Origin Of Haplogroup T Found

There is a big chance it was a Fertile Crescent type Y-DNA. LN/CA/BA, somewhere west-central, north of Arabia.

It makes sense if we strictly go from these simplified assumptions, working ourselves from down the tree of other clades upward:

T-Y28692 seems like a European Jewish lineage with several assimilates.

Moving upstream, we encounter the Yemeni subclade, T-FTC43481 under T-Y28685 (common parent to the aforementioned European Jewish lineage). Now, there is a mistake in thinking the Jewish European sub goes to Yemen (in terms of geographic origin). Instead, there is a common ancestor, T-Y10641, that contains a diversity of various Arabian (incl. Yemen) haplogroups, listing a European Jewish signature, Egyptian, Iraqi, and Turkey as well. Factoring in the diversified base of T-Y10641, rationally we can assume this is an out-stream point of both T-Y28685 and its under-relations (European Jewish and Yemeni) in an impressively coherent manner, meaning geographic derivative variable. Now the thing with T-Y10641 is it is not the major sub-tree. Above it, there is, T-Y18956, which entails Sardinian (Italian) sibling lineage that has a common parent with T-Y10641 at T-Y18956, then this lineage shares a mutational progenitor with a Scottish individual (T-Z19971*) at T-Z19971. This last one formed at the time of T-Y16897 TMCRA, the parent clade of all.

Already accounting for a sensible heuristic with the constraints, we can infer a geographic spread point somewhere in the Fertile Crescent. What strengthens this further is the rest of the clades on the Y-Full. Namely the Arabian-Somali sibling lineage, T-Y45591, that automatically necessitates an overall geographic picture of centralized migrational accessibility to Arabia, plus, East, West, and North - as we observe the results of.

Then to see the strength of this, one notices that this observation is an apt characterization of the other broader branches within T-L208 showing the same broader tendencies, revealing how all the facts align. Haplogroup T-Z19971 is from somewhere in west-central Fertile Crescent similar to T-L208, but interestingly it seems that it formed in the same broader area until the rest spread from there. The same can be said about T-Y45591, where the overwhelming Somali T haplogroup belongs, but the genesis of TMRCA temporally in 2800 ybp was in Arabia.

This means T-L208 and T-Y16897 had to be somewhere central that could spread into northern Africa, Anatolia, Arabia, and Mesopotamia. The only place for that is to emphasize west-central Fertile Crescent.

The majority of that has to be in Syria.

I conclude my position on this from now on, that where Somali haplogroup T came from before it was in its Arabian context, was Syria. I don't think it has anything to do with Zagros or deep into Mesopotamia (they also got it from the Syrian area, not talking about anything upstream from T-L208). That hypothesis makes absolutely no sense from the evidence we're seeing according to the distributional nature of the clades.

From a time-perspective picture, you had the Neolithic Farmer context in the northern Levant. Then you had the formation of the Arabian-Somali parental clade during the Neolithic-Chalcolithic transition (technically early Copper Age, but some places transitioned earlier) probably in that very same region. When they, exactly, migrated into Arabia is not easy to say between 6800 to 2800 years BP, but it is a big possibility that a considerable part of those 4000 years between was spent in the Syrian region.

Haplogroup T1a1a was found in those Bronze Age Ebla folks, and you had it in Chalcolithic Levant and T1 in PPNB. This is an open and shut case. No more is this a mystery.

The Somali T comes from serious Semitic stock probably related to Eblaite peoples or one of those influential groups in the Syrian region, regardless, essentially a native lineage of that region since the Neolithic and Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. Then they lived in Arabia between 800 to a couple of thousand years (because not sure when T-Y45591 migrated to the Arabian Peninsula between 6800-2800 years BP (guessing 1000-2000 years, maybe due to later so-called BA Collapse?)), and then they came to the promising northern Somali shores some 2000 years ago.
 
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mohammdov

Hansare Iyo baarsare
But there are other branches of T-Y16897 It is spread in Yemen. Perhaps the migration from the Levant was older. Semitic shepherds began in present-day Jordan, and I believe T-somalis came from there After thousands of years, and the main reason was that Yemen was struck by drought and the Ma’rib Dam collapsed 1800 years ago, then they often arrived.
 
