qpGraph models of Tanzania_Luxmanda_3100BP

[EDsomali]

https://populationgenomics.blog/2019/04/20/tanzania_luxmanda_3100bp/

I think it's almost certain that Proto-Nilotes had some sort of ANA related admixture. Similarly, it seems that Dinka and Mota are quite closely related even admixture runs has a somewhat difficult time of differentiating the two. I think one of the proto-groups must have contributed to the other, leaning towards Proto-Nilotic contributing towards Proto-Mota a very long time ago.

 

[land owner]

So basically nilotes are elongated omotics and omotics are compressed nilotes

 

[Apollo]

So basically nilotes are elongated omotics and omotics are compressed nilotes

Too simplistic, imo. There's about 20,000 years of divergence between them. Perhaps they share ancestors, but they are not basically the same thing, IMO.

Moreover, the original Omotics were the same as the proto-Cushites..(North African-like) what people call Omotic is actually Paleo-Mota or something.

Perhaps when referring to the Paleo component people should use Motaic instead of Omotic.

 

[land owner]

Too simplistic, imo. There's about 20,000 years of divergence between them. Perhaps they share ancestors, but they are not basically the same thing, IMO.

Moreover, the original Omotics were the same as the proto-Cushites..(North African-like) what people call Omotic is actually Paleo-Mota or something.

Perhaps when referring to the Paleo component people should use Motaic instead of Omotic.

True I was just kidding around sxb lol

 

[Apollo]

True I was just kidding around sxb lol

I know, just wanted to coin a new term.

Some people also want Afro-Asiatic to be renamed Erythraeic (Red Sea-ic). It may be more accurate.

 

[land owner]

I know, just wanted to coin a new term.

Some people also want Afro-Asiatic to be renamed Erythraeic (Red Sea-ic). It may be more accurate.

Yea afro-asiatic is such a broad term erythraeic is more exact

 

[Apollo]

Yea afro-asiatic is such a broad term erythraeic is more exact

People with dyslexia will hate it though. :siilaanyolaugh:

 

[land owner]

People with dyslexia will hate it though. :siilaanyolaugh:

 

[Asrafael]

Motaics have something basal to South African, like 40-30%.

 

[Asrafael]

Too simplistic, imo. There's about 20,000 years of divergence between them. Perhaps they share ancestors, but they are not basically the same thing, IMO.

Moreover, the original Omotics were the same as the proto-Cushites..(North African-like) what people call Omotic is actually Paleo-Mota or something.

Perhaps when referring to the Paleo component people should use Motaic instead of Omotic.

Sounds better.

 

[EDsomali]

Motaics have something basal to South African, like 40-30%.

Where have you heard this sxb.

I heard they could be modelled 90% Basal Eurasian like and 10% related to a South African.

 

[Prince Abubu]

Where have you heard this sxb.

I heard they could be modelled 90% Basal Eurasian like and 10% related to a South African.

Who are Mota? And what have they got to do with Somalis?

 

[Nilotufian]

Wait-

If Proto-Omotics were North African like, who were the SSAs they mixed with to create today’s ones? A shared ancestor of West Africans perhaps??

 

[Apollo]

Wait-

If Proto-Omotics were North African like, who were the SSAs they mixed with to create today’s ones? A shared ancestor of West Africans perhaps??

The Mota types and all those related to him. Most Omotics are majority this (local Ethiopian hunter-gatherer) and not actually Afro-Asiatic.

But Omotics are diverse, some of them, like the Shinasha and Shekkacho cluster nearer to Agaws and Oromos than to their fellow Omotics.

Who are Mota? And what have they got to do with Somalis?

A 4,500 year old pre-Afro-Asiatic cave man/hunter-gatherer from Southwest Ethiopia who has been sequenced and is often used in studies.

 

[Asrafael]

Where have you heard this sxb.

I heard they could be modelled 90% Basal Eurasian like and 10% related to a South African.

