Somalis were Sufi and Shafi’i for over 700 years, how did Wahhabism/Salafism wipe it out in 2 generations?

[Indeed]

Oh no. I have no issues with that. In fact I despise those men that want their wife to work AND do all the housechores.

If you're gonna provide and she does the cooking and cleaning then good for you. But remember, helping your spouse is good adhab and sunnah.

Of course I advocate to help my wife, likes wise I advocate for my lady too cook and clean etc, while I’m the protecter of the house etc.

 

[World]

I'm actually done with these lot. I've been getting thumbs down as they want to justify actual shirk and hate on scholars like ibn Taymiyyah. God help us.

@World

The principle is that the dead do not hear the words of the living, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): "but you cannot make hear those in the graves." [Faatir 35:22] and
"Verily, you cannot make the dead to hear" [al-Naml 27:80]

Why are you using Ibn Taymiyyah? I’m curious. Do you think he believes that asking the dead to intercede to Allah for us is shirk? Because he doesn’t. He does say it’s haram. Likewise, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that the dead can hear. It’s simply a difference of opinion. Nobody other than MIAW labelled it shirk.

 

[Indeed]

Why are you using Ibn Taymiyyah? I’m curious. Do you think he believes that asking the dead to intercede to Allah for us is shirk that makes you a non-Muslim? Because he doesn’t. He does say it’s haram. Likewise, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that the dead can hear.

There’s no evidence that the dead can hear, only at when they get buried, when people leave janazah, that’s when the dead who got buried can hear the footsteps, other than that allahu alum whether the dead can hear, we can only make dua for them as dua can really benefit them especially if you’re the righteous son/daughter of the parent who passed away.

 

[Angelina]

Why are you using Ibn Taymiyyah? I’m curious. Do you think he believes that asking the dead to intercede to Allah for us is shirk that makes you a non-Muslim? Because he doesn’t. He does say it’s haram. Likewise, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that the dead can hear.

Because you said the works of Ibn Taymiyyah should be banned in Somalia.

Asking the dead to intercede doesn't take you out of the fold and I wouldn't dream of making Takfeer on people.

As Muslims, we should make dua for the dead, not ask them to pray for us ect.

 

[citrus_samurai]

Tawassul (intercession) with the so called “dead” is not shirk. There are two opinions among the classical scholars when it comes to it: permissible (halal) and impermissible (haram).

Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani on Tawassul:

From the story of 'Abbas it follows that seeking intercession through the pious, the righteous and the Ahlul Bayt (family of the Prophet) is praiseworthy.

- Fathul Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari, Page 577 under Hadith number 1010 of Sahih Bukhari


Shaykh al-Islam Imam al-Subki (رَحِمَهُ الله) said:

It should be known that Tawassul asking for help and intercession through the Prophet (ﷺ) in the court of Allah is not only allowed but is recommended. It being legal and recommended is a known fact for everyone who has understanding of Deen, this is a deed of Prophets/Messengers, the Salaf as-Saliheen, the Ulama and general public of Muslims.

None of them denied it nor in any time these deeds were called as bad except for when Ibn Taymiyyah (came into the picture) and he started to reject them, his sayings made the weak get into confusion/dilemma, he did such a Bidah which nobody before him had done.

- Shifa us Siqaam fi Ziyaratil Khayr il Anaam, Page 357.

 

[World]

Because you said the works of Ibn Taymiyyah should be banned in Somalia.

Asking the dead to intercede doesn't take you out of the fold and I wouldn't dream of making Takfeer on people.

As Muslims, we should make dua for the dead, not ask them to pray for us ect.

This is what you said:

Intercession from a dead person who cannot even see or hear you, is clearly shirk though.

According to ibn taymiyyah, it is not shirk. Asking the Prophet (saw) to intercede for you at his grave is only haram. His belief is that it is shirk to ask the dead to give you a baby(for example), which I agree.

Nothing controversial of saying ibn taymiyyah should be banned in somalia, all scholars of his time agreed to imprison him due to his beliefs.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Intercession from a dead person who cannot even see or hear you, is clearly shirk though. How can someone dead, who is being questioned in the grave help you in any shape or form?

@AdoonkaAlle is that acceptable from your perspective?