But there are other branches of T-Y16897 It is spread in Yemen. Perhaps the migration from the Levant was older. Semitic shepherds began in present-day Jordan, and I believe T-somalis came from there After thousands of years, and the main reason was that Yemen was struck by drought and the Ma’rib Dam collapsed 1800 years ago, then they often arrived.
I accounted for the other Yemeni haplogroup in broad forms if you follow my inspections above. It's pretty robust.
 

mohammdov

Hansare Iyo baarsare
I accounted for the other Yemeni haplogroup in broad forms if you follow my inspections above. It's pretty robust.
Yes,
and Did you also notice that Somalis with haplogroup J-p58 and Few others with E-m84 They all came 2 thousand years ago. It seems that there was a large migration at that time, but in the end it is the genes and those who carry T succeeded in passing on their genes while the others failed, so they are not many.
 
Even more basal samples of T than the T-M70* of Ain Ghazal/PPNB were found in Neolithic Bulgaria (Varna 43, T-M184*) and Roman era Granada (Plaza Einstein 4055, T-L490*); and a sister clade in Neolithic Germany (Karsdorf 797, T-M70*). I know you're focusing on T-L208 but what's the chances T-M184 is an Anatolian farmer lineage?

Is that what you were getting at here?
From a time-perspective picture, you had the Neolithic Farmer context in the northern Levant. Then you had the formation of the Arabian-Somali parental clade during the Neolithic-Chalcolithic transition (technically early Copper Age, but some places transitioned earlier) probably in that very same region.
 
Yes,
and Did you also notice that Somalis with haplogroup J-p58 and Few others with E-m84 They all came 2 thousand years ago. It seems that there was a large migration at that time, but in the end it is the genes and those who carry T succeeded in passing on their genes while the others failed, so they are not many.
The J types are Mehri types, no? There was an Carab Saalax brother here a while back with that haplogroup. I think his TMCRA was around that time (probably a couple of hundred years younger).

The place was popping with trade, you know. I guess some people heard things were great across the pond and thought to take a chance.
 
Even more basal samples of T than the T-M70* of Ain Ghazal/PPNB were found in Neolithic Bulgaria (Varna 43, T-M184*) and Roman era Granada (Plaza Einstein 4055, T-L490*); and a sister clade in Neolithic Germany (Karsdorf 797, T-M70*). I know you're focusing on T-L208 but what's the chances T-M184 is an Anatolian farmer lineage?

Is that what you were getting at here?
From the time picture I referred to which was T-L208 (Formed 12kya and TMRCA 8400bp) and down, I would expect it to be in the Northern Levant. This includes parts of southern Turkey since Anatolia is technically north of that. But that region had interconnectivity before "civilization" so people did move and you had a convergence of people, ideas, and stuff. But I am pretty confident it is in the Syrian region, mainly.

I was not talking about the origin of the whole major-clade haplogroup by the way (it becomes a totally different topic since it decentralizes the matter at hand completely), only what is relevant to Somali history and the immediate Neolithic geographic and temporal vicinity that can be inferred directly related. But the origins of haplogroup T upstream from all of this, which is a bit un-focused, so I left it out, could in large parts ultimately source from somewhere in Turkey. But that is kind of not so relevant here, if you know what I mean since we're practically going into hunter-gatherer age by then.

But even then, you can also use the same migrational centralized principles and come to something that roughly correlates so probably existed around that area for a very long time maybe broaden the horizon a bit though. To reiterate; it's a different beast as we're talking about hunter-gatherers, a different world entirely.

If you want to go really into the Stone Age, who knows? That haplogroup just seems like a broad Near Eastern thing, right? T-M184 is, what? 40-50 kya BP? That's too far back for this thread. Hunter-gatherers in those days used to take a stroll from Iran to Anatolia in 2 days, light jog, and do some hunting. Just dub it Near Eastern. The accuracy of those deeper times is not practical or relevant to anything from the early Neolithic and down.

The headline of this thread is not about the major clade although I wrote it that general.:icon lol: I only meant for Somali history back beyond Arabia to the Neolithic, Copper Age, and Bronze Age which was mainly in modern geographic Syria.
 