Apologies, it's not necessarily basal to Sans, but something more basal than ANA-Eurasian-ancient EA. There are a billion possibilities about what it is, it can be between Mbuti and ANA-Eurasia-ancient East African, or Mbuti and San, or just both. But whatever it is, they are from being good representatives of ancient East Africans, because they clearly have large degree of ancestry from a early branch of humanity (in respect to the main bulk of contemporary human ancestry),

Some try-hard modeling has Mota with 40.5% San-like, and the Malawian hunter gatherers at around 60%, and 31.3% in the Tanzanian hunter gatherers. The amount of Mbuti-related ancestry in Mota, and the Tanzanian and Malawian hunter gatherers hasn't been measured yet, but it will be significant at least in the southeast Africans, not sure for Mota through. So don't take these numbers as hard facts. For all we know, Somalis could be at the 50% mark of Eurasian ancestry instead of the current 40ish %.

A not so bad fit for Mota

distance%=1.5989 / distance=0.015989 Mota Dinka 59.5 South_Africa_1300BP 40.5

In fact, in the paper you yourself shared discusses how different distinctive cultural complexes and their cave paintings in East-Southeast Africa dated to different periods had differences in how they depicted (presumably) themselves, with one tradition painting generalized human figures of a linear and rather tall build, where other complexes depicted humans more like recent San hunter gatherer cave paintings, showing traits that are more strongly associated with the San. And we already know Southeast African hunter gatherers were a 3-way mix between San-related, Mbuti-related, and ancient East African, and looked quite similar to Mota, and the Pontus paper had the closely related Tanzania 1400 hunter gatherer with with 31% San-like ancestry, with the remaining portion being mostly ancient East African. Also, the archeological record already shows a distinction between San-like group, and a much more lankier group who had some sort of cultural and likely ancestral connection with mesolithic northeast Africans such as the Qadan and wavy-line cultures.

So far we have an excellent series of ancient dna from Malawi through a 6-7,000 year transect of pre-Bantu hunter gatherers, who were mostly of San-like ancestry. They look like they similar amounts of ancient East African and Mbuti-related ancestry. Their pygmy-related ancestry of these Malawian hunter gatherers, especially Hora, were probably tied to the nature of southeast African culture complexes such as the Nachikufan (which the Hora samples belonged to, the others possibly), a culture which interacted forest hunter gatherers (who were probably ancestral/related
to Pygmies) around southern Congo. The Malawian hunter gatherers were all on a tripartite cline between Pygmy and San-related, and are remarkably homogeneous despite spanning 8,000 to 2,000 years, around 6-7,000 years. The ancient Malawians hunter gatherers mostly had South African related mtdna like L0k1 and L0d1, but also more southeast African l0f and L0a1. I think they largely had pygmy related ydna, since they don't have any L1. Most likely various subclades of B-M112.

 

[EDsomali]

Apologies, it's not necessarily basal to Sans, but something more basal than ANA-Eurasian-ancient EA. There are a billion possibilities about what it is, it can be between Mbuti and ANA-Eurasia-ancient East African, or Mbuti and San, or just both. But whatever it is, they are from being good representatives of ancient East Africans, because they clearly have large degree of ancestry from a early branch of humanity (in respect to the main bulk of contemporary human ancestry),

Some try-hard modeling has Mota with 40.5% San-like, and the Malawian hunter gatherers at around 60%, and 31.3% in the Tanzanian hunter gatherers. The amount of Mbuti-related ancestry in Mota, and the Tanzanian and Malawian hunter gatherers hasn't been measured yet, but it will be significant at least in the southeast Africans, not sure for Mota through. So don't take these numbers as hard facts. For all we know, Somalis could be at the 50% mark of Eurasian ancestry instead of the current 40ish %.

A not so bad fit for Mota

distance%=1.5989 / distance=0.015989 Mota Dinka 59.5 South_Africa_1300BP 40.5

In fact, in the paper you yourself shared discusses how different distinctive cultural complexes and their cave paintings in East-Southeast Africa dated to different periods had differences in how they depicted (presumably) themselves, with one tradition painting generalized human figures of a linear and rather tall build, where other complexes depicted humans more like recent San hunter gatherer cave paintings, showing traits that are more strongly associated with the San. And we already know Southeast African hunter gatherers were a 3-way mix between San-related, Mbuti-related, and ancient East African, and looked quite similar to Mota, and the Pontus paper had the closely related Tanzania 1400 hunter gatherer with with 31% San-like ancestry, with the remaining portion being mostly ancient East African. Also, the archeological record already shows a distinction between San-like group, and a much more lankier group who had some sort of cultural and likely ancestral connection with mesolithic northeast Africans such as the Qadan and wavy-line cultures.

