"Madkhalis"- Sheikh Fawzan Weighs in

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

Loool, what do you think is causing that?

And no, i'm just against demonizing them when our people were for almost all known history. They have always been good muslims upholding the Sunnah and are not the weird extreme types usually found in South Asia people think of when they hear Sufi.

Most of our grandparents at least have Sufi tendencies even if they dont realize or call themselves it.

You sure about that

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Pretty these aren’t practices from the sunnah or any of the companions

 

[Omar del Sur]

I dont even think anyone is referring to the actual scholars when they're speaking about them.

They're referring to those who identify themselves as Salafis @Omar del Sur

This thread is specifically about Sheikh Madkhali. I don't think there's any such thing as a Madkhali movement and I don't think there are any scholars who say "I am a Madkhali".

People are talking about Madkhalism. It can't even be established from them what that even means. What right do people have to attack a scholar they've never studied? It seems these people have never actually read anything by Madkhali yet they are attacking him.

This is crazy. People have to actually read Madkhali before they're qualified to critique him.

 

[Omar del Sur]

"@ibn Yahya Al-Sooli

You've basically led this anti-"Madkhakli" thing and you seem to be objecting with those reaction. Which of Madkhali's works have you read and what are your criticisms of his works that you've studied?"

Ibn, why haven't you responded to this? You don't want to admit that you've led a wave of attacking a scholar whose work you've never read? Why don't you answer the question.

If your position is that you can critique a scholar without having ever studied any of his work then you should come and say that openly instead of avoiding the question as though you want to hide that you've never actually read any of Madkhali's work.

 

[Omar del Sur]

"The Muslim should not speak about anything of which he does not have sufficient knowledge, or anything of which he does not remember the details correctly, or anything of which he has no knowledge. Rather he should speak – if he does speak – on the basis of knowledge, otherwise remaining silent is safer. Allah does not require him to speak on the basis of speculation or suspicion, which is the falsest of speech, or to speak of that of which he does not have sufficient knowledge."

The basic principle concerning the Muslim’s speech is that it should be truthful and honest; he should not speak on the basis of speculation, or about that of which he has no knowledge - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

 

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

"The Muslim should not speak about anything of which he does not have sufficient knowledge, or anything of which he does not remember the details correctly, or anything of which he has no knowledge. Rather he should speak – if he does speak – on the basis of knowledge, otherwise remaining silent is safer. Allah does not require him to speak on the basis of speculation or suspicion, which is the falsest of speech, or to speak of that of which he does not have sufficient knowledge."

The basic principle concerning the Muslim’s speech is that it should be truthful and honest; he should not speak on the basis of speculation, or about that of which he has no knowledge - Islam Question & Answer

islamqa.info

@Lum @nomadicblood why dont you guys educate the brother whether he can take fatwas from islamqa.

 

[embarassing]

This thread is specifically about Sheikh Madkhali. I don't think there's any such thing as a Madkhali movement and I don't think there are any scholars who say "I am a Madkhali".

People are talking about Madkhalism. It can't even be established from them what that even means. What right do people have to attack a scholar they've never studied? It seems these people have never actually read anything by Madkhali yet they are attacking him.

This is crazy. People have to actually read Madkhali before they're qualified to critique him.

I understand that, but when people use that word they're not speaking of the scholar but many who profess to follow him. A distinct type of Salafi.

 

[embarassing]

You sure about that

Spoiler

You don't have permission to view the spoiler content. Log in or register now.

Pretty these aren’t practices from the sunnah or any of the companions

Its a practice they do to remember Allah swt, no one claimed it Sunnah.

 

[Omar del Sur]

I understand that, but when people use that word they're not speaking of the scholar but many who profess to follow him. A distinct type of Salafi.

Is there any one example of a scholar who calls himself a Madkhali? Just one example of a scholar who calls himself that.

 

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

"@ibn Yahya Al-Sooli

You've basically led this anti-"Madkhakli" thing and you seem to be objecting with those reaction. Which of Madkhali's works have you read and what are your criticisms of his works that you've studied?"

Ibn, why haven't you responded to this? You don't want to admit that you've led a wave of attacking a scholar whose work you've never read? Why don't you answer the question.

If your position is that you can critique a scholar without having ever studied any of his work then you should come and say that openly instead of avoiding the question as though you want to hide that you've never actually read any of Madkhali's work.

Wallahi I will respond give me time and I will show you from his own works that rabee al Madkhali is one of the biggest munafiqs living today ya jahil, no doubt he is the cobra head of this cult!

