Origins of the Semites

[Menelik III]

Uhhhh...., No. Please read back through the thread. What I said was "The Beta Israel descend from the Jews of Axum. They are the people of Eldad the Danite, from the land beyond the river of Kush, mentioned in the Bible."

The Ethiopic languages are Semitic, and divide the Cushitic languages in the Sudan from those further east and south in the Horn. The area has clearly been a route of migration between Africa and Asia for millennia.

Where do you believe the probable location of pnt is?

 

[Apollo]

Grant, as far as I'm aware, the lemba people have T-M70. Why would that be a sign of Cohenim ancestry? Aren't the Cohenim all J1 carriers?

They have this special type of T1b that is found among Ashkenazi Jews and is weirdly connected to them all the way in South Africa and not found much in between the two.

Haplogroups are more complicated than they seem at face value. You have to look at subclades.

 

[Grant]

Where do you believe the probable location of pnt is?

The most recent work connects Punt to the Gash culture in central eastern Sudan, with a port between Tokar and Port Sudan on the Red Sea coast.

http://www.ancientsudan.org/history_17_punt.html

 

[Menelik III]

The most recent work connects Punt to the Gash culture in central eastern Sudan, with a port between Tokar and Port Sudan on the Red Sea coast.

http://www.ancientsudan.org/history_17_punt.html

I don't believe sites that look like that. The gash culture And ona group are in present day Eritrea. Pnt probably stretched from eri-Sudan-ethio border.

 

[Grant]

I don't believe sites that look like that. The gash culture And ona group are in present day Eritrea. Pnt probably stretched from eri-Sudan-ethio border.

I suppose you like this site better:

http://www.shabait.com/about-eritrea/art-a-sport/1533-the-land-of-punt-is-eritrea-part-ii

"The land of Punt was home to various incense-bearing trees (Boswellia and commiphera, which thrive on low rainfall), Dom-palms, and species of hard, black trees called heben in Egyptian, the origin of the word "ebony." Visitors to punt had encountered panthers, cheetahs, monkeys and baboons (the latter on dry hills), as well as giraffes and rhinoceroses, animals that dwelled in the plains. Gold also came from Punt, in the middle of summer; rain fall on the mountain of Punt only in the miraculous form of veritable deluges. These details gleaned from texts enable us to locate the famous shores of punt and their vast inter land. The land called punt included a desert region and a Sahelian region between the 22nd and the 18th longitude lines parallel to the North. The south of Punt might have included the present-day province of Kassala and the north of Eritrea. To the west and the northwest, an indefinable border separated it from Kush and the land of the Medjoi (roughly Etbaya)."

The Gash culture had a capitol in Eritrea, but the source of most of the products associated with Punt was in the Sudan. The Gash/Kassala archaeological sites are in both countries, but the bulk of the recent work is being done in the Sudan.

http://opar.unior.it/460/1/AMReport_Eng.pdf

 

[Grant]

They have this special type of T1b that is found among Ashkenazi Jews and is weirdly connected to them all the way in South Africa and not found much in between the two.
Haplogroups are more complicated than they seem at face value. You have to look at subclades.

Check this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(mtDNA)

Phylogenetic tree of human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups

Mitochondrial Eve (L)
L0 L1–6
L1 L2 L3 L4 L5 L6
M N
CZ D E G Q O A S R I W X Y
C Z B F R0 pre-JT P U
HV JT K
H V J T

 

[Menelik III]

Check this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J_(mtDNA)

Phylogenetic tree of human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups

Mitochondrial Eve (L)
L0 L1–6
L1 L2 L3 L4 L5 L6
M N
CZ D E G Q O A S R I W X Y
C Z B F R0 pre-JT P U
HV JT K
H V J T

Where do they get the basis for ancient Jewish ancestry anyways? I don't believe the Jews of Europe were originally Jewish but converted during the mid evil times.

 

[Grant]

Where do they get the basis for ancient Jewish ancestry anyways? I don't believe the Jews of Europe were originally Jewish but converted during the mid evil times.

Are you thinking of the Khazars and the Ashkenazim? This study found only 50% European admixture and no Khazar DNA. Koestler's 13th tribe theory has not been confirmed.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-ashkenazi-jews-dna-diseases-20140909-story.html

"Despite their close ties with Europe, no more than half of their DNA comes from ancient Europeans, the researchers found. Only 46% to 50% of the DNA in the 128 samples originated with the group of people who were also the ancestors of the Flemish people in the study. Those ancient people split off from the ancestors of today’s Middle Easterners more than 20,000 years ago, with a founding group of about 3,500 to 3,900 people, according to the study.

The rest of the Ashkenazi genome comes from the Middle East, the researchers reported. This founding group “fused” with the European founding group to create a population of 250 to 420 individuals. These people lived 25 to 32 generations ago, and their descendants grew at a rate of 16% to 53% per generation, the researchers calculated."

