Ok well while it’s interesting this clade is in an Ethiopian it is still on the majority line of Somalis under T-Y16897 . Most likely repressing very ancient migrations back to Arabia from Horn of Africa being ancestral to some no Arabs/Horn-descended Arabs
GENETICS New result in Ethiopia changes the origins of Somalis how have haplogroup T
- Thread starter moosaid
- Start date
@Midas @Shimbiris @NidarNidar
Yoy may find these explantions interesting for how a small patrilineal lineage could slowly grow into 10%-15% of the Somali population.
Source: Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland in the Middle Ages
Assume that all lineages are sharing a mating pool. If one lineage has a reproductive advantage of just 14% per generation (e.g advantaged lineage has a TFR of 2.28 each generation while all other lineages have a TFR of 2), then 3% of all the lineages sharing a mating pool will go extinct each generation. Differentials in reproductive success REALLY snowball when you are living in a steady state Malthusian society. Remember all human societies were Malthusian and spent something like 90% of their history at the steady state (Malthusian equilibrium) where population is static.
Add in the fact that bride price and polygyny were universal among Cushitic peoples, and it is all but guaranteed that some lineages would gain an advantage and their share of the population would grow, even in the absence of any violence.
This is a brilliantly researched article, they cite I.M Lewis’ seminal paper Force and Fission in Northern Somali Lineage Structure.
Source: Patrilineal segmentary systems provide a peaceful explanation for the post-Neolithic Y-chromosome bottleneck
Yoy may find these explantions interesting for how a small patrilineal lineage could slowly grow into 10%-15% of the Somali population.
Source: Gaelic and Gaelicised Ireland in the Middle Ages
Assume that all lineages are sharing a mating pool. If one lineage has a reproductive advantage of just 14% per generation (e.g advantaged lineage has a TFR of 2.28 each generation while all other lineages have a TFR of 2), then 3% of all the lineages sharing a mating pool will go extinct each generation. Differentials in reproductive success REALLY snowball when you are living in a steady state Malthusian society. Remember all human societies were Malthusian and spent something like 90% of their history at the steady state (Malthusian equilibrium) where population is static.
Add in the fact that bride price and polygyny were universal among Cushitic peoples, and it is all but guaranteed that some lineages would gain an advantage and their share of the population would grow, even in the absence of any violence.
This is a brilliantly researched article, they cite I.M Lewis’ seminal paper Force and Fission in Northern Somali Lineage Structure.
Source: Patrilineal segmentary systems provide a peaceful explanation for the post-Neolithic Y-chromosome bottleneck
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MacrobianTeera
Pro Arabism
This isn’t definitive evidence for anything.
MacrobianTeera
Pro Arabism
It wasn’t one single back to africa migration, they already know it was more saxibA small group who may very well have brought huge cultural change to the region such as camel pastoralism, asiatic admixture in our bovines and caprines and maybe even iron metallurgy. Leaving behind just a Y-DNA—if indeed those innovations were all brought by one group which I admit is just a guess based on timing—is frankly lightweight in terms of influence. They otherwise left nothing behind other than maybe OSA loanwords:
2013 Strata in Semitic loanwords in Northern Somali
2013 Strata in Semitic loanwords in Northern Somaliwww.academia.edu
And the thing is, Somalis are a patrilineal tribal society like Peninsular Arabs, Pashtuns and the early Indo-Europeans. It's not hard for one lineage among several to just become overrepresented due to a founder-effect cos of one prominent chieftain or tol having a bit of political dominance for a time or whatever other reasoning one can cook up.
Arabians' actual ancestors definitely had a shit-ton of E-M35, T, J2 and many other lineages but that pastoralist patrilineal system did its work and over-repped J1 in various areas. I wouldn't take T's dominance in a good chunk of the northwest as a sign that there were actually A LOT of Arabians who spread it once upon a time.
Arabsiyawi
HA Activist.
The sample you are referring to is actually from a Saudi man. He also uploaded his results on Yfull and is the newest addition to the tree.
Some people already pointed it out, but the Ethiopian flag on the page is due to the existence of a sample positive for this branch. It is absent from the tree because it isn't BigY upgraded.
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You don’t need to genetically replace an entire group to make them speak your language. The Romans, British and Arabs are good examples.
