comes the problematic issue what about when requested from the dead? Is it worship ? No, an action doesn’t become worship simply because the individual is alive or dead.

Shirk is about beliefs, not about living or dead. That’s why if a person has shirk beliefs concerning the individual he’s asking intercession etc from it doesn’t matter whether that person is alive or dead as it’ll always be classified as shirk. This here is the crux of the issue sxb that you lack nuance in, you simply can’t accuse a muslim of worshiping graves etc simply because you saw them doing actions which you find reprehensible.

Yes a lot of muslims do actions that are forbidden at the graves like kissing them, doing prostrations etc but these actions in & themselves don’t constitute shirk. That’s why you can’t accuse of them worshiping the deceased, if you were to ask them if they’re worshiping them they would say no.

The najdi/salafi position is extreme because it considers the permissible intercession at the gravesite to be major shirk even with the Prophet peace be upon Him. A practice that has been recommended by major scholars from all madhabs is deemed as major shirk & this presents a very big problem in that majority of muslims are considered to be upon shirk.

That’s why you shouldn’t jump to make hasty conclusions when you lack the knowledge and understanding. Take your time to read things through & broaden your horizon as you’re definitely going to miss a lot of things if you continue to stick with the salafi narrative


On the contrary my understanding about rububiyyah & uluhiyyah is indeed consistent & in line with the traditional understanding of it.

Rububiyyah & uluhiyyah as currently understood by salafis is very wrong & a deviation from Islamic doctrine. Like I said before rububiyyah & uluhiyyah are connected to each other & can’t be separated, worship is but a result of having a belief of rububiyyah in the god that one believes in.

Your worship of Allah is a result of you affirming Oneness to Allah in His Rububiyyah, you worship Him because He is the ONLY True Rabb.

This is a belief that’s unique to muslims ONLY no other people have it be it christians, jews, pagan arabs etc all of them have committed shirk Rububiyyah since they all affirm others lords beside Allah. You can’t believe in other gods besides Allah and at the same time affirm the Onenesses of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

Abu Khadija & co are the ones who don’t understand it as they’re claiming christians etc who we know for a fact have taken Jesus AS as Lord besides Allah have affirmed Oneness of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

How can people who’ve taken another Lord beside Allah affirm His Oneness in Rububiyyah? How can they be equal to us when we’re the only people who have SINGLED out Allah in His Rububiyyah?

In the grave the first question we’ll be asked is “ Who is Our Lord” why do you think this is so ? If it wasn’t sufficient we would’ve been asked who we worshipped but we’re not why ?



View attachment 230090

Abu Khadija claims that tawheed Rububiyyah is not the category that is the most sought after laakin it’s the First question to be asked when we’re in the grave. If it wasn’t that important why does that question take precedence over any other question ? Is Allah asking us for the sake of it ?

Like I said the salafi doctrine with how they understand tawheed & shirk is very flawed & contradicts the teachings of Quran, Sunnah & understanding of the salaf.

Ask your ustaad since he believes that the pagans have affirmed tawheed Rububiyyah will they be able to answer who their Rabb is when asked in the grave ?

Did shaytaan believe he was his own rabb?

 

[Taij4an]

Abu Khadija claims that tawheed Rububiyyah is not the category that is the most sought after laakin it’s the First question to be asked when we’re in the grave. If it wasn’t that important why does that question take precedence over any other question ? Is Allah asking us for the sake of it ?

I disagree with abu khadija

 

[Taij4an]

There’s a fundamental problem regarding your understanding in this discussion all together. I asked what’s the difference between living & dead that makes asking intercession from
deceased either kufr/shirk. We’ve a good example in the Prophet peace be upon Him where this is allowed by all 4 madhabs.

If merely requesting someone for dua was considered worshipping it makes no difference if the said individual is living or dead as both cases would be shirk. Is this true ? No it isn’t as we request dua all the time from the living.

Now here comes the problematic issue what about when requested from the dead? Is it worship ? No, an action doesn’t become worship simply because the individual is alive or dead.