 

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

Its a practice they do to remember Allah swt

@embarassing these guys are definitely weird and crazy. They are our equivalent to the extreme sufis in South Asia. True the ones in South Asia may be worse but these guys are far far away form the sunnah

 

[Omar del Sur]

@Lum @nomadicblood why dont you guys educate the brother whether he can take fatwas from islamqa.

I don't necessarily agree with Lum and nomad on everything.... I have my own views and they do as well.... and I think the idea that a person should know what they're talking about is a pretty reasonable principle

 

[Omar del Sur]

Wallahi I will respond give me time and I will show you from his own works that rabee al Madkhali is one of the biggest munafiqs living today ya jahil, no doubt he is the cobra head of this cult!

How am I an ignorant? It is not ignorant to ask for the evidence. Okay, well I encourage you to show me from his works what this "Madkhalism" thing is. As it stands, it's not even proven that any such thing as "Madkhalism" even exists.

 

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

How am I an ignorant? It is not ignorant to ask for the evidence. Okay, well I encourage you to show me from his works what this "Madkhalism" thing is. As it stands, it's not even proven that any such thing as "Madkhalism" even exists.

It definitely exists even the United States military and intelligence has written about it and how much they appreciate it. I will show you just wait

 

[embarassing]

@embarassing these guys are definitely weird and crazy. They are our equivalent to the extreme sufis in South Asia. True the ones in South Asia may be worse but these guys are far far away form the sunnah

Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed


What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi’i school?

Answer:

Preliminaries
[m: The hadra is a form of group dhikr where the attendees most often stand in a circle. Depending on the particular Sufi order, it can contain elements such as singing, dancing, and music.]
Answer
The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.[1] Whatever has been decisively proven as impermissible is not permitted, and whatever has been decisively proven as permissible is permitted. If the hadra contains something impermissible, like the free-mixing of marriageable men and women in way that is conducive to temptation or unrestrained looking at the unlawful, then attending it is forbidden. Similarly, if [m: the hadra] includes the playing of musical instruments like the kubah (a drum that is wide at each end and narrow in the middle), mizmar ([m: a wood wind instrument similar to the flute]), lute (Ar. ‘ud), and similar musical instruments, then attending it is forbidden. As for the duff ([m: a shallow drum, like a tambourine but without the metal jingles]) and drum that is wide at both ends and the middle, they are permissible in our school for men and women, during weddings and at other times. If the hadra is free from forbidden elements and combines the remembrance of Allah Most High, praising Him as He deserves, and lauding the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), then all of this is fundamentally recommended in Islamic law according to the consensus of Muslims, as is clear. If movement is added to this, as some Sufis do, there is no harm in it, because dancing is permissible for men and women in our school as long it doesn’t contain effeminate or licentious movements as wicked and shameless people do. Otherwise, [m: if it contains such prohibited movements], it is forbidden. Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, the last muharrir [2] imam of our school, was asked about Sufis dancing during their ecstasy and he upheld their practice. In part, he says, “it is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance [m: of Allah] and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam.” (Fatawa Hadithiyya, p. 298)
Al-Jalal As-Suyuti, the imam and hadith master, was asked about the Sufi dance: is it permissible to repudiate those who do it? He replied that it was not permissible to repudiate them and that the one who repudiates is mistaken. He narrated this from a group of scholars (al-Hawi li’l-Fatawi).
The upshot is that if one wishes to do this [m: (i.e., attend a hadra)] while observing the above-mentioned rules, it is not permissible to repudiate him because, at worst, this matter is differed upon. It is not permissible to repudiate one who does [m: an act that is differed upon], as Imam Al-Ghazali (Ihya), An-Nawawi (Sharh Sahih Muslim), Al-‘Izz Ibn Abdussalam (Shajarah Al-Ahwal Wa Al-Ma’arif), other others point out [m: in the parenthesized texts].
Notes
[m: [1] The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization is a maxim of classical logic. It means that before one can pass judgment on an issue, one has to properly understand it.
[2] A muharrir imam is one who authoritatively identifies the strong and weak positions within the school. ]

The Sufi Hadra - IslamQA

Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi'i school? Answer: Preliminaries Answer The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.

islamqa.org

 

[embarassing]

Is there any one example of a scholar who calls himself a Madkhali? Just one example of a scholar who calls himself that.

Why would anyone call themselves it when its meant to be a type of slur? Are you trolling? They call themselves Salafis, or the saved sect. No one is talking about scholars when they say it.

 

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed


What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi’i school?