Proably unlikely since my family is from sanaag. But I honestly have no idea since ive never taken one of those dna test stuff.
I wouldn't completely rule it out maybe even haplogroup J honestly. Since both sides of my family were the type who lived near the cost and who did buisness in Yemen and visited/lived their since before the british arrived.
Ok i dont really care about whatever tribe you come from but based on your answer i already can make a strong guess. How can you speak for people about their T origins when you haven’t even done a dna test yourself. I feel like you did and you’re hiding it but it’s whatever. At this point youre just disturbing peoples research with you "somali chauvinism”
What do you mean "somali chauvinism" this is literally a somali forum. I just said its unlikely because most somalis are e-v32 so if I did that dna test i would most likely also just be e-v32 . And its not like im hiding that I'm warsangeli.
I have matched qitha T Warsangeli, on average I wouldn't be surprised especially if northern clans get10 to 15% T, its just how confederations work.
Im quoting you on saying the that somewhere. Also so what if its a somali forum im saying you have an agenda to undermine T origin in northern clans.
Not all somalis have somali origins compared to majority like arab salah. One thing i respect is at least they know who they are which is unfortunate for T people as they got their lineage erased. And for you to somalize them due to your patriotism is not professional. You speak from personal opinions and not strong evidence. My point is people who carry a young mutation of T in this region are not the same and they definitely aren’t of cushitic origin.
I think thats for sure possible. But my sub branch of warsangeli as far as I know is one of the core sub branches .
I think you have it twisted. Im pretty sure most somali clans with the haplogroup t would be very offended if you said their not true somalis.
Out of respect for this thread i wont derail but in relation to this thread i will say that its something that is obvious even arabs from y full acknowledge this i would say they are of hejazi origin or tihama based on y full as well as two makkan samples coming up now as the upstream of their mutation. Until we get more results its a strong case that they arrived post islam.
First the fact that one member is claiming descendants from aqeel abi talib and another who is in tue azd tribe. Yet they do not meet somalia mutation of T until between 2300-1600 years ago.
Especially with a zaylai nisba its strong evidence for something that cannot be ignored. And the Bedouin lactase persistence mutation in the north also showing connections.
I also find it a strange coincidence how the first people who converted to islam were dir people who overwhelmingly carry T.
And the fact that history isaaq lived on the coast and only expanded inland a few hundred years ago.
Surre people only left the eastern region of the north a few hundred years ago.
Surre and northern dir mutations ranged from 2000-1200 years ago. I am strongly supporting the case that their common ancestor was post islamic hence why dir is known to make dawah to the other somali clans (i know islam reached Mogadishu as well but thats not the point of the thread talk
based on human behaviour foreigners almost always settle on the coast and move inland later on. Northern dir members tombs like issa and samaroon are also near the coast. Supporting the coastal origin.
what is unsure is the origins of where T landed either in zeila or sanaag its the difficult part. Based on theory i would say zeila as that is most likely where some sahaba landed when making hijra to Ethiopia.
@NidarNidar what do you think about all that i have mentioned
What the hell are you talking about? You're acting as though some ancient Somali state came in and "Somalized" them and forcefully imposed a foreign identity on them and like they're still somehow distinct from other Somalis. They are literally identical to all other Somalis in terms of their actual overall ancestry (autosomal DNA). They also speak a mere dialect of Somali, practice the same religion within the same school of said religion, show all the typical coastal Cushitic/Somali customs and behaviors and they themselves recount themselves as tribally a Somali people and have for centuries upon centuries.
What's happened with them is the equivalent of some Somali guy hopping on over to Oman (more Somalis went to Southern Arabia during the Early Modern era than vice versa) 2,000+ years ago then took an Omani/Arabian wife, assimilated to the local Southern Arabian culture and then his descendants essentially became Omanis in everything but Y-DNA in the coming 2,000 years. 100% Omani autosomal profile, only speaking Arabic and/or like one of the MSA languages, identical customs to nearby Omanis and so on. To babble about these people "not being Omanis" because of a haplogroup is peak modern pop-genetics obsessed autistic behavior and I don't even mean that derogatorily; that's honestly all I can characterize it as.
