Probably the most important question on our ancient SSA nilotic ancestry

[MI]

That's just a prediction from a guy who won't even consider the archaeological record or the opinions of those who have studied it.

Buur Hakaba is hardly all Eyle. Even Buur Heybe is said to have only about 400 families left. How would you even begin to know if they were Eyle?

Let's get some proof before you claim vindication.

What about the other "A"?

I looked some more into this, and I’m wondering, have Eyle been tested for A-M13 & A-M28?

 

[Grant]

I looked some more into this, and I’m wondering, have Eyle been tested for A-M13 & A-M28?

As far as I am aware, the Eyle have not been tested for anything. Some random folks from Buur Hakaba would probably not be Eyle. I am not aware of A-M28. Do you have a link or more info?

I found Apollo's list of pre-Islamic haplotypes in Somalia. He said A- M13 and A-M32.

E-M35
E-M239
T-M70
A-M13
A-M32
J1
J2

 

[MI]

As far as I am aware, the Eyle have not been tested for anything. Some random folks from Buur Hakaba would probably not be Eyle. I am not aware of A-M28. Do you have a link or more info?

I found Apollo's list of pre-Islamic haplotypes in Somalia. He said A- M13 and A-M32.

E-M35
E-M239
T-M70
A-M13
A-M32
J1
J2

I found this image while reading about something else. I have no idea if it comes from a study or anything. You can try reverse searching it if you want.

 

[Apollo]

I looked some more into this, and I’m wondering, have Eyle been tested for A-M13 & A-M28?

A-M13 & A-M32(xM51) are Nilo-Saharan, not Khoisan. Nilotes got A from an over 70,000 year old migration of L0 and A from Southern Africa to Nile Valley/Eastern Africa.

The Khoisan carry A-L602 and A-M51.

The Paleolithic natives of Ethiopia and Somalia only carried basal versions of E like E-M329 and E-V16/E-M281, not A.

 

[MI]

A-M13 is Nilo-Saharan, not Khoisan. Nilotes got A from an over 70,000 year old migration of L0 and A from South Africa to East Africa.

The Khoisan carry A-L602 and A-M51.

The picture seems to be suggesting that A-M51 & A-M6 shares drift with A-M13 and A-M28 at least patrilineally of something ultimately basal to South Africans and Southeast Africans extending as far as Northern Kenya And Southern Somalia, no?

 

[Apollo]

The picture seems to be suggesting that A-M51 & A-M6 shares drift with A-M13 and A-M28 at least patrilineally of something ultimately basal to South Africans and Southeast Africans extending as far as Northern Kenya And Southern Somalia, no?

Paleolithic East Africa used to be only L6/L4/L3 in mtDNA (lineages close to the Out of Africa M & Ns). But after the Eurasians left East Africa there was a paleolithic migration of mt L0 and y A carriers from Southern Africa into the Nile Valley primarily. This happened 70,000-50,000 years ago. Nilotes evolved on and this is why they look nothing like the Khoisan despite sharing some ancient ties.

 

[MI]

Paleolithic East Africa used to be only L6/L4/L3 in mtDNA (lineages close to the Out of Africa M & Ns). But after the Eurasians left East Africa there was a paleolithic migration of mt L0 and y A carriers from Southern Africa into the Nile Valley primarily. This happened 70,000-50,000 years ago. Nilotes evolved on and this is why they look nothing like the Khoisan despite sharing some ancient ties.

You’re right, thanks, I looked it up. A-M13 is Nilotic from ancient Sudan. A-M28 seems restricted to small amounts in native Horners.

 

[Grant]

You’re right, thanks, I looked it up. A-M13 is Nilotic from ancient Sudan. A-M28 seems restricted to small amounts in native Horners.

Native Horners, including half a percent in Somalis?

https://www.somalispot.com/attachments/7090e66a-6c13-4098-833a-1eaf279e0a32-jpeg.73955/

 

[MI]

Native Horners, including half a percent in Somalis?

https://www.somalispot.com/attachments/7090e66a-6c13-4098-833a-1eaf279e0a32-jpeg.73955/

Relative to what in Eyle? It’s not an interesting statistic if it’s not relative to something greater.