It is allowed & prescribed to do so especially with the Prophet peace be upon him

There’s 2 types of

1) Tawassul with our noble Prophet (ﷺ) in one's supplication to one's Lord. Like the Hadith of the blind man. This dua can be used at all times

2) Asking our noble Prophet (ﷺ) for intercession in the context of the visitation

This is allowed in all 4 schools and has been acted upon by scholars themselves. Some scholars allowed tawassul with righteous people as well. It’s only in our modern era that it’s deemed as bidah or shirk. Ibn taymiyyah was the first one to ever say it was bidah & scholars refuted him for that.

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Is asking the prophet salllalhu alayhi wasalam shirk because they believe he is a rabb?

No it’s not I posed the question so as to gauge your Ustadh’s postion. If he’s knowledgeable then he’ll tell you it’s not considering that All 4 schools allow it.

My follow up question would be if it’s shirk how come it’s permissible in all madhabs ? Why didn’t the classical deem it to be shirk ?

 

[Angelina]

There’s no evidence that the dead can hear, only at when they get buried, when people leave janazah, that’s when the dead who got buried can hear the footsteps, other than that allahu alum whether the dead can hear, we can only make dua for them as dua can really benefit them especially if you’re the righteous son/daughter of the parent

It is allowed & prescribed to do so especially with the Prophet peace be upon him

There’s 2 types of

1) Tawassul with our noble Prophet (ﷺ) in one's supplication to one's Lord. Like the Hadith of the blind man. This dua can be used at all times



View attachment 229731

2) Asking our noble Prophet (ﷺ) for intercession in the context of the visitation

View attachment 229736

This is allowed in all 4 schools and has been acted upon by scholars themselves. Some scholars allowed tawassul with righteous people as well. It’s only in our modern era that it’s deemed as bidah or shirk. Ibn taymiyyah was the first one to ever say it was bidah & scholars refuted him for that.

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

مَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ يُسَلِّمُ عَلَيَّ إِلَّا رَدَّ اللَّهُ عَلَيَّ رُوحِي حَتَّى أَرُدَّ عَلَيْهِ السَّلَامَ
None of you greet me with peace but that Allah returns my spirit, that I may return his greeting of peace.
Source: Sunan Abī Dāwūd 2041, Grade: Sahih

According to this narration, the Prophet (ṣ) can only answer our greetings because his soul is returned to him for this purpose. Otherwise, his soul has left his body and he can no longer do anything we ask from him like any other deceased person.

That is for the Prophets, now show me proof that a dead righteous person can intercede for you which is what we're talking about.

Did any of the madhabs say that a person can try and get a dead righteous person to intercede?

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

What is the definition of Allahs rubabiyyah

To single out Allah in all of His actions, rejecting the commands of Allah amounts to kufr.

 

[Angelina]

No it’s not I posed the question so as to gauge your Ustadh’s postion. If he’s knowledgeable then he’ll tell you it’s not considering that All 4 schools allow it.

My follow up question would be if it’s shirk how come it’s permissible in all madhabs ? Why didn’t the classical deem it to be shirk ?

Please show me proof from the concensus of Muslims that you can make Tawassul through a dead saint.

Tawassul (intercession) with the so called “dead” is not shirk. There are two opinions among the classical scholars when it comes to it: permissible (halal) and impermissible (haram).

Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani on Tawassul:

From the story of 'Abbas it follows that seeking intercession through the pious, the righteous and the Ahlul Bayt (family of the Prophet) is praiseworthy.

- Fathul Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari, Page 577 under Hadith number 1010 of Sahih Bukhari


Shaykh al-Islam Imam al-Subki (رَحِمَهُ الله) said:

It should be known that Tawassul asking for help and intercession through the Prophet (ﷺ) in the court of Allah is not only allowed but is recommended. It being legal and recommended is a known fact for everyone who has understanding of Deen, this is a deed of Prophets/Messengers, the Salaf as-Saliheen, the Ulama and general public of Muslims.

None of them denied it nor in any time these deeds were called as bad except for when Ibn Taymiyyah (came into the picture) and he started to reject them, his sayings made the weak get into confusion/dilemma, he did such a Bidah which nobody before him had done.

- Shifa us Siqaam fi Ziyaratil Khayr il Anaam, Page 357.

Show me proof you can make tawassul through a dead saint. This is about the Prophet.

 

[World]

Show me proof you can make tawassul through a dead saint. This is about the Prophet.

Nobody before Ibn Taymiyyah considered this haram. All four madhabs consider this halal. The reason why it is halal is the same reason you can do tawwasul through the prophet(saw).


