Sinai origin of E-Z813?

[Reformed J]

There's a new basal E-Z813 sample.

Although he didn't put a flag, he designated himself with avl, Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic, the dialect spoken by nomads in: the Sinai peninsula and the Negev desert.

It'd be interesting if he continues to be basal at E-Z813. In such a case there'd be two basal E-Z813 samples in the same general vicinity: Sinai and Nablus/Palestine. Along with the fleshed out subclades, E-Y17859 and E-Z21175, which have upstream samples in the Sinai, NW Saudi Arabia and Kuwait that run parallel to the Cushitic branches.

Of course there's obvious caveats such as: the lone Neolithic E-Z813 being a >3,000 year old Kenyan pastoralist; and E-Z813's sister clade E-Y28701 containing Saharans and early medieval Kulubnarti Nubians. Rather than a Sinai origin as the present DNA evidence suggests, it could simply be a case of under sampling of nomads from the eastern desert.

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[daljirkadahsoon]

@Step a side Can you explain how some people get a basal haplogroup? I thought you must have each mutation as time goes on

 

[Step a side]

@Step a side Can you explain how some people get a basal haplogroup? I thought you must have each mutation as time goes on

It means that this new sample (Sinai on the far right) is the child of E-Z813 but he is not the child of E-Y17859, E-Z22175, ancient Kenyan pastoralists and perhaps even the Nablus. It means E-Z813 had more sons than previously thought. I hope I have made sense. I can explain again.

 

[Step a side]

There's a new basal E-Z813 sample.

Although he didn't put a flag, he designated himself with avl, Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic, the dialect spoken by nomads in: the Sinai peninsula and the Negev desert.

It'd be interesting if he continues to be basal at E-Z813. In such a case there'd be two basal E-Z813 samples in the same general vicinity: Sinai and Nablus/Palestine. Along with the fleshed out subclades, E-Y17859 and E-Z21175, which have upstream samples in the Sinai, NW Saudi Arabia and Kuwait that run parallel to the Cushitic branches.

Of course there's obvious caveats such as: the lone Neolithic E-Z813 being a >3,000 year old Kenyan pastoralist; and E-Z813's sister clade E-Y28701 containing Saharans and early medieval Kulubnarti Nubians. Rather than a Sinai origin as the present DNA evidence suggests, it could simply be a case of under sampling of nomads from the eastern desert.

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Fantastic thread. I am of the opinion that it was further south and that these branches migrated there because we lack any form of Anatolian farmer genes that Levant Neolithic people had.

 

[daljirkadahsoon]

It means that this new sample (Sinai on the far right) is the child of E-Z813 but he is not the child of E-Y17859, E-Z22175, ancient Kenyan pastoralists and perhaps even the Nablus. It means E-Z813 had more sons than previously thought. I hope I have made sense. I can explain again.

View attachment 325804

Ok I understand that. What I don't get is how a currently living person can test only for a basal group don't genetic lineages always accumulate mutations over time?

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[Reformed J]

Distribution of Eastern Egyptian Bedawi Arabic

#8 below

While it looks to be contiguous in Sinai, Negev and southern Jordan; avl looks to have a variable presence in the eastern desert depending on which map you use.

 

[Step a side]

Ok I understand that. What I don't get is how a currently living person can test only for a basal group don't genetic lineages always accumulate mutations over time?

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I didn’t get the 1st part. You will only carry the same Y chromosome mutations your father, grandfather, great grandfather etc gave to you. If you are basal under a said branch like E-Z813 then it means you are a newly discovered “laf” (as they call it in Af Soomaali) of E-Z813. You do not belong to the other existing E-Z813 sub branches in other words.

The only major “Asian” genetic influx that came into Africa that affected the early proto Cushitic tribes is the Natufian related admixture. Other waves of admixtures did enter North East Africa as well starting with the Anatolian farmers during the Neolithic face followed by Iranian farmer + Caucuses HG admixture that entered Africa during the early copper age, Chalcolithic period so to speak.

Neither Iranian farmer + Caucuses HG nor Anatolian farmer gene had any impact on us. I believe because we were located on the desert near the Red Sea coast which was not an ideal place for these farmers to migrate into.

 

[BidaarBoy]

Fantastic thread. I am of the opinion that it was further south and that these branches migrated there because we lack any form of Anatolian farmer genes that Levant Neolithic people had.

Makes no sense, we have Anatolian ancestry via PPNB and subsequent Levantine groups, we prefer Anatolian carrying samples like Bronze Age Jordan over Natufians on Qpadm

 

[Step a side]

Makes no sense, we have Anatolian ancestry via PPNB and subsequent Levantine groups, we prefer Anatolian carrying samples like Bronze Age Jordan over Natufians on Qpadm

Show me. I’m yet to see Somalis with Anatolian ancestry. I keep hearing it only.

 

[BidaarBoy]

Show me. I’m yet to see Somalis with Anatolian ancestry. I keep hearing it only.

View attachment 325829

Throw in Yemeni Mahra and the recently released Neolithic Moroccans, they both score Anatolian ancestry and Somalis score them.