Shirk is about beliefs, not about living or dead. That’s why if a person has shirk beliefs concerning the individual he’s asking intercession etc from it doesn’t matter whether that person is alive or dead as it’ll always be classified as shirk. This here is the crux of the issue sxb that you lack nuance in, you simply can’t accuse a muslim of worshiping graves etc simply because you saw them doing actions which you find reprehensible.

Yes a lot of muslims do actions that are forbidden at the graves like kissing them, doing prostrations etc but these actions in & themselves don’t constitute shirk. That’s why you can’t accuse of them worshiping the deceased, if you were to ask them if they’re worshiping them they would say no.

The najdi/salafi position is extreme because it considers the permissible intercession at the gravesite to be major shirk even with the Prophet peace be upon Him. A practice that has been recommended by major scholars from all madhabs is deemed as major shirk & this presents a very big problem in that majority of muslims are considered to be upon shirk.

That’s why you shouldn’t jump to make hasty conclusions when you lack the knowledge and understanding. Take your time to read things through & broaden your horizon as you’re definitely going to miss a lot of things if you continue to stick with the salafi narrative


On the contrary my understanding about rububiyyah & uluhiyyah is indeed consistent & in line with the traditional understanding of it.

Rububiyyah & uluhiyyah as currently understood by salafis is very wrong & a deviation from Islamic doctrine. Like I said before rububiyyah & uluhiyyah are connected to each other & can’t be separated, worship is but a result of having a belief of rububiyyah in the god that one believes in.

Your worship of Allah is a result of you affirming Oneness to Allah in His Rububiyyah, you worship Him because He is the ONLY True Rabb.

This is a belief that’s unique to muslims ONLY no other people have it be it christians, jews, pagan arabs etc all of them have committed shirk Rububiyyah since they all affirm others lords beside Allah. You can’t believe in other gods besides Allah and at the same time affirm the Onenesses of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

Abu Khadija & co are the ones who don’t understand it as they’re claiming christians etc who we know for a fact have taken Jesus AS as Lord besides Allah have affirmed Oneness of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

How can people who’ve taken another Lord beside Allah affirm His Oneness in Rububiyyah? How can they be equal to us when we’re the only people who have SINGLED out Allah in His Rububiyyah?

In the grave the first question we’ll be asked is “ Who is Our Lord” why do you think this is so ? If it wasn’t sufficient we would’ve been asked who we worshipped but we’re not why ?



View attachment 230090

Abu Khadija claims that tawheed Rububiyyah is not the category that is the most sought after laakin it’s the First question to be asked when we’re in the grave. If it wasn’t that important why does that question take precedence over any other question ? Is Allah asking us for the sake of it ?

Like I said the salafi doctrine with how they understand tawheed & shirk is very flawed & contradicts the teachings of Quran, Sunnah & understanding of the salaf.

Ask your ustaad since he believes that the pagans have affirmed tawheed Rububiyyah will they be able to answer who their Rabb is when asked in the grave ?

U can worship something u do not believe is a Rabb

 

[Taij4an]

Shirk is about beliefs, not about living or dead. That’s why if a person has shirk beliefs concerning the individual he’s asking intercession etc from it doesn’t matter whether that person is alive or dead as it’ll always be classified as shirk. This here is the crux of the issue sxb that you lack nuance in, you simply can’t accuse a muslim of worshiping graves etc simply because you saw them doing actions which you find reprehensible.

No because doing shirk is giving the power to something that it doesn't have and worshipping them to attain it
Dead people cannot hear you or benefit you in anyway, they do not make dua for people in the dunya as people in the akhirah do not interfere with dunya affairs
Ur giving power and veneration to graves that they do not deserve.
Qawm nuhs people started by making statues of their righteous people to remember them, then the next generation started worshipping them, why? because veneration of things that don't deserve it will eventually lead a person to believe the person themself has power to do something other than Allah, and they will eventually do acts that are exclusive to Allah to these people out of their extreme veneration to them

 

[Taij4an]

doing prostration

prostration is an act of ibadaah
there is a reason why we do not do sujood in janaazah prayer

 

[Taij4an]

There’s a fundamental problem regarding your understanding in this discussion all together. I asked what’s the difference between living & dead that makes asking intercession from
deceased either kufr/shirk. We’ve a good example in the Prophet peace be upon Him where this is allowed by all 4 madhabs.