Hadith of Uthman ibn Hunayf (Allah be pleased with him) in which the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) advised a man complaining of blindness to offer two Rak’ats prayer and then supplicate saying, “O Allah, I ask you and turn to you through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy…” (Tirmidhi) The same Uthman ibn Hunayf, after the passing of the Prophet (peace be upon him), advised a person who visited him repeatedly, concerning something he needed, to do the same. (Al-Mu’jam al-Kabir of Tabarani and classed as authentic (sahih) by al-Bayhaqi, Mundhiri, al-Haythami and others).

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:


According to this narration, the Prophet (ṣ) can only answer our greetings because his soul is returned to him for this purpose. Otherwise, his soul has left his body and he can no longer do anything we ask from him like any other deceased person.

That is for the Prophets, now show me proof that a dead righteous person can intercede for you which is what we're talking about.

Did any of the madhabs say that a person can try and get a dead righteous person to intercede?

You’ve completely misunderstood what that Hadith says. It doesn’t state that the prophet can ONLY answer our greeting and nothing else.

The Hadith confirms that our greetings reaches the Prophet and he greets us back. It had nothing to do with seeking intercession or anything of the sort.

Muslims useto seek blessing from the Prophet’s garments, hair etc even after His death. These aren’t things that are alive what about the Prophet himself who we know is alive in His grave ?

I can understand that this may be shocking but do remember that people who had better understanding than us were the ones who allowed it. If it was shirk to do so wouldn’t you think the scholars would be the first to say so ?

 

[GarlicBread]

It’s clear you have no idea what you’re talking about.

The irony

 

[AdoonkaAlle]

Please show me proof from the concensus of Muslims that you can make Tawassul through a dead saint.

Show me proof you can make tawassul through a dead saint. This is about the Prophet.

What’s the difference between making tawassul with a saint who’s alive & one who’s dead ?

The same evidence that makes it permissible to seek intercession with a live saint will equally apply to a dead saint.

Tawassul with the Prophet peace be upon Him was done both when he was alive and when he passed away. If it was shirk to seek intercession with the deceased then no exceptions would’ve been made for the Prophet peace be upon

 

[Indeed]

We only worship Allah, we make dua to Allah, we pray to Allah, that all comes down to worshiping Allah only. I suggest some of you here to be careful , as Shirk is unforgivable sin if you die without repentance and Allah is just and most forgiving.

Worship Allah, learn the Quran, do the 5 pillars of Islam and follow the sunnah of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, full stop.

 

[Angelina]

What’s the difference between making tawassul with a saint who’s alive & one who’s dead ?

The same evidence that makes it permissible to seek intercession with a live saint will equally apply to a dead saint.

Tawassul with the Prophet peace be upon Him was done both when he was alive and when he passed away. If it was shirk to seek intercession with the deceased then no exceptions would’ve been made for the Prophet peace be upon

Lol, I said show me a scholarly view. The prophet is different as his soul is given back to him, when you salam him, others haven't been given that privilege.

There is a huge difference. Anyone can make dua for you who is alive. There is no debate about that. Whilst alive my deeds and dua are answered. Once dead, i'm of no use to anyone and that includes the righteous as well. They need the living to make dua FOR them, if they have children or relatives, the relatives may start sadaqa FOR them ect.

It is a fact, that once dead you can't even help yourself. You'll be be judged by the dua and the deeds you've done in the DUNYA. So, if you can't even help yourself, in what world can you help others?

 

[Angelina]

What’s the difference between making tawassul with a saint who’s alive & one who’s dead ?

The same evidence that makes it permissible to seek intercession with a live saint will equally apply to a dead saint.

Tawassul with the Prophet peace be upon Him was done both when he was alive and when he passed away. If it was shirk to seek intercession with the deceased then no exceptions would’ve been made for the Prophet peace be upon

Aduunka, i've asked you to give me scholarly view that one can do Tawassul through dead saints. Provide hadiths and references please.

We're both lay people, do technically both us don't know much. Our opinions are irrelevant in the matter.

 

[Insurance]

A bit off topic, but the Sufis from back home are some of the most ignorant people. They have no clear ideology, it's just vibes. They think they are all going to paradise.

 

[TekNiKo]

They can hear you though.

It’s not major shirk, as long as they don’t believe that the dead person is able to help you independent of Allah.

Oops dont tell them about blind man hadith where the Prophet SAW instructed him to intercede with his name they might go berserk