For God's sake, this literally happened all over the world. Somalis are actually out of the norm by only having 2 dominant Y-DNA lineages. E-Z813 at 60-75%, T-L208 at 15-25% and then J-P58 and A-M13 at around 2-5% then a bunch of other rare markers like E-M84 etc. Most ethnic groups have a wide variety of Y-DNA lineages at notable frequencies as all modern Human groups are more or less the result of admixture. It would be ridiculous to then turn around and start recounting every ethnic group as "ethnically diverse" in their origins like J-P58 Amharas are the "true Semites" and A-M13 Amharas are "Nilo-Saharans" or whatever other bullshit framing. They all share a common origin in their actual overall ancestry (auDNA) as well as the same culture, customs and phenotype. And all Amharas are pretty much within the same range for actual South-Arabian ancestry, regardless of who has a paternal South-Arabian lineage or not. Peak autism, wallahi.
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The same principle of linguistic and cultural assimilation overriding ancient paternal markers that applies to Amhara J lineage Semitization of haplogroup E or A indigenous groups and for example Benadiri historically are non-Somali lineage assimilation into Somali culture can be applied to the T-L208 haplogroup in the Somali population although benadiris aren’t fully assimilated they will be over time because thats what happens and somali society has always been discriminative of distinct groups in some way be it oromos (understandable) or anyone else m
The T-L208 Case is similar to J-P58
You noted that the Somali population is dominated by E-V32(60–75%) and T-L208 (15–25%). Yes? So obviously EV32 is the original somalis and they have deep roots in Africa. T is clearly a foreigner and he had his own culture i would argue that it was more recent and he was an arab belonging to an arab tribe that exists today. Lineage is important to know. But it was erased to fit into this somali society as is common in human society.
T-Y16897 lineage has a Middle Eastern origin which expanded out of the yemen or hejaz. Its presence is exclusive to somalia and has no historic sites in africa is seen as a signature of prehistoric or early historic gene flow across the Red Sea, independent of the earlier Semitic-speaking migrations (like the J-P58 in Ethiopia).
E-Z813 This is a highly dominant and indigenous lineage of the Horn of Africa, associated with the primary ethnogenesis of the Cushitic-speaking groups, including the majority of Somalis.
Just as the Amhara population is a ancient where the J lineage represents an intrusive element that imposed a language, the Somali population's T-Y16897 lineage represents a different, likely much later intrusive element from West Asia.
The descendants of the T-Y16897 founders were completely assimilated by the larger, dominant Cushitic-speaking population EV32 as is the case with arab salah a few hundred years and T Over a thousand years, they fully adopted the Cushitic language somali culture, and way of life. I can argue ive even see kids with somali mothers almost always identify as somali so clearly the mother has a strong influence on the child. Especially an arab arriving in somalia or a few arabs T was the successful lineage.
Through continuous intermarriage, the descendants of the patriarchs acquired an autosomal DNA profile that is indistinguishable from the majority E-V32Somalis
The idea that a Somali today who speaks Somali and practices all Somali customs, is not truly Somali because his paternal line is T-L208 is possible . His identity is defined by the culture and language yes so he inherited, not the single ancestor that gave him his Y-chromosome. So in a sense then arab salah are somali. Because they don’t speak mahra or arabic. Arab identity is through language and culture however you can still have foreign roots and i believe it was recent for T somalis
Also you need to chill out you getting too emotional over my response
Not all Gadabuursi are Samaroon but all Samaroon are Gadabuursi(one of the 9 sons of Madaluug Dir), not a lot of people are privy but the current formation of Gadabuursi, with the two branches; Habar Afan and Habar Makadur includes 3/4 sons of Samaron and his 4 brothers.
Imam 'Ali Si'id was always and fighting on western flank in the armies of Se'ad ad-Din towards the end of the 14th century, between Si'id and Madaluug there is an unknown gap in history, T-BY181210 formed 2,300 years ago, but tmcra of 1600 years, so all , so all Surre, Cisse, Gadabuursi and T Isaaq had a common ancestor
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Dir lived as far as what you call Awash, before it's name change, it was called Wabiga Dir, not that far off from Addis, just going off, there is a huge gap between 4th century AD and early medieval period, even prior to that, we don';t know much from 3rd century ce and 4th ad century besides it being the last common ancestor timeline.
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The difference is T lineages arrived before "Somali identity" it was in the proto stage and help form what we know now as Somali, so can't be taken into the same conversation, and it was a family unit not a single man.
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