If merely requesting someone for dua was considered worshipping it makes no difference if the said individual is living or dead as both cases would be shirk. Is this true ? No it isn’t as we request dua all the time from the living.

Now here comes the problematic issue what about when requested from the dead? Is it worship ? No, an action doesn’t become worship simply because the individual is alive or dead.

Shirk is about beliefs, not about living or dead. That’s why if a person has shirk beliefs concerning the individual he’s asking intercession etc from it doesn’t matter whether that person is alive or dead as it’ll always be classified as shirk. This here is the crux of the issue sxb that you lack nuance in, you simply can’t accuse a muslim of worshiping graves etc simply because you saw them doing actions which you find reprehensible.

Yes a lot of muslims do actions that are forbidden at the graves like kissing them, doing prostrations etc but these actions in & themselves don’t constitute shirk. That’s why you can’t accuse of them worshiping the deceased, if you were to ask them if they’re worshiping them they would say no.

The najdi/salafi position is extreme because it considers the permissible intercession at the gravesite to be major shirk even with the Prophet peace be upon Him. A practice that has been recommended by major scholars from all madhabs is deemed as major shirk & this presents a very big problem in that majority of muslims are considered to be upon shirk.

That’s why you shouldn’t jump to make hasty conclusions when you lack the knowledge and understanding. Take your time to read things through & broaden your horizon as you’re definitely going to miss a lot of things if you continue to stick with the salafi narrative


On the contrary my understanding about rububiyyah & uluhiyyah is indeed consistent & in line with the traditional understanding of it.

Rububiyyah & uluhiyyah as currently understood by salafis is very wrong & a deviation from Islamic doctrine. Like I said before rububiyyah & uluhiyyah are connected to each other & can’t be separated, worship is but a result of having a belief of rububiyyah in the god that one believes in.

Your worship of Allah is a result of you affirming Oneness to Allah in His Rububiyyah, you worship Him because He is the ONLY True Rabb.

This is a belief that’s unique to muslims ONLY no other people have it be it christians, jews, pagan arabs etc all of them have committed shirk Rububiyyah since they all affirm others lords beside Allah. You can’t believe in other gods besides Allah and at the same time affirm the Onenesses of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

Abu Khadija & co are the ones who don’t understand it as they’re claiming christians etc who we know for a fact have taken Jesus AS as Lord besides Allah have affirmed Oneness of Allah’s Rububiyyah.

How can people who’ve taken another Lord beside Allah affirm His Oneness in Rububiyyah? How can they be equal to us when we’re the only people who have SINGLED out Allah in His Rububiyyah?

In the grave the first question we’ll be asked is “ Who is Our Lord” why do you think this is so ? If it wasn’t sufficient we would’ve been asked who we worshipped but we’re not why ?



View attachment 230090

Abu Khadija claims that tawheed Rububiyyah is not the category that is the most sought after laakin it’s the First question to be asked when we’re in the grave. If it wasn’t that important why does that question take precedence over any other question ? Is Allah asking us for the sake of it ?

Like I said the salafi doctrine with how they understand tawheed & shirk is very flawed & contradicts the teachings of Quran, Sunnah & understanding of the salaf.

Ask your ustaad since he believes that the pagans have affirmed tawheed Rububiyyah will they be able to answer who their Rabb is when asked in the grave ?

btw i do not believe in the modern day salafi rhetoric which says tawheed ruboobiyah is affirmed by everyone, thats stupid and flat out wrong, also they say that its only tawheed uluhiyah which is sought out, which makes no sense because firawn and other nations of the past didnt even believe in Allah and the main dawah was tawheed ruboobiyah

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

not neccesrily

It’s impossible to worship Allah without believing that He is your Rabb. When asked why you worship Allah ? What’s your answer ?