 

[Menelik III]

Are you thinking of the Khazars and the Ashkenazim? This study found only 50% European admixture and no Khazar DNA. Koestler's 13th tribe theory has not been confirmed.

http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-ashkenazi-jews-dna-diseases-20140909-story.html

"Despite their close ties with Europe, no more than half of their DNA comes from ancient Europeans, the researchers found. Only 46% to 50% of the DNA in the 128 samples originated with the group of people who were also the ancestors of the Flemish people in the study. Those ancient people split off from the ancestors of today’s Middle Easterners more than 20,000 years ago, with a founding group of about 3,500 to 3,900 people, according to the study.

The rest of the Ashkenazi genome comes from the Middle East, the researchers reported. This founding group “fused” with the European founding group to create a population of 250 to 420 individuals. These people lived 25 to 32 generations ago, and their descendants grew at a rate of 16% to 53% per generation, the researchers calculated."

I meant have they sequenced original Hebrew Jewish DNA? Because I'm sure most of the HOA has connections to the ME as well.

 

[Grant]

I meant have they sequenced original Hebrew Jewish DNA? Because I'm sure most of the HOA has connections to the ME as well.

I think you are right about the Horn and the Middle East. But keep in mind that Joseph married Asenath of Egypt and Moses had a non-Jewish wife. Einstein was B1b1b. Also, that some conversions to Judaism are multiple thousands of years old.

I would check the Cohen study in my answer to Prince Abubu. Then there is this:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-genetics/

https://geneticliteracyproject.org/...-jewish-roots-of-beta-israel-ethiopian-jewry/

 

[Joesph Muktaar]

according to Genesis Shem was in between Ham and Japeth.

 

[Joesph Muktaar]

What are you on about? Axum is in northern Ethiopia. Kush is in the Sudan. The Lemba are mixed with Bantu, but that is about the extent of that connection. The other lost/found Jewish populations also mixed with local populations at about the same percentages. The Buba clan of the Lemba carries 53% Cohen markers, which is definitive. This does not indicate a Bantu or Niger-Congo presence in the Horn. The negroid tribes of the Horn, such as the Ari, came from the Sahara.

Wrong According to Imam at tabaraka kush is in Ethiopia not Sudan Nubia and Zanj came from sudan

 

[DeathWish]

Ancient Egyptian is a Northern Cushitic language just like the Beja language which is also divergent from other Afro Asiatic languages. The Beja are from Egypt and they used to be known as the Medjay clan. They were considered Nubian at first, but then they slowly integrated into Egypt.

Ancient Egypt was surrounded by Cushitic languages from the East (Arabia), South (Nubia/Sudan) and South East (Punt).

"According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the Kerma (Nubia) peoples spoke Afro-Asiatic languages of the Cushitic branch."
"The languages are spoken in the ancient Kerma Culture (present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan) also belonged to the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic languages."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerma_Culture

"Additionally, Militarev identified a Cushitic substratum in Modern South Arabian, which he proposes is evidence that Cushitic speakers originally inhabited the Arabian Peninsula alongside Semitic speakers (Militarev 1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003). According to Václav Blažek, this suggests that Semitic peoples assimilated their original Cushitic neighbors to the south who did not later emigrate to the Horn of Africa. He argues that the Levant would thus have been the Proto-Afro-Asiatic Urheimat, from where the various branches of the Afro-Asiatic family subsequently dispersed. To further support this, Blažek cites the analysis of rock art in Central Arabia by Anati (1968, 180-84), which notes a connection between the shield-carrying "oval-headed" people depicted on the cave paintings and the Arabian Cushites from the Old Testament, who were similarly described as carrying specific shields."

http://www.phil.muni.cz/jazyk/files/AAmigrationsCORR.pdf

Egypt's first King ruled from Nubia.

"Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty."

https://oi.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/special-exhibits/nubia-salvage-project-1

Wrong According to Imam at tabaraka kush is in Ethiopia not Sudan Nubia and Zanj came from sudan

Adeer, Ethiopia stole its name from Sudan. Sudan's old names were Ethiopia, Kush, and Nubia.

 

[Joesph Muktaar]

Ancient Egyptian is a Northern Cushitic language just like the Beja language which is also divergent from other Afro Asiatic languages. The Beja are from Egypt and they used to be known as the Medjay clan. They were considered Nubian at first, but then they slowly integrated into Egypt.

Ancient Egypt was surrounded by Cushitic languages from the East (Arabia), South (Nubia/Sudan) and South East (Punt).