 

[BidaarBoy]

G25 is not very accurate especially when doing these kind of models lol, Eritreans here score 6% Iran/Chg and qpadm they are like 12% and have less Natufian, same with Somalis

 

[Step a side]

Throw in Yemeni Mahra and the recently released Neolithic Moroccans, they both score Anatolian ancestry and Somalis score them.
View attachment 325862

Nah that’s not how to go about with it. That’s forcing Anatolian farmer genes on Somalis due to poor proxies. Use the Natufians as reference including the Anatolian farmers. Watch and see then what happens.

G25 is not very accurate especially when doing these kind of models lol, Eritreans here score 6% Iran/Chg and qpadm they are like 12% and have less Natufian, same with Somalis

But yet other samples get Anatolian including Fulani and Tobou from west Africa. Somalis don’t have this.

 

[Step a side]

Well Fulani have berber admixture and to an extent so do the Toubou. Most berbers especially around the coast average at 40% while southerners tend to have around 30%.

That’s true and that’s why Anatolian farmer gene is easily picked up on calculators.

 

[Step a side]

It's quite divergent from other components, plus it's a eurasian component and due to SSA being very genetically divergent from SSA. It makes it much more easier to be picked up.

Exactly, Somalis don’t have Anatolian farmer ancestry. It would have been picked up on the calculator just like Fulani and Tobou. They force Anatolian farmer gene by using wrong proxies

 

[BidaarBoy]

Nah that’s not how to go about with it. That’s forcing Anatolian farmer genes on Somalis due to poor proxies. Use the Natufians as reference including the Anatolian farmers. Watch and see then what happens

I never said not to include Natufian, you can use Natufian too and you will still see Somalis score Yemeni and Neolithic Moroccan, who both carry ANF ancestry, you can literally check on G25 yourself

But yet other samples get Anatolian including Fulani and Tobou from west Africa. Somalis don’t have this

Again. G25 is not accurate for deeper modelling it is not informative for these things. Actual formal statistics consistently show Somalis score Levantine farmer ancestry. Natufians carry a lot of AHG-like ancestry which is related to ANF and account for everything that’s present in Somalis especially when you don’t use a North African source which is what you are doing. Your model is wrong and makes no sense given the archaeology

 

[Step a side]

I never said not to include Natufian, you can use Natufian too and you will still see Somalis score Yemeni and Neolithic Moroccan, who both carry ANF ancestry, you can literally check on G25 yourself

Again. G25 is not accurate for deeper modelling it is not informative for these things. Actual formal statistics consistently show Somalis score Levantine farmer ancestry. Natufians carry a lot of AHG-like ancestry which is related to ANF and account for everything that’s present in Somalis especially when you don’t use a North African source which is what you are doing. Your model is wrong and makes no sense given the archaeology

Keep it simple. Show me Anatolian farmer ancestry with Somalis the way we see it with Egyptians, Maghrebis etc.

 

[The alchemist]

What about these explanations:

Beja in Eastern Egypt sometimes speak the same as the Bedouin Arabs of the region who are tribally related to those Sinai Bedouins, and I think Bejas of the Eastern Egyptian desert might have mixed with them to some degree.

The second scenario is that "Eastern Egyptian Bedawi" can mean an Eastern Egyptian dweller of Bedawi origin since in the region 'Bedawi' is another name for Beja, who might or might not speak that dialect. So maybe that was what he picked to designate approximation rather than direct linguistic association.

Can you people contact the guy?

There is also the issue of contamination through trade, where some haplogroup from the Eastern Desert could have ended up in Sinai through the ancient Arab/Saracen contact because trade went through there.

 

[BidaarBoy]

Keep it simple. Show me Anatolian farmer ancestry with Somalis the way we see it with Egyptians, Maghrebis etc.

Bro what I literally just posted a screenshot of a QpAdm model, Somalis scored 14% PPNB, they carry ANF, scroll up it’s right there. I also said even on G25 Somalis score Neolithic Moroccan and Arabian ancestry even when Natufian is present

 

[Step a side]

Bro what I literally just posted a screenshot of a QpAdm model, Somalis scored 14% PPNB, they carry ANF, scroll up it’s right there. I also said even on G25 Somalis score Neolithic Moroccan and Arabian ancestry even when Natufian is present

Early Neolithic Moroccan is all IBM which we have ingrained in our DNA. Late Morrocan Neolithic is the one you need. That the one that has extremely high Anatolian farmer gene. Like I said show me Anatolian farmer gene without using Levant Neolithic proxy. Go ahead I will wait.

Basically use Anatolian farmer and Natufian and Levant Neolithic and then see which one Somalis prefer. I will teach you something.

 

[Slickster]

Exactly, Somalis don’t have Anatolian farmer ancestry. It would have been picked up on the calculator just like Fulani and Tobou. They force Anatolian farmer gene by using wrong proxies

Somalis do get ANF ancestry (albeit very low) when you use proto-Mota instead of Dinka (that for some reason or another obfuscates the ANF).

The fits are also way better and the results mirror what you see on formal runs (qpAdm)