Did shaytaan believe he was his own rabb?

We’ve already covered this please go back to the previous discussion

I disagree with abu khadija

That’s good but the reason why abu Khadija believes it is because this is part of salafi theology. Miaw says this is his books when discussing the issue of tawheed Rububiyyah & how the disbelievers have affirmed it. In fact it forms the basis of his takfir against the muslims as he uses it as evidence to claim there’s no distinction between the actions of pagans & muslims when it relates to seeking intercession. He says the disbelievers didn’t affirm rububiyyah to their gods just wanted their intercession read up on kashaf shubuhat ( removal of doubts)

U can worship something u do not believe is a Rabb

Please give me an example of religion where people do just that ?

No because doing shirk is giving the power to something that it doesn't have and worshipping them to attain it
Dead people cannot hear you or benefit you in anyway, they do not make dua for people in the dunya as people in the akhirah do not interfere with dunya affairs
Ur giving power and veneration to graves that they do not deserve.
Qawm nuhs people started by making statues of their righteous people to remember them, then the next generation started worshipping them, why? because veneration of things that don't deserve it will eventually lead a person to believe the person themself has power to do something other than Allah, and they will eventually do acts that are exclusive to Allah to these people out of their extreme veneration to them

Giving power what’s that ? is that not rububiyyah? You’re claiming that those who seek intercession from the deceased do so because of what they believe about these intercessors ie they have the ability & power to grant them whatever they need.

The ability to help, power to benefit etc what are all of this ? When you seek benefit from the living, ask for intercession, dua etc do the living have these abilities on their own ie independent or is that Allah grants them & happens by His Will ? If you claim that they’re independent then this is shirk as you affirmed that there are other beings other than Allah who’ve real influence. Similarly when you believe that the deceased are independent of Allah this is shirk as well.

Just like there’s limitations to what you can ask of the living the same applies to the deceased.

prostration is an act of ibadaah
there is a reason why we do not do sujood in janaazah prayer

Not every sujud is an act of ibadah take for instance when Yaqub As & his sons prostrated to Yusuf AS who was his son. Indeed if every sujud was worship then this would mean they would’ve worshipped Yusuf but no one understands it this way. Scholars distinguish between the sujud of worship & that of greeting/ respect.

In the time of Yusuf AS is was lawful to prostate to people out of respect etc laakin this became outlawed after Prophet Muhammed peace be upon Him.

What this indicates is that sujud by itself can never be worship unless accompanied by an internal belief that the one who you prostate to deserves your servitude, submissiveness, humility as you believe they’ve power over you.
That’s why a pagan prostates to an god idol they’re worshiping it but when Yaqub AS prostrated to Yusuf AS it wasn’t worship.

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration… 12:100

That’s why when you see a muslim prostrating to a grave you can’t accuse him of worshiping the deceased unless you question him it’s not possible to find out otherwise. Which is why we should give benefit of the doubt to such muslims as I don’t believe outright they they believe the deceased are gods besides Allah etc

btw i do not believe in the modern day salafi rhetoric which says tawheed ruboobiyah is affirmed by everyone, thats stupid and flat out wrong, also they say that its only tawheed uluhiyah which is sought out, which makes no sense because firawn and other nations of the past didnt even believe in Allah and the main dawah was tawheed ruboobiyah

That’s correct, the reason why they claim such a thing is so that they can create a similarity between the actions of muslims & those of mushriks.

They separate rububiyyah & uluhiyyah from each other as it allows them to say that rububiyyah wasn’t sufficient as it was affirmed by everyone that’s why uluhiyyah was needed. To them shirk was about external actions that’s why they would declare a muslim to be a mushrik/kafir when they saw them doing prohibited actions in the grave etc.

In their lectures it’s the norm for them to claim that this is exactly what happened with the pagans of old did as well as they too didn’t affirm rububiyyah to their idols, deceased etc. So they ask why are you as a muslim trying to distinguish between your actions & that of pagans when both of you belief & affirm rububiyyah for Allah alone.

