Luo vs kalenjin beef in Kenya

[Nilote2]

And then there’s the emotional and psychological aspect of it. This is our home. Our families, our ancestors, our future—it’s all tied up in this land. You can’t just come in with your guns and expect us to back down. We’ll fight for it, not just because it’s where we live, but because it’s where we’ve always lived. There’s a difference between fighting for your home and fighting somewhere you’re not familiar with. The Kalenjin would quickly realize that this fight wouldn’t just be against a group of people—it’d be against the heart of Somalia itself.

In the end, we’re not just defending land. We’re defending who we are, who we’ve always been, and who we’ll always be. This isn’t some abstract idea for us. It’s real. So when someone suggests that the Kalenjin, or any other group, could just walk into Somalia and stand a chance, it’s hard not to feel that they’re dismissing everything we’ve fought for—and everything we stand for.

So, in short: they wouldn’t last. Not because they’re not brave, but because they’re up against something that runs far deeper than any outsider can understand. We’ve seen too much, and we’ll always stand firm to protect what’s ours.

You're missing the point, the Kalenjin have never had expansionist ambitions but to say that they wouldn't stand a chance in Somalia dismisses the fact that they would fight THEIR WAY and not yours. We're not talking about a standing army that would waltz into your town but a people that use guerilla tactics to ambush their enemies. Villagers in remote areas wouldn't stand a chance, and they're not there to take hostages. Kalenjin warriors don't show up where you expect them, they show up at night or when you're exposed. Somalis are excellent strategists, I'll give you that, your civilisation benefitted early from the introduction of Islam. By the time the white man arrived, Somalis were already riding on horseback, equipped with guns. But this wouldn't play out the way you imagine, we're in 2025 where anyone has access to guns, couple that with their warrior spirit which is no different from yours. These are nomadic scavengers who are more akin to terrorists than a standing army. I doubt the Somali terrains would prove particularly difficult for a community that's already used to a semi arid climate. Add the fact that they're the most athletic people in the world. They're used to walking long distances with limited food/water.

 

[Aggravated_Quful]

You're missing the point, the Kalenjin have never had expansionist ambitions but to say that they wouldn't stand a chance in Somalia dismisses the fact that they would fight THEIR WAY and not yours. We're not talking about a standing army that would waltz into your town but a people that use guerilla tactics to ambush their enemies. Villagers in remote areas wouldn't stand a chance, and they're not there to take hostages. Kalenjin warriors don't show up where you expect them, they show up at night or when you're exposed. Somalis are excellent strategists, I'll give you that, your civilisation benefitted early from the introduction of Islam. By the time the white man arrived, Somalis were already riding on horseback, equipped with guns. But this wouldn't play out the way you imagine, we're in 2025 where anyone has access to guns, couple that with their warrior spirit which is no different from yours. These are nomadic scavengers who are more akin to terrorists than a standing army. I doubt the Somali terrains would prove particularly difficult for a community that's already used to a semi arid climate. Add the fact that they're the most athletic people in the world. They're used to walking long distances with limited food/water.

You're getting carried away with this fantasy of the Kalenjin warrior spirit like it’s some kind of cheat code for war. Let’s be real for a second because you clearly need a reality check.

First, this whole thing about the Kalenjin never having expansionist ambitions like that’s supposed to mean something. So what. That’s not a flex that just means they’ve never been tested in actual large-scale territorial conflict which funnily enough makes them even less prepared for what you’re trying to argue. Meanwhile we Somalis have been fighting external enemies and each other for centuries. British Italians Ethiopians rival clans we’ve had to defend and expand territory over and over again and guess what we’re still here. You don’t just wake up and develop the kind of warfare instinct that gets passed down through generations. That has to be earned in blood and history and we’ve got both in abundance.

Then there’s this idea that the Kalenjin would fight their way and not ours like that’s supposed to be an advantage. You’re talking about ambush tactics as if that’s some special Kalenjin invention. Listen everybody and I mean everybody who knows how to fight effectively knows how to use guerilla tactics. You really think we haven’t perfected that to an art form by now. The Dervishes fought off colonial powers using nothing but strategy and terrain knowledge. Somali fighters today are still outmaneuvering conventional armies and somehow you think surprise attacks are going to be some game-changer. You don’t get to walk into a warzone thinking your opponents aren’t already experts at the same tactics you’re trying to bring to the table.

And this nonsense about villagers in remote areas wouldn’t stand a chance. You’re already making the mistake of assuming those villagers are just sitting ducks waiting to be conquered. Do you even understand Somali clan dynamics. There’s no such thing as a completely defenseless area because every region has armed men willing to fight for their land. You don’t just roll into some remote area and expect an easy win because those villagers are also part of an armed society. The second you try something you’d be dealing with a response before you even knew what hit you.