Sophisticate

~Gallantly Gadabuursi~
Staff Member
I'll let my father know that he's related to people who sacrificed children to Northwestern Semitic pantheons, i.e. Baal/Molech, later imported to Pre-Islamic Mecca as Hubal. :ftw9nwa: Then, crossed the Bab El Mandeb thereafter.

Ey hoobaalaayow, Hoo Baal
Ey Hoobaalaayow, Hoyee,
Hoo Baalle

Figure It Out What GIF by CBC

It's adding up now.
 
I'll let my father know that he's related to people who sacrificed children to Northwestern Semitic pantheons, i.e. Baal/Molech, later imported to Pre-Islamic Mecca as Hubal. :ftw9nwa: Then, crossed the Bab El Mandeb thereafter.

Ey hoobaalaayow, Hoo Baal
Ey Hoobaalaayow, Hoyee,
Hoo Baalle

Figure It Out What GIF by CBC

It's adding up now.
Hey, maybe the Somali ancestors were righteous, partially in some ages, at least.:icon lol:
 

mohammdov

Hansare Iyo baarsare
The J types are Mehri types, no? There was an Carab Saalax brother here a while back with that haplogroup. I think his TMCRA was around that time (probably a couple of hundred years younger).

The place was popping with trade, you know. I guess some people heard things were great across the pond and thought to take a chance.
No I mean that appeared among some gabooye and Warsangli It's old
 
No I mean that appeared among some gabooye and Warsangli It's old
I know what you mean with the Warsangeli and Somalis here and there. Gaboye might be something else than just the random Antiquity Arabians you see with the rest. Seems too outlier-ish, synonymous with sub-identity, if you know what I mean. But that is too much to go into and deviates a bit. Maybe another thread, sxb.
 
From the time picture I referred to which was T-L208 (Formed 12kya and TMRCA 8400bp) and down, I would expect it to be in the Northern Levant. This includes parts of southern Turkey since Anatolia is technically north of that. But that region had interconnectivity before "civilization" so people did move and you had a convergence of people, ideas, and stuff. But I am pretty confident it is in the Syrian region, mainly.

I was not talking about the origin of the whole major-clade haplogroup by the way (it becomes a totally different topic since it decentralizes the matter at hand completely), only what is relevant to Somali history and the immediate Neolithic geographic and temporal vicinity that can be inferred directly related. But the origins of haplogroup T upstream from all of this, which is a bit un-focused, so I left it out, could in large parts ultimately source from somewhere in Turkey. But that is kind of not so relevant here, if you know what I mean since we're practically going into hunter-gatherer age by then.

But even then, you can also use the same migrational centralized principles and come to something that roughly correlates so probably existed around that area for a very long time maybe broaden the horizon a bit though. To reiterate; it's a different beast as we're talking about hunter-gatherers, a different world entirely.

If you want to go really into the Stone Age, who knows? That haplogroup just seems like a broad Near Eastern thing, right? T-M184 is, what? 40-50 kya BP? That's too far back for this thread. Hunter-gatherers in those days used to take a stroll from Iran to Anatolia in 2 days, light jog, and do some hunting. Just dub it Near Eastern. The accuracy of those deeper times is not practical or relevant to anything from the early Neolithic and down.

The headline of this thread is not about the major clade although I wrote it that general.:icon lol: I only meant for Somali history back beyond Arabia to the Neolithic, Copper Age, and Bronze Age which was mainly in modern geographic Syria.
Fair enough my guy. I believe the Somali T-L208 is Levantine too especially considering the presence of the bronze age Levantine Semitic maternal linage HV1b1 in Somalis that seems to have come from Yemen a couple thousand years ago. I also think K1a12a, U3a and possibly R0a1a came with these T individuals to the horn.
 
There is a big chance it was a Fertile Crescent type Y-DNA. LN/CA/BA, somewhere west-central, north of Arabia.

It makes sense if we strictly go from these simplified assumptions, working ourselves from down the tree of other clades upward:

T-Y28692 seems like a European Jewish lineage with several assimilates.

