Possible Survival of punt and early sabaic trade

[Midas]

So I was thinking about punt and then I was wondering about exactly how long it survived after the famous hatsheput trade. Then when I looked it up on Wikipedia expeditions to punt apparently went on even till the 20th dynasty and rhey speculate it ended sometime before the collapse of the new kingdom.

So were talking about somewhere between 1150-1070. Then I remebred the sabean inscription found in puntland which is dated to the end of the 8th century b.c to early 7th century b.c so somewhere in the early 700s b.c for a middle date. And what did the sabeans go there for ? Incense. So I think my point should be obvious by now. We're looking at a 300-400 year gap. Between the last eygptian-punt trade and this sabaic trade. Also keep in mind that if you take into account the fact that this trade had probaly been going for a long time before it was worth the sabaean ruling elites to sponsor this expedition and build a temple. then we could be looking at a much smaller gap of maybe a 100-200 years or possibly a trade that never stopped but merely shifted partners.

@NidarNidar @Idilinaa @Shimbiris @Emir of Zayla @The alchemist

 

[Midas]

Makes me wonder if the trade never fully died but merely became smaller than did punt maintain any political continuity for way longer than we have any record for ?

 

[Barkhadle1520]

So I was thinking about punt and then I was wondering about exactly how long it survived after the famous hatsheput trade. Then when I looked it up on Wikipedia expeditions to punt apparently went on even till the 20th dynasty and rhey speculate it ended sometime before the collapse of the new kingdom.
View attachment 366994
So were talking about somewhere between 1150-1070. Then I remebred the sabean inscription found in puntland which is dated to the end of the 8th century b.c to early 7th century b.c so somewhere in the early 700s b.c for a middle date. And what did the sabeans go there for ? Incense. So I think my point should be obvious by now. We're looking at a 300-400 year gap. Between the last eygptian-punt trade and this sabaic trade. Also keep in mind that if you take into account the fact that this trade had probaly been going for a long time before it was worth the sabaean ruling elites to sponsor this expedition and build a temple. then we could be looking at a much smaller gap of maybe a 100-200 years or possibly a trade that never stopped but merely shifted partners.

@NidarNidar @Idilinaa @Shimbiris @Emir of Zayla @The alchemist

Your mistake is in thinking punt is a kingdom

 

[Midas]

Your mistake is in thinking punt is a kingdom

It obviously was to some extent. In the mid 1500s when kerma invaded eygpt one of the other groups mentioned who helped in thr invasion was punt. Theres also the fact that about a century later hatsheputs expedition mentions a queen ati and a king parehu.

But im honestly more interested in the culutral continuity. The fact that we have only 300-400 years between the last eygptian account of punt and the building of a temple and sending of an expedition by the sabean rulers for incense is to me the most definitive proof you can possibly get outside of actually digging up anicent eygptian artifacts.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

It obviously was to some extent. In the mid 1500s when kerma invaded eygpt one of the other groups mentioned who helped in thr invasion was punt. Theres also the fact that about a century later hatsheputs expedition mentions a queen ati and a king parehu.

But im honestly more interested in the culutral continuity. The fact that we have only 300-400 years between the last eygptian account of punt and the building of a temple and sending of an expedition by the sabean rulers for incense is to me the most definitive proof you can possibly get outside of actually digging up anicent eygptian artifacts.

No it was not, it was literally just the egyptian name for the region that Periplus would name as Barbaria 1000 years later

An inscription for Ramses 3 even says "the countries of punt"

Claiming it was a kingdom is stupid, what kind of kingdom lasts from 3000BC up to 100BC (last mention during ptolemaic egypt)

 

[Midas]

No it was not, it was literally just the egyptian name for the region that Periplus would name as Barbaria 1000 years later

An inscription for Ramses 3 even says "the countries of punt"
View attachment 367007

Claiming it was a kingdom is stupid, what kind of kingdom lasts from 3000BC up to 100BC (last mention during ptolemaic egypt)

Who the hell said it was a single kingdom lasting 3 thousand years? I simply rejected your claim that there was never a kingdom.
Do you realize how big the difference between those two positions are.