"According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the Kerma (Nubia) peoples spoke Afro-Asiatic languages of the Cushitic branch."
"The languages are spoken in the ancient Kerma Culture (present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan) also belonged to the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic languages."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerma_Culture

"Additionally, Militarev identified a Cushitic substratum in Modern South Arabian, which he proposes is evidence that Cushitic speakers originally inhabited the Arabian Peninsula alongside Semitic speakers (Militarev 1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003). According to Václav Blažek, this suggests that Semitic peoples assimilated their original Cushitic neighbors to the south who did not later emigrate to the Horn of Africa. He argues that the Levant would thus have been the Proto-Afro-Asiatic Urheimat, from where the various branches of the Afro-Asiatic family subsequently dispersed. To further support this, Blažek cites the analysis of rock art in Central Arabia by Anati (1968, 180-84), which notes a connection between the shield-carrying "oval-headed" people depicted on the cave paintings and the Arabian Cushites from the Old Testament, who were similarly described as carrying specific shields."

http://www.phil.muni.cz/jazyk/files/AAmigrationsCORR.pdf

Egypt's first King ruled from Nubia.

"Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty."

https://oi.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/special-exhibits/nubia-salvage-project-1


Adeer, Ethiopia stole its name from Sudan. Sudan's old names were Ethiopia, Kush, and Nubia.

Ok

 

[Menelik III]

Ancient Egyptian is a Northern Cushitic language just like the Beja language which is also divergent from other Afro Asiatic languages. The Beja are from Egypt and they used to be known as the Medjay clan. They were considered Nubian at first, but then they slowly integrated into Egypt.

Ancient Egypt was surrounded by Cushitic languages from the East (Arabia), South (Nubia/Sudan) and South East (Punt).

"According to Peter Behrens (1981) and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst (2000), linguistic evidence indicates that the Kerma (Nubia) peoples spoke Afro-Asiatic languages of the Cushitic branch."
"The languages are spoken in the ancient Kerma Culture (present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan) also belonged to the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic languages."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerma_Culture

"Additionally, Militarev identified a Cushitic substratum in Modern South Arabian, which he proposes is evidence that Cushitic speakers originally inhabited the Arabian Peninsula alongside Semitic speakers (Militarev 1984, 18-19; cf. also Belova 2003). According to Václav Blažek, this suggests that Semitic peoples assimilated their original Cushitic neighbors to the south who did not later emigrate to the Horn of Africa. He argues that the Levant would thus have been the Proto-Afro-Asiatic Urheimat, from where the various branches of the Afro-Asiatic family subsequently dispersed. To further support this, Blažek cites the analysis of rock art in Central Arabia by Anati (1968, 180-84), which notes a connection between the shield-carrying "oval-headed" people depicted on the cave paintings and the Arabian Cushites from the Old Testament, who were similarly described as carrying specific shields."

http://www.phil.muni.cz/jazyk/files/AAmigrationsCORR.pdf

Egypt's first King ruled from Nubia.

"Most surprising, evidence that early pharaohs ruled in A-Group Nubia was discovered by the Oriental Institute at Qustul, almost at the modern Sudanese border. A cemetery of large tombs contained evidence of wealth and representations of the rulers and their victories. Other representations and monuments could then be identified, and in the process, a lost kingdom, called Ta-Seti or Land of the Bow, was discovered. In fact, the cemetery at Qustul leads directly to the first great royal monuments of Egypt in a progression. Qustul in Nubia could well have been the seat of Egypt's founding dynasty."

https://oi.uchicago.edu/museum-exhibits/special-exhibits/nubia-salvage-project-1


Adeer, Ethiopia stole its name from Sudan. Sudan's old names were Ethiopia, Kush, and Nubia.

The land of pnt is in Ethiopia.

 

[Grant]

The land of pnt is in Ethiopia.

That's quite an assertion. Now all you need is a link to a great new study or a really brilliant argument. What you got?

 

[osman]

The original Cushites of the kerma culture are Nilotic people biblical Ethiopia is Sudan and they have y haplogroup A and B.

 

[Thegoodshepherd]

Tbh, what you've posted just seems to suggest that Egyptian is pretty standalone..Afro-Asiatic studies needs more research as it is one of the most divergent families. Outside of really primitive and basic concepts such as grammatical tense and phonology, Cushitic and other Afro-Asiatic languages have very little indication of having much to do with eachother.

Afro Asiatic is the oldest confirmed language family. Some linguist I have read suggest PAA was spoken more than 15,000 years ago. That is plenty of time for extreme divergence to occur. I am surprised that any relationship was discovered. AA, especially the Semitic branch, seem to be fairly conservative. Japonic and Korean are probably branches of some ancient language family, but they have diverged so much that a link can not be established. The AA languages avoided this because they were lucky enough to have been some of the first human languages to be written down.

 

[Nilotufian]

The original Cushites of the kerma culture are Nilotic people biblical Ethiopia is Sudan and they have y haplogroup A and B.

Nubians were Nilotic and from Sudan sure. The original Cushites however were never black to begin with.

 

[osman]

What

Nubians were Nilotic and from Sudan sure. The original Cushites however were never black to begin with.

What do you mean? Also Cushitic and Kushitic are two different things.