Answer:

Preliminaries
[m: The hadra is a form of group dhikr where the attendees most often stand in a circle. Depending on the particular Sufi order, it can contain elements such as singing, dancing, and music.]
Answer
The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.[1] Whatever has been decisively proven as impermissible is not permitted, and whatever has been decisively proven as permissible is permitted. If the hadra contains something impermissible, like the free-mixing of marriageable men and women in way that is conducive to temptation or unrestrained looking at the unlawful, then attending it is forbidden. Similarly, if [m: the hadra] includes the playing of musical instruments like the kubah (a drum that is wide at each end and narrow in the middle), mizmar ([m: a wood wind instrument similar to the flute]), lute (Ar. ‘ud), and similar musical instruments, then attending it is forbidden. As for the duff ([m: a shallow drum, like a tambourine but without the metal jingles]) and drum that is wide at both ends and the middle, they are permissible in our school for men and women, during weddings and at other times. If the hadra is free from forbidden elements and combines the remembrance of Allah Most High, praising Him as He deserves, and lauding the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), then all of this is fundamentally recommended in Islamic law according to the consensus of Muslims, as is clear. If movement is added to this, as some Sufis do, there is no harm in it, because dancing is permissible for men and women in our school as long it doesn’t contain effeminate or licentious movements as wicked and shameless people do. Otherwise, [m: if it contains such prohibited movements], it is forbidden. Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, the last muharrir [2] imam of our school, was asked about Sufis dancing during their ecstasy and he upheld their practice. In part, he says, “it is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance [m: of Allah] and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam.” (Fatawa Hadithiyya, p. 298)
Al-Jalal As-Suyuti, the imam and hadith master, was asked about the Sufi dance: is it permissible to repudiate those who do it? He replied that it was not permissible to repudiate them and that the one who repudiates is mistaken. He narrated this from a group of scholars (al-Hawi li’l-Fatawi).
The upshot is that if one wishes to do this [m: (i.e., attend a hadra)] while observing the above-mentioned rules, it is not permissible to repudiate him because, at worst, this matter is differed upon. It is not permissible to repudiate one who does [m: an act that is differed upon], as Imam Al-Ghazali (Ihya), An-Nawawi (Sharh Sahih Muslim), Al-‘Izz Ibn Abdussalam (Shajarah Al-Ahwal Wa Al-Ma’arif), other others point out [m: in the parenthesized texts].
Notes
[m: [1] The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization is a maxim of classical logic. It means that before one can pass judgment on an issue, one has to properly understand it.
[2] A muharrir imam is one who authoritatively identifies the strong and weak positions within the school. ]

The Sufi Hadra - IslamQA

Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi'i school? Answer: Preliminaries Answer The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.

islamqa.org

During their “ecstasy”. Does that refer to them chewing khat while they engage in this innovation that was never seen from the companions. I’ve heard from my own mother who witnessed them many times that they chew Khat. Idc what your sheikh says give me quran, sunnah, or statements of the sahabah that support dancing and playing dhaf during dhikr. At best you might be able to have some evidence to justify group dhikr but even for that you won’t find much

 

[embarassing]

During their “ecstasy”. Does that refer to them chewing khat while they engage in this innovation that was never seen from the companions. I’ve heard from my own mother who witnessed them many times that they chew Khat. Idc what your sheikh says give me quran, sunnah, or statements of the sahabah that support dancing and playing dhaf during dhikr. At best you might be able to have some evidence to justify group dhikr but even for that you won’t find much

It's not something me or anyone I know practices, but i'll take the scholars and the Shafi'i schools opinions over yours.

Just leave them be.

 

[Omar del Sur]

Why would anyone call themselves it when its meant to be a type of slur? Are you trolling? They call themselves Salafis, or the saved sect. No one is talking about scholars when they say it.

Yes, this is what I'm saying- I don't think there's any actual such thing as a Madkhali movement. I think it's like the hoax that there is a "Wahhabi" movement.

 

[Omar del Sur]

It definitely exists even the United States military and intelligence has written about it and how much they appreciate it. I will show you just wait

The Zionist-controlled United States military and intelligence? Why would I take their word for it on Islam? Look, if you're going to show me- from actual words of Madkhali- you're definitely welcome to show me.

 

[ibn Yahya Al-Sooli]

It's not something me or anyone I know practices, but i'll take the scholars and the Shafi'i schools opinions over yours.

Just leave them be.

Beware of blind following scholars, Dancing is only allowed for men during festivities not dhikr. This “scholar” is taking different things and putting them together to appease his followers. I respect the shafi’ee school even though I’m a dhahiri but you think Imam shafi’ee or any of his students right after him would allow this bs? A true shafi’ee scholar whether athari or ashari would not allow what these men in somalia do with their dancing and ecstasy while mentioning Allah’s name Aoothubillah