 

[Grant]

That is presumably a nation-wide statistic. We don't even know at this point if the Eyle are A1b1b1. I think the Eyle could fall into an E1b or B1a/b subclade.

Here is Ehret: The Eastern Horn of Africa, 1000 BC to 1400 AD, in Ali Jimaale Ahmed, The Invention of Somalia, 1995, page 237 and footnote 9:

"The Evidence both from Dahalo and from proto-Southern Cushitic support the conclusion that the pre-Dahalo food collectors of the regions between the Jubba and Tana rivers spoke a language or languages of the Khoisan family...."

"Hunter-gatherers of the Berdaale archaeological tradition predominated, it appears, in such areas as those near Buurhakaba and Buurheybe, and also to the north and east of the Shabelle River, in the Mudug and Hawd regions. The Eyle may be their modern-day cultural and economic heirs."

"Other gatherer-hunters, of possibly a different cultural background from the Berdaale peoples, lived scattered among Dahaloan farmers and herders in southern parts of the riverine region of southern Somalia and also to the south of the Jubba River." ...."The Aweer, who today speak dialects of the Garre language, are their probable descendants."

"Finally, scattered all along the coasts of the Eastern Horn lived small communities specializing in fishing, presumably the cultural forbears of modern-day Reer Maanyo people."

 

[Apollo]

The Eyle are not even real hunter-gatherers. They have had agriculture since forever and only hunt as some kind of tradition/hobby thing. There is zero evidence that they will be anything deeply ancient there. It sounds more and more like they are a maroon Bantu community. In South America they have a bunch of ''hunting'' ex-slave blacks who ran away into the forests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(people)

They are also sandwiched in between the Jubba and Shabelle river. A region that has had millions of Bantu slaves.

Lastly, almost no anthropologists study them as they are not real hunter-gatherers unaffected by modernity.

Here they are listed as Bantu agriculturalists:

https://journals.openedition.org/etudesafricaines/2

Call me skeptical, but in my book the Eyle are Bantu mutts until proven otherwise.

 

[Grant]

The Eyle are not even real hunter-gatherers. They have had agriculture since forever and only hunt as some kind of tradition/hobby thing. There is zero evidence that they will be anything deeply ancient there. It sounds more and more like they are a maroon Bantu community. In South America they have a bunch of ''hunting'' ex-slave blacks who ran away into the forests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maroon_(people)

They are also sandwiched in between the Jubba and Shabelle river. A region that has had millions of Bantu slaves.

Lastly, almost no anthropologists study them as they are not real hunter-gatherers unaffected by modernity.

Here they are listed as Bantu agriculturalists:

https://journals.openedition.org/etudesafricaines/2

Call me skeptical, but in my book the Eyle are Bantu mutts until proven otherwise.

Really? Millions of slaves? Cassanelli estimates total slave imports from Zanzibar at 25-50,000, beginning in 1800, peaking in 1846 and ending with the Italians. About a hundred years.

Your Maroon analogy can only refer to the Gosha and Mushunguli.

"Somali Bantu" is an unfortunate term created by the aid agencies that includes more than just Bantu ex-slaves. Notice that the population figure estimated in 1970 for the Gosha/Mushunguli was 80.000, and the current estimate, despite severe losses in the civil war and several hundred thousand still in Kenya, is thought to be over a million. This is not because of some miracle of reproduction. It is because the Gabawiin, Shabelli, Makaane, Shidle. etc, who arrived with the Bantu expansion ( the Madowweyn) and now, apparently the Eyle, have become added to the ex-slave Gosha and Mushunguli figures. It isn't real, but is being pushed by Samaale supremicists.

There are actually a lot of small studies on the Eyle, just no DNA data. By the mid-twentieth century virtually all hunters had turned to cultivation or moved to cities. There is a significant community of Eyle now in Mogadisho, working as butchers. There is damn little game left to be hunted.

This is from one of the country studies

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/40.htm.

"Most non-Somali peoples were primarily cultivators, but some, like the Eyle, also hunted, something the Somalis would not do. A few groups, including the Boni, remained primarily hunters into the twentieth century and were accordingly looked down on by the Somalis. By midcentury most of these peoples had turned to cultivation, and some had moved into the towns and become laborers."