Moving upstream, we encounter the Yemeni subclade, T-FTC43481 under T-Y28685 (common parent to the aforementioned European Jewish lineage). Now, there is a mistake in thinking the Jewish European sub goes to Yemen (in terms of geographic origin). Instead, there is a common ancestor, T-Y10641, that contains a diversity of various Arabian (incl. Yemen) haplogroups, listing a European Jewish signature, Egyptian, Iraqi, and Turkey as well. Factoring in the diversified base of T-Y10641, rationally we can assume this is an out-stream point of both T-Y28685 and its under-relations (European Jewish and Yemeni) in an impressively coherent manner, meaning geographic derivative variable. Now the thing with T-Y10641 is it is not the major sub-tree. Above it, there is, T-Y18956, which entails Sardinian (Italian) sibling lineage that has a common parent with T-Y10641 at T-Y18956, then this lineage shares a mutational progenitor with a Scottish individual (T-Z19971*) at T-Z19971. This last one formed at the time of T-Y16897 TMCRA, the parent clade of all.

Already accounting for a sensible heuristic with the constraints, we can infer a geographic spread point somewhere in the Fertile Crescent. What strengthens this further is the rest of the clades on the Y-Full. Namely the Arabian-Somali sibling lineage, T-Y45591, that automatically necessitates an overall geographic picture of centralized migrational accessibility to Arabia, plus, East, West, and North - as we observe the results of.

Then to see the strength of this, one notices that this observation is an apt characterization of the other broader branches within T-L208 showing the same broader tendencies, revealing how all the facts align. Haplogroup T-Z19971 is from somewhere in west-central Fertile Crescent similar to T-L208, but interestingly it seems that it formed in the same broader area until the rest spread from there. The same can be said about T-Y45591, where the overwhelming Somali T haplogroup belongs, but the genesis of TMRCA temporally in 2800 ybp was in Arabia.

This means T-L208 and T-Y16897 had to be somewhere central that could spread into northern Africa, Anatolia, Arabia, and Mesopotamia. The only place for that is to emphasize west-central Fertile Crescent.

The majority of that has to be in Syria.

I conclude my position on this from now on, that where Somali haplogroup T came from before it was in its Arabian context, was Syria. I don't think it has anything to do with Zagros or deep into Mesopotamia (they also got it from the Syrian area, not talking about anything upstream from T-L208). That hypothesis makes absolutely no sense from the evidence we're seeing according to the distributional nature of the clades.

From a time-perspective picture, you had the Neolithic Farmer context in the northern Levant. Then you had the formation of the Arabian-Somali parental clade during the Neolithic-Chalcolithic transition (technically early Copper Age, but some places transitioned earlier) probably in that very same region. When they, exactly, migrated into Arabia is not easy to say between 6800 to 2800 years BP, but it is a big possibility that a considerable part of those 4000 years between was spent in the Syrian region.

Haplogroup T1a1a was found in those Bronze Age Ebla folks, and you had it in Chalcolithic Levant and T1 in PPNB. This is an open and shut case. No more is this a mystery.

The Somali T comes from serious Semitic stock probably related to Eblaite peoples or one of those influential groups in the Syrian region, regardless, essentially a native lineage of that region since the Neolithic and Chalcolithic to Bronze Age. Then they lived in Arabia between 800 to a couple of thousand years (because not sure when T-Y45591 migrated to the Arabian Peninsula between 6800-2800 years BP (guessing 1000-2000 years, maybe due to later so-called BA Collapse?)), and then they came to the promising northern Somali shores some 2000 years ago.
Does Somalis have the most T haplogroup in Horn of Africa ?
 

Yami

4th Emir of the Akh Right Movement
What’s the percentage of other horners ethics got it ? And are they releated(came in the same time as the Somalis ) ?
I'm not sure the exact percentages of other horn groups but I do know it's very langaab in their ethnicites. Defonittly a minority haplogroup.

& their subclades came at complexly different times then the one's found in Somalis. Somali T is relatively recent in comparison.
 
I'm not sure the exact percentages of other horn groups but I do know it's very langaab in their ethnicites. Defonittly a minority haplogroup.

& their subclades came at complexly different times then the one's found in Somalis. Somali T is relatively recent in comparison.
its mostly those neighboring the somali's , aka afars and oromos, in small percentages like 5%, obviously due to absorbition
 
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