 

[Barkhadle1520]

Who the hell said it was a single kingdom lasting 3 thousand years? I simply rejected your claim that there was never a kingdom.
Do you realize how big the difference between those two positions are.

I think there was never a kingdom then, it was always just city states competing for trade

 

[Midas]

Also instead of engaging with what I'm saying why do you keep creating these fake strawman claims .

 

[Midas]

I think there was never a kingdom then, it was always just city states competing for trade

What is your obsession with this city state vs kingdom distinction? Also if their was never a kingdom who where the eygptians talking abkut when they mentioned a queen atiya and king parehu ?

 

[Barkhadle1520]

What is your obsession with this city state vs kingdom distinction? Also if their was never a kingdom who where the eygptians talking abkut when they mentioned a queen atiya and king parehu ?

They were the chiefs of the place they visited, and at that time I dont even think it was city states but just tribes, no stone dwellings or cities even drawn by the egyptians but only huts

 

[Midas]

When you consider how southern eritea and djbouti are essentially deserts. Its not surprising that if punt was originally part of the gash culutre. They would quickly migrate past these areas into northern somalia looking for greener lands.

 

[Xareen]

It obviously was to some extent. In the mid 1500s when kerma invaded eygpt one of the other groups mentioned who helped in thr invasion was punt. Theres also the fact that about a century later hatsheputs expedition mentions a queen ati and a king parehu.

But im honestly more interested in the culutral continuity. The fact that we have only 300-400 years between the last eygptian account of punt and the building of a temple and sending of an expedition by the sabean rulers for incense is to me the most definitive proof you can possibly get outside of actually digging up anicent eygptian artifacts.

It was a proto-state with its putative 'capital' at Mahal Teglinos. Not a kingdom in the same way Egypt or Kerma or anything of the like was. Punt cultural horizon fell off by New Kingdom with Jebel Mokram invaders and with the region becoming more arid. Collapse of Bronze Age trading networks where they presumably sourced all their bronze and whatnot was the nail in the coffin and what allowed for Sabaeans to all but invade.

Think it's time we establish that Punt proper wasn't located in Somalia, nor are we the only or rightful heirs of Punt. We can probably claim Wawat before we can claim Punt, in all honesty. Gash region was always a Central Cushitic hotspot, afaic. Our expansion into Somali peninsula c. mid-2nd mill BC meant that the trade links between our ancestors who had just migrated down the Atbara expanded simultaneously into Somalia, but to say Punt = Somalia is a bit of a stretch and quite tired atp.

Culturally, though, yeah we're probably the most like the Puntites. At least the seafaring mercantile, city-building class. Genetically too, probably. They were probably just like that one Roman mercenary found in Serbia. But we aren't the heirs of Punt. Punt is kinda lame anyways ngl, C-Group no diffs.

On Kerma's invasion, that probably supports a more northerly location of Punt. It wasn't limited to trade, they also possibly held (non-nominal, but not exactly a tributary, probably) control over Punt. They even had Punt scenes a la Deir el-Bahri frescoes in their tomb chapels, possibly suggesting they held sway over them. That they could levy their forces makes me think they really did xoog them niggas.

 

[Emir of Zayla]

There is a possibility of some political centralization in the ancient Somali city-states

Ancient Harbours of Northern Somalia and Colonial Anti-African Historiography - by Prof. Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis

We referred to the Ancient Greek text 'Periplus of the Red Sea', which consists in a valuable information about all the coastal countries of the 'Red Sea' (Erythra Thalassa in Greek), a geographic term that in the Antiquity denoted

www.academia.edu

 

[Diophantus]

Thought punt was in eritrea? Am really not trolling, would appreciate any of the history people's input on this.

Did punt even exist? If yes, where was it located in? Some say eritrea, some say northern somalia, etc. Are there written records of it? From what i've gathered, it seems to have existed but very little is known about it. This leads to every "research" that's been done on it to be riddled with the biases of the researcher. So if you are somali, you pick the sources that say it was in somlia. Similarly if you are eritrean, you pick the ones that say it was in eritrea?

Kinda confusing and frustrating.