When actual data becomes available, there will be little question about the answers. In the meantime. I think it is best to hold off making too many stringent claims.

 

[MI]

Really? Millions of slaves? Cassanelli estimates total slave imports from Zanzibar at 25-50,000, beginning in 1800, peaking in 1846 and ending with the Italians. About a hundred years.

Your Maroon analogy can only refer to the Gosha and Mushunguli.

"Somali Bantu" is an unfortunate term created by the aid agencies that includes more than just Bantu ex-slaves. Notice that the population figure estimated in 1970 for the Gosha/Mushunguli was 80.000, and the current estimate, despite severe losses in the civil war and several hundred thousand still in Kenya, is thought to be over a million. This is not because of some miracle of reproduction. It is because the Gabawiin, Shabelli, Makaane, Shidle. etc, who arrived with the Bantu expansion ( the Madowweyn) and now, apparently the Eyle, have become added to the ex-slave Gosha and Mushunguli figures. It isn't real, but is being pushed by Samaale supremicists.

There are actually a lot of small studies on the Eyle, just no DNA data. By the mid-twentieth century virtually all hunters had turned to cultivation or moved to cities. There is a significant community of Eyle now in Mogadisho, working as butchers. There is damn little game left to be hunted.

This is from one of the country studies

http://countrystudies.us/somalia/40.htm.

"Most non-Somali peoples were primarily cultivators, but some, like the Eyle, also hunted, something the Somalis would not do. A few groups, including the Boni, remained primarily hunters into the twentieth century and were accordingly looked down on by the Somalis. By midcentury most of these peoples had turned to cultivation, and some had moved into the towns and become laborers."

When actual data becomes available, there will be little question about the answers. In the meantime. I think it is best to hold off making too many stringent claims.

It seems like there isn’t good evidence that you’re right, Grant, at least nothing solid. Why are you so passionate about this then? Also you just said about 25000-50000 slaves were traded in Zanzibar TOTAL and that is just decidedly wrong, I don’t even know what to say. A short google search would show you at least that number was traded EVERY YEAR for hundreds of years.

 

[Apollo]

Why are you so passionate about this then?

He's obsessed with Bantus and Benadiris. His agenda on here is generally anti-Somali.

 

[Grant]

It seems like there isn’t good evidence that you’re right, Grant, at least nothing solid. Why are you so passionate about this then? Also you just said about 25000-50000 slaves were traded in Zanzibar TOTAL and that is just decidedly wrong, I don’t even know what to say. A short google search would show you at least that number was traded EVERY YEAR for hundreds of years.

Cassanelli estimates total slave imports from Zanzibar at 25-50,000, beginning in 1800, peaking in 1846 and ending with the Italians. About a hundred years.

We are not talking about all slaves traded from Zanzibar, only those traded by Oman into Somalia. This only began in small numbers about 1800. The Omanis only moved the court to Zanzibar in ;the period 1832-1840. The trade into Somalia peaked in 1846, declined as the British forced the Omanis to stop by mid-century, and was eliminated by the Italians.

"During the period of Sultan Said ibn Sultan Al Said's rule (1806–1856), Oman cultivated its East African colonies, profiting from the slave trade. As a regional commercial power in the 19th century, Oman held territories on the island of Zanzibar off the coast of East Africa, the area along the coast of East Africa known as Zanj including Mombasa and Dar es Salaam, and until 1958 in Gwadar (in present-day Pakistan) on the coast of the Arabian Sea. But when the British declared slavery illegal in the mid-19th century, the sultanate's fortunes reversed. The economy collapsed, and many Omani families migrated to Zanzibar. The population of Muscat fell from 55,000 to 8,000 between the 1850s and 1870s. Most of the overseas possessions were seized by the United Kingdom and by 1850 Oman was an isolated and poor area of the world."

Check out the link.

http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Misc/True_Negros/Assorted/Oman_Zanzibar_Sultanate.htm

Also check this out:

http://discoveringbristol.org.uk/sl...nvolved/east-indies/east-african-slave-trade/

The East African slave trade differed from the West African and may not have been what you are thinking.