Affirming rububiyyah to the disbelievers is a central doctrine of salafis without which their basis for takfir & accusing muslims of major shirk falls apart.

 

[Taij4an]

Not every sujud is an act of ibadah

for our ummah it is

 

[Taij4an]

It’s impossible to worship Allah without believing that He is your Rabb. When asked why you worship Allah ? What’s your answer ?

We’ve already covered this please go back to the previous discussion

That’s good but the reason why abu Khadija believes it is because this is part of salafi theology. Miaw says this is his books when discussing the issue of tawheed Rububiyyah & how the disbelievers have affirmed it. In fact it forms the basis of his takfir against the muslims as he uses it as evidence to claim there’s no distinction between the actions of pagans & muslims when it relates to seeking intercession. He says the disbelievers didn’t affirm rububiyyah to their gods just wanted their intercession read up on kashaf shubuhat ( removal of doubts)

Please give me an example of religion where people do just that ?

Giving power what’s that ? is that not rububiyyah? You’re claiming that those who seek intercession from the deceased do so because of what they believe about these intercessors ie they have the ability & power to grant them whatever they need.

The ability to help, power to benefit etc what are all of this ? When you seek benefit from the living, ask for intercession, dua etc do the living have these abilities on their own ie independent or is that Allah grants them & happens by His Will ? If you claim that they’re independent then this is shirk as you affirmed that there are other beings other than Allah who’ve real influence. Similarly when you believe that the deceased are independent of Allah this is shirk as well.

Just like there’s limitations to what you can ask of the living the same applies to the deceased.


Not every sujud is an act of ibadah take for instance when Yaqub As & his sons prostrated to Yusuf AS who was his son. Indeed if every sujud was worship then this would mean they would’ve worshipped Yusuf but no one understands it this way. Scholars distinguish between the sujud of worship & that of greeting/ respect.

In the time of Yusuf AS is was lawful to prostate to people out of respect etc laakin this became outlawed after Prophet Muhammed peace be upon Him.

What this indicates is that sujud by itself can never be worship unless accompanied by an internal belief that the one who you prostate to deserves your servitude, submissiveness, humility as you believe they’ve power over you.
That’s why a pagan prostates to an god idol they’re worshiping it but when Yaqub AS prostrated to Yusuf AS it wasn’t worship.

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration… 12:100

That’s why when you see a muslim prostrating to a grave you can’t accuse him of worshiping the deceased unless you question him it’s not possible to find out otherwise. Which is why we should give benefit of the doubt to such muslims as I don’t believe outright they they believe the deceased are gods besides Allah etc


That’s correct, the reason why they claim such a thing is so that they can create a similarity between the actions of muslims & those of mushriks.

They separate rububiyyah & uluhiyyah from each other as it allows them to say that rububiyyah wasn’t sufficient as it was affirmed by everyone that’s why uluhiyyah was needed. To them shirk was about external actions that’s why they would declare a muslim to be a mushrik/kafir when they saw them doing prohibited actions in the grave etc.

In their lectures it’s the norm for them to claim that this is exactly what happened with the pagans of old did as well as they too didn’t affirm rububiyyah to their idols, deceased etc. So they ask why are you as a muslim trying to distinguish between your actions & that of pagans when both of you belief & affirm rububiyyah for Allah alone.

Affirming rububiyyah to the disbelievers is a central doctrine of salafis without which their basis for takfir & accusing muslims of major shirk falls apart.

U may be right, if being a rabb means what they say it means which is to have power and ability to benefit and supply and help ppl, then anyone who worships other than Allah automatically believes they can benefit them other than Allah.

 

[Taij4an]

als

It’s impossible to worship Allah without believing that He is your Rabb. When asked why you worship Allah ? What’s your answer ?