Now the part where you try to make it seem like Kalenjin warriors are some mystical ghost force that appears when you least expect it. Bro do you hear yourself. Showing up at night attacking when someone is exposed these are the basics of asymmetric warfare. You’re hyping up what every experienced fighter already does but what you’re missing is that we do that better. We don’t just attack unexpectedly we make sure you never even know when the next hit is coming. You wouldn’t be outmaneuvering us we’d be outmaneuvering you and you wouldn’t even realize it until it was too late.

I love how you try to throw in a little compliment by saying Somalis are excellent strategists and that we benefited from early exposure to Islam and horses as if our military history is just a lucky accident. No we’re excellent strategists because we *had* to be. We fought off colonial forces while the rest of the region was being occupied. We adapted to modern warfare out of necessity. And while you’re talking about warrior spirit we’re talking about actual battlefield tactics that win wars.

And this thing about it being 2025 and everyone having access to guns. That has to be one of the laziest arguments I’ve seen. Owning a gun and knowing how to use it in a real combat scenario are two entirely different things. We have entire generations of fighters who have lived through armed conflict who understand weapons inside and out who know how to move in a battlefield who know how to make split-second decisions under fire. A gun in the hands of an untrained person is just dead weight. And trust me we’d make sure you feel that weight.

Now here’s where you really lost me. You’re out here trying to claim that Kalenjin warrior spirit is no different from ours. That’s where you show you don’t actually get it. Warrior spirit isn’t just about being tough or fearless it’s about being effective. It’s about generations of knowledge passed down. It’s about growing up in a culture where warfare isn’t some distant concept but a reality. It’s about knowing how to fight when to fight how to outthink your enemy how to make war a mind game as much as a physical one. And you think just because someone can run long distances that makes them a formidable opponent in war. Please. That’s like saying marathon runners would make great soldiers just because they have endurance. That’s not how this works.

And this part really made me laugh. You try to paint Kalenjin warriors as these unstoppable nomadic scavengers who are more like terrorists than a standing army. First of all calling your own hypothetical force terrorists isn’t the flex you think it is. Second of all you’re once again acting like guerilla warfare is some Kalenjin specialty. Somali fighters have been using decentralized fighting forces long before modern military theory even had a name for it. You think attacking in small groups and disappearing is something new. We practically wrote the book on it.

And finally you really tried to throw in the idea that Somali terrain wouldn’t be that difficult to navigate because Kalenjin people are used to semi-arid conditions. That has to be the most naive thing you’ve said. Knowing how to survive in one environment doesn’t mean you automatically know how to operate in another. Somali terrain isn’t just about the heat it’s about knowing the land knowing the hiding spots knowing the pathways that outsiders wouldn’t even think to check. You don’t just adapt to that overnight and you sure as hell don’t do it better than the people who’ve lived there their entire lives.

And then you top it all off with the biggest reach of all Kalenjin are the most athletic people in the world. My brother war isn’t a track meet. No one is handing out medals for endurance. You don’t win fights because you can run for hours. You win fights because you know how to outmaneuver outthink and outlast your enemy. And we have centuries of proof that we do exactly that.

So let’s be real. This scenario wouldn’t play out the way YOU think it would. It wouldn’t even be close. You’re talking about a group that has *some* warfare history going up against a people whose entire existence has been shaped by it. The tactics you’re hyping up aren’t new they’re not special and they’re certainly not better than what we already bring to the table. You’re thinking about this like someone who admires combat from a distance. We’re thinking about it like people who have lived through it and perfected it. There’s levels to this and you’re not on ours.

 

[Nilote2]

You're getting carried away with this fantasy of the Kalenjin warrior spirit like it’s some kind of cheat code for war. Let’s be real for a second because you clearly need a reality check.

First, this whole thing about the Kalenjin never having expansionist ambitions like that’s supposed to mean something. So what. That’s not a flex that just means they’ve never been tested in actual large-scale territorial conflict which funnily enough makes them even less prepared for what you’re trying to argue. Meanwhile we Somalis have been fighting external enemies and each other for centuries. British Italians Ethiopians rival clans we’ve had to defend and expand territory over and over again and guess what we’re still here. You don’t just wake up and develop the kind of warfare instinct that gets passed down through generations. That has to be earned in blood and history and we’ve got both in abundance.