 

[Grant]

He's obsessed with Bantus and Benadiris. His agenda on here is generally anti-Somali.

There are attitudes on this site that support expelling the Bantus and Benadiris. I consider it a worthwhile project to point out that certain of the Minorities preceded the Samaale migrations and also have land claims. There is archaeological evidence that (Bantu) Sabaki speakers got as far north as Gezira, as part of the Bantu Expansion, before being pushed back south by Oromo and Somaloid stocks coming from the north and west. The largest single archaeological excavation in the country, The Bur Ecological and archaeological Project (BEAP), explores the Buur Heybe remains going back 20,000 years.

I am not anti-Somali. I am anti-false Samaale claims intended to deny other Somalis their legitimate heritage. Claiming these folks are extinct, or that their claims are worthless because they were once slaves, does not get it with me. Among other things, the Eyle defeated the Jidle, Maadanle and Ajuraan and were a major Geledi ally; and the Gosha beat the socks off the combined Ogaden and kept them away from the Jubba until the Italians came along.

I put Samaale Supremicism in the same boat with White Supremicism, and it offends me.

 

[Apollo]

There are attitudes on this site that support expelling the Bantus and Benadiris. I consider it a worthwhile project to point out that certain of the Minorities preceded the Samaale migrations and also have land claims. There is archaeological evidence that (Bantu) Sabaki speakers got as far north as Gezira, as part of the Bantu Expansion, before being pushed back south by Oromo and Somaloid stocks coming from the north and west. The largest single archaeological excavation in the country, The Bur Ecological and archaeological Project (BEAP), explores the Buur Heybe remains going back 20,000 years.

I am not anti-Somali. I am anti-false Samaale claims intended to deny other Somalis their legitimate heritage. Claiming these folks are extinct, or that their claims are worthless because they were once slaves, does not get it with me. Among other things, the Eyle defeated the Jidle, Maadanle and Ajuraan and were a major Geledi ally; and the Gosha beat the socks off the combined Ogaden and kept them away from the Jubba until the Italians came along.

I put Samaale Supremicism in the same boat with White Supremicism, and it offends me.

Every single Somali Bantu has slave trade associated ancestry, it doesn't matter if a tiny portion of their ancestry got their voluntarily. They all have mixed with enslaved Bantus, so all Somali Bantus DO descend from foreign slaves.

As for Benadiris. They are a bunch of Gujarati-South-Semitic-Swahili mutts who do not have any rightful claims to Somalia over ''Samaales''.

Again you ruined a thread with your annoying Bantu and Benadiri obsession.

 

[Apollo]

@Grant

Kindly stop with your Bantu derailments. This thread is about the African ancestry of ethnic Somalis (of Cushitic origin). Bantus are off-topic to this discussion and are not of any relevance to us.

 

[MI]

There are attitudes on this site that support expelling the Bantus and Benadiris. I consider it a worthwhile project to point out that certain of the Minorities preceded the Samaale migrations and also have land claims. There is archaeological evidence that (Bantu) Sabaki speakers got as far north as Gezira, as part of the Bantu Expansion, before being pushed back south by Oromo and Somaloid stocks coming from the north and west. The largest single archaeological excavation in the country, The Bur Ecological and archaeological Project (BEAP), explores the Buur Heybe remains going back 20,000 years.

I am not anti-Somali. I am anti-false Samaale claims intended to deny other Somalis their legitimate heritage. Claiming these folks are extinct, or that their claims are worthless because they were once slaves, does not get it with me. Among other things, the Eyle defeated the Jidle, Maadanle and Ajuraan and were a major Geledi ally; and the Gosha beat the socks off the combined Ogaden and kept them away from the Jubba until the Italians came along.

I put Samaale Supremicism in the same boat with White Supremicism, and it offends me.

I’m not as knowledgeable as you when it comes to recent Somali history or at all perhaps, and I am Jidle myself and never heard of the Eyle or their victories but your response to overwhelming Somali nationalism, so starved in the diaspora, is to what amount to historical revision with an clear agenda.

Don’t you start throwing names at me to try and paint a consensus that doesn’t exist either.