So far we have an excellent series of ancient dna from Malawi through a 6-7,000 year transect of pre-Bantu hunter gatherers, who were mostly of San-like ancestry. They look like they similar amounts of ancient East African and Mbuti-related ancestry. Their pygmy-related ancestry of these Malawian hunter gatherers, especially Hora, were probably tied to the nature of southeast African culture complexes such as the Nachikufan (which the Hora samples belonged to, the others possibly), a culture which interacted forest hunter gatherers (who were probably ancestral/related
to Pygmies) around southern Congo. The Malawian hunter gatherers were all on a tripartite cline between Pygmy and San-related, and are remarkably homogeneous despite spanning 8,000 to 2,000 years, around 6-7,000 years. The ancient Malawians hunter gatherers mostly had South African related mtdna like L0k1 and L0d1, but also more southeast African l0f and L0a1. I think they largely had pygmy related ydna, since they don't have any L1. Most likely various subclades of B-M112.

Careful of using the 1300bp South African sample sxb.

It has a substantial about of Cushitic ancestry (45-60%).

Maybe that's the reason your Mota runs are showing so much South African like admixture.

 

[Asrafael]

Thanks for catching that. I will use the 2000-2100 year old South Africans. Here's with Malawi Fingira 2500BP -

Mota Dinka 73.33 Malawi-Fingira-2500BP 19.17 South-Africa-2000BP 7.5 Biaka 0

I added Malawi Fingira for a better fit. Here's what I have for Malawi Fingira -

Malawi-Fingira-2500BP Dinka 40 South-Africa-2000BP 30 South-Africa-2100BP 30

Here's the papers model -

Malawi_Fingira_2500BP 0.041801755 2 Dinka 35.0% 2.8% South_Africa_2000BP 65.0% 2.8% Mende

My models are not good enough, as it is underestimating South African ancestry by up to 10%.

This r-graph shows a heavy edge from Ju/'hoansi, who are the most unadmixed San (90% South Africa 2000bp)

This is their model -

Ju_hoan_North 0.050248981 2 South_Africa_2000BP 90.9% 1.2% Tanzania_Luxmanda_3100BP 9.1% 1.2%

I myself don't believe Mota is only ~30% more basally derived (relative to ancient East African), and this South African ancestry could have also brought some minor Mbuti-like ancestry that was present in the ancient southeast Africans.

 

[EDsomali]

Thanks for catching that. I will use the 2000-2100 year old South Africans. Here's with Malawi Fingira 2500BP -

Mota Dinka 73.33 Malawi-Fingira-2500BP 19.17 South-Africa-2000BP 7.5 Biaka 0

I added Malawi Fingira for a better fit. Here's what I have for Malawi Fingira -

Malawi-Fingira-2500BP Dinka 40 South-Africa-2000BP 30 South-Africa-2100BP 30

Here's the papers model -

Malawi_Fingira_2500BP 0.041801755 2 Dinka 35.0% 2.8% South_Africa_2000BP 65.0% 2.8% Mende

My models are not good enough, as it is underestimating South African ancestry by up to 10%.

View attachment 79666
This r-graph shows a heavy edge from Ju/'hoansi, who are the most unadmixed San (90% South Africa 2000bp)

This is their model -

Ju_hoan_North 0.050248981 2 South_Africa_2000BP 90.9% 1.2% Tanzania_Luxmanda_3100BP 9.1% 1.2%

I myself don't believe Mota is only ~30% more basally derived (relative to ancient East African), and this South African ancestry could have also brought some minor Mbuti-like ancestry that was present in the ancient southeast Africans.

The upcoming Shum Laka paper will reveal loads.

We could be in for a surprise.

 

[land owner]

Somalis could be at the 50% mark of Eurasian ancestry instead of the current 40ish %.

Are you making this assessment based on the possibility of our proto nilo ancestors having some ANA ancestry?

 

[Prince Abubu]

The Mota types and all those related to him. Most Omotics are majority this (local Ethiopian hunter-gatherer) and not actually Afro-Asiatic.

But Omotics are diverse, some of them, like the Shinasha and Shekkacho cluster nearer to Agaws and Oromos than to their fellow Omotics.



A 4,500 year old pre-Afro-Asiatic cave man/hunter-gatherer from Southwest Ethiopia who has been sequenced and is often used in studies.

So this hunter-gatherer cave man had ANA?