 

[Guure⁸]

Thought punt was in eritrea? Am really not trolling, would appreciate any of the history people's input on this.

Did punt even exist? If yes, where was it located in? Some say eritrea, some say northern somalia, etc. Are there written records of it? From what i've gathered, it seems to have existed but very little is known about it. This leads to every "research" that's been done on it to be riddled with the biases of the researcher. So if you are somali, you pick the sources that say it was in somlia. Similarly if you are eritrean, you pick the ones that say it was in eritrea?

Kinda confusing and frustrating.

It stretched from northern Somalia all the way to Eritrean coast some say it reached jeddah saudi but the whole thing is a bit blury

 

[Midas]

It was a proto-state with its putative 'capital' at Mahal Teglinos. Not a kingdom in the same way Egypt or Kerma or anything of the like was. Punt cultural horizon fell off by New Kingdom with Jebel Mokram invaders and with the region becoming more arid. Collapse of Bronze Age trading networks where they presumably sourced all their bronze and whatnot was the nail in the coffin and what allowed for Sabaeans to all but invade.

Think it's time we establish that Punt proper wasn't located in Somalia, nor are we the only or rightful heirs of Punt. We can probably claim Wawat before we can claim Punt, in all honesty. Gash region was always a Central Cushitic hotspot, afaic. Our expansion into Somali peninsula c. mid-2nd mill BC meant that the trade links between our ancestors who had just migrated down the Atbara expanded simultaneously into Somalia, but to say Punt = Somalia is a bit of a stretch and quite tired atp.

Culturally, though, yeah we're probably the most like the Puntites. At least the seafaring mercantile, city-building class. Genetically too, probably. They were probably just like that one Roman mercenary found in Serbia. But we aren't the heirs of Punt. Punt is kinda lame anyways ngl, C-Group no diffs.

On Kerma's invasion, that probably supports a more northerly location of Punt. It wasn't limited to trade, they also possibly held (non-nominal, but not exactly a tributary, probably) control over Punt. They even had Punt scenes a la Deir el-Bahri frescoes in their tomb chapels, possibly suggesting they held sway over them. That they could levy their forces makes me think they really did xoog them niggas.

Im just gonna clear this up becuase I think people keep misunderstanding me. Im not claiming Punt was from the first time it was mentioned in eygptian sources in 2500 b.c to its last mention in 1100s b.c was located only in somalia. Nor was there some eternal state that lasted 1,000 years ruling over it.

 

[Midas]

It was a proto-state with its putative 'capital' at Mahal Teglinos. Not a kingdom in the same way Egypt or Kerma or anything of the like was. Punt cultural horizon fell off by New Kingdom with Jebel Mokram invaders and with the region becoming more arid. Collapse of Bronze Age trading networks where they presumably sourced all their bronze and whatnot was the nail in the coffin and what allowed for Sabaeans to all but invade.

I dont think we can really make much of a comparison between the people at mahal teglinos and Kerma. Since barely any archeology has actually been done at mahal Teglinos compared to kerma.

Second kerma was obviously far closer in societal complexity to the gash group since we dont see any usage of writing even though they bordered and carried out intense trade with eygpt.

 

[Midas]

Thought punt was in eritrea? Am really not trolling, would appreciate any of the history people's input on this.

Did punt even exist? If yes, where was it located in? Some say eritrea, some say northern somalia, etc. Are there written records of it? From what i've gathered, it seems to have existed but very little is known about it. This leads to every "research" that's been done on it to be riddled with the biases of the researcher. So if you are somali, you pick the sources that say it was in somlia. Similarly if you are eritrean, you pick the ones that say it was in eritrea?

Kinda confusing and frustrating.

There was probably never a state that ruled from eritrea all the way down to northern somalia. People dont seem to realize that if you look at the geography of the region that the afar region in eritrea is basically one giant desert and one of the hottest places on earth. Your not gonna have a state that passed through this region especially with how much more primitive the technology and social organization was back then .

One thing we can confidently say is that incense which punt was likley since the middle kingdom sourced from somalia. Just like it has been for the last 3 thosuand years and even till today.