We’ve already covered this please go back to the previous discussion

That’s good but the reason why abu Khadija believes it is because this is part of salafi theology. Miaw says this is his books when discussing the issue of tawheed Rububiyyah & how the disbelievers have affirmed it. In fact it forms the basis of his takfir against the muslims as he uses it as evidence to claim there’s no distinction between the actions of pagans & muslims when it relates to seeking intercession. He says the disbelievers didn’t affirm rububiyyah to their gods just wanted their intercession read up on kashaf shubuhat ( removal of doubts)

Please give me an example of religion where people do just that ?

Giving power what’s that ? is that not rububiyyah? You’re claiming that those who seek intercession from the deceased do so because of what they believe about these intercessors ie they have the ability & power to grant them whatever they need.

The ability to help, power to benefit etc what are all of this ? When you seek benefit from the living, ask for intercession, dua etc do the living have these abilities on their own ie independent or is that Allah grants them & happens by His Will ? If you claim that they’re independent then this is shirk as you affirmed that there are other beings other than Allah who’ve real influence. Similarly when you believe that the deceased are independent of Allah this is shirk as well.

Just like there’s limitations to what you can ask of the living the same applies to the deceased.


Not every sujud is an act of ibadah take for instance when Yaqub As & his sons prostrated to Yusuf AS who was his son. Indeed if every sujud was worship then this would mean they would’ve worshipped Yusuf but no one understands it this way. Scholars distinguish between the sujud of worship & that of greeting/ respect.

In the time of Yusuf AS is was lawful to prostate to people out of respect etc laakin this became outlawed after Prophet Muhammed peace be upon Him.

What this indicates is that sujud by itself can never be worship unless accompanied by an internal belief that the one who you prostate to deserves your servitude, submissiveness, humility as you believe they’ve power over you.
That’s why a pagan prostates to an god idol they’re worshiping it but when Yaqub AS prostrated to Yusuf AS it wasn’t worship.

And he raised his parents upon the throne, and they bowed to him in prostration… 12:100

That’s why when you see a muslim prostrating to a grave you can’t accuse him of worshiping the deceased unless you question him it’s not possible to find out otherwise. Which is why we should give benefit of the doubt to such muslims as I don’t believe outright they they believe the deceased are gods besides Allah etc


That’s correct, the reason why they claim such a thing is so that they can create a similarity between the actions of muslims & those of mushriks.

They separate rububiyyah & uluhiyyah from each other as it allows them to say that rububiyyah wasn’t sufficient as it was affirmed by everyone that’s why uluhiyyah was needed. To them shirk was about external actions that’s why they would declare a muslim to be a mushrik/kafir when they saw them doing prohibited actions in the grave etc.

In their lectures it’s the norm for them to claim that this is exactly what happened with the pagans of old did as well as they too didn’t affirm rububiyyah to their idols, deceased etc. So they ask why are you as a muslim trying to distinguish between your actions & that of pagans when both of you belief & affirm rububiyyah for Allah alone.

Affirming rububiyyah to the disbelievers is a central doctrine of salafis without which their basis for takfir & accusing muslims of major shirk falls apart.

also i havent done research into MIAW so im not going to speak about him

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

for our ummah it is

This would mean that during Yusuf’s AS time shirk was allowed since all sujud is worship. Shirk is shirk it was never allowed then now is it allowed today. Your definition & understanding of what shirk is changes with time meaning.


There’s a big difference between the prostration of Yaqub to Yusuf and the prostration a pagan makes to his idol. Since you can’t distinguish between the two this indicates that your understanding of what shirk needs reflection as it’s inconsistent & has huge ramifications.

U may be right, if being a rabb means what they say it means which is to have power and ability to benefit and supply and help ppl, then anyone who worships other than Allah automatically believes they can benefit them other than Allah.

That’s the definition of what A Rabb means, when I stated that your worship of Allah is tied to His Rububiyyah you said

After which I asked you

Your reply to this was that I maybe right & went on to talk about semantics of what rabb means. I’m bit confused as to what exactly you’re disputing here when I say that our worship of Allah is a result of us believing in His Rububiyyah. Are you for instance claiming that a muslim can worship Allah without believing that Allah is His Rabb ? If not can you explain what you mean by “not necessarily “

als

also i havent done research into MIAW so im not going to speak about him

No problem with that but so far your arguments & objections points to the fact that you already subscribe to the salafi understanding of tawheed. This is why you’re separating between the rububiyyah & uluhiyyah of Allah.

Forgot to mention that the people of Nuh who were worshipping the righteous took them as gods besides Allah meaning they ascribed lordship & divinity to them, this is why they worshipped them.

And said, 'Never leave your gods and never leave Wadd or Suwāʿ or Yaghūth and Yaʿūq and Nasr. 71:23

 

[Taij4an]

Your reply to this was that I maybe right & went on to talk about semantics of what rabb means. I’m bit confused as to what exactly you’re disputing here when I say that our worship of Allah is a result of us believing in His Rububiyyah. Are you for instance claiming that a muslim can worship Allah without believing that Allah is His Rabb ? If not can you explain what you mean by “not necessarily “

wats the Islamic definition of rabb

 

[Taij4an]

This would mean that during Yusuf’s AS time shirk was allowed since all sujud is worship. Shirk is shirk it was never allowed then now is it allowed today. Your definition & understanding of what shirk is changes with time meaning.


There’s a big difference between the prostration of Yaqub to Yusuf and the prostration a pagan makes to his idol. Since you can’t distinguish between the two this indicates that your understanding of what shirk needs reflection as it’s inconsistent & has huge ramifications.

the reason its prohibited is bc it leads to shirk, so people kissing and prostrating to graves will eventually lead to shirk, the dead people cannot benefit ppl in anyway at all so making dua to them and prostrating and venerating them will eventually lead to taking them as Gods like nuhs ppl did

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

wats the Islamic definition of rabb

Rabb is one of the names of Allah SWT it means the He is the absolute owner of everything in existence and He is the One that cares, sustains & nourishes everything from the smallest to the largest of things. Everything is under His control & dominion. He has no partner nor is He weak

To have tawheed in Allah’s Rububiyyah means to single out Allah in everything that He does.This belief must be free from kufr & shirk

Do you have different explanation what Rabb means ? You still haven’t my previous question regarding your objections

the reason its prohibited is bc it leads to shirk, so people kissing and prostrating to graves will eventually lead to shirk, the dead people cannot benefit ppl in anyway at all so making dua to them and prostrating and venerating them will eventually lead to taking them as Gods like nuhs ppl did

Unless accompanied by underlying beliefs it can’t lead to shirk. Furthermore it would’ve never been allowed during Yusuf’s AS time

There’s a fundamental problem in your understand of what shirk entails as you seem focused on the acts itself without taking into consideration the internal beliefs that are the cause of these actions.

A christian who believes in Jesus AS as his Lord is guilty of shirk even if he doesn’t perform any action of worship to Jesus. The reason being he has ascribed a partner to Allah in His Rububiyyah.

Where living or deceased no one has the benefit to help you without the Will & Power of Allah. Believing that they can help you independently is shirk it doesn’t matter if the person is living or deceased.

An act doesn’t become shirk due to one being dead, it’s about beliefs. Unless the beliefs changes it’s not possible for shirk to take place this is what happen to the people of Nuh AS.

I agree that it’s important to correct the mistakes people make at the graves like kissing, prostrating etc laakin this is different than accusing them of worshipping the deceased when they don’t do that.

It’s important to have a nuanced position in this issue altogether instead of making blanket accusations don’t you agree ?

 

[Prince of HS]

bump

There are moderate sufis as well as extreme sufis ( those who praise the dead and seek guidance and advice from them) and then there are moderate salafis and extreme ones (wahabis and the likes who are quick to takafir). As someone who dealt with both extremes of these two beliefs, it is best to just stay away from all that.

My advice to all of you guys is to not overcomplicate the deen. being a sunni muslim who follows quran, sunnah and hadith as well as following your preffered madhab ( Somalis usually follow the shafi madhab) are ideal and you are less likely to put yourself in danger of falling of the straight path. Rember Allah SWT never made this deen as hard as people make it out to be.