Then there’s this idea that the Kalenjin would fight their way and not ours like that’s supposed to be an advantage. You’re talking about ambush tactics as if that’s some special Kalenjin invention. Listen everybody and I mean everybody who knows how to fight effectively knows how to use guerilla tactics. You really think we haven’t perfected that to an art form by now. The Dervishes fought off colonial powers using nothing but strategy and terrain knowledge. Somali fighters today are still outmaneuvering conventional armies and somehow you think surprise attacks are going to be some game-changer. You don’t get to walk into a warzone thinking your opponents aren’t already experts at the same tactics you’re trying to bring to the table.

And this nonsense about villagers in remote areas wouldn’t stand a chance. You’re already making the mistake of assuming those villagers are just sitting ducks waiting to be conquered. Do you even understand Somali clan dynamics. There’s no such thing as a completely defenseless area because every region has armed men willing to fight for their land. You don’t just roll into some remote area and expect an easy win because those villagers are also part of an armed society. The second you try something you’d be dealing with a response before you even knew what hit you.

Now the part where you try to make it seem like Kalenjin warriors are some mystical ghost force that appears when you least expect it. Bro do you hear yourself. Showing up at night attacking when someone is exposed these are the basics of asymmetric warfare. You’re hyping up what every experienced fighter already does but what you’re missing is that we do that better. We don’t just attack unexpectedly we make sure you never even know when the next hit is coming. You wouldn’t be outmaneuvering us we’d be outmaneuvering you and you wouldn’t even realize it until it was too late.

I love how you try to throw in a little compliment by saying Somalis are excellent strategists and that we benefited from early exposure to Islam and horses as if our military history is just a lucky accident. No we’re excellent strategists because we *had* to be. We fought off colonial forces while the rest of the region was being occupied. We adapted to modern warfare out of necessity. And while you’re talking about warrior spirit we’re talking about actual battlefield tactics that win wars.

And this thing about it being 2025 and everyone having access to guns. That has to be one of the laziest arguments I’ve seen. Owning a gun and knowing how to use it in a real combat scenario are two entirely different things. We have entire generations of fighters who have lived through armed conflict who understand weapons inside and out who know how to move in a battlefield who know how to make split-second decisions under fire. A gun in the hands of an untrained person is just dead weight. And trust me we’d make sure you feel that weight.

Now here’s where you really lost me. You’re out here trying to claim that Kalenjin warrior spirit is no different from ours. That’s where you show you don’t actually get it. Warrior spirit isn’t just about being tough or fearless it’s about being effective. It’s about generations of knowledge passed down. It’s about growing up in a culture where warfare isn’t some distant concept but a reality. It’s about knowing how to fight when to fight how to outthink your enemy how to make war a mind game as much as a physical one. And you think just because someone can run long distances that makes them a formidable opponent in war. Please. That’s like saying marathon runners would make great soldiers just because they have endurance. That’s not how this works.

And this part really made me laugh. You try to paint Kalenjin warriors as these unstoppable nomadic scavengers who are more like terrorists than a standing army. First of all calling your own hypothetical force terrorists isn’t the flex you think it is. Second of all you’re once again acting like guerilla warfare is some Kalenjin specialty. Somali fighters have been using decentralized fighting forces long before modern military theory even had a name for it. You think attacking in small groups and disappearing is something new. We practically wrote the book on it.

And finally you really tried to throw in the idea that Somali terrain wouldn’t be that difficult to navigate because Kalenjin people are used to semi-arid conditions. That has to be the most naive thing you’ve said. Knowing how to survive in one environment doesn’t mean you automatically know how to operate in another. Somali terrain isn’t just about the heat it’s about knowing the land knowing the hiding spots knowing the pathways that outsiders wouldn’t even think to check. You don’t just adapt to that overnight and you sure as hell don’t do it better than the people who’ve lived there their entire lives.

And then you top it all off with the biggest reach of all Kalenjin are the most athletic people in the world. My brother war isn’t a track meet. No one is handing out medals for endurance. You don’t win fights because you can run for hours. You win fights because you know how to outmaneuver outthink and outlast your enemy. And we have centuries of proof that we do exactly that.

So let’s be real. This scenario wouldn’t play out the way YOU think it would. It wouldn’t even be close. You’re talking about a group that has *some* warfare history going up against a people whose entire existence has been shaped by it. The tactics you’re hyping up aren’t new they’re not special and they’re certainly not better than what we already bring to the table. You’re thinking about this like someone who admires combat from a distance. We’re thinking about it like people who have lived through it and perfected it. There’s levels to this and you’re not on ours.

The only one getting carried away is you with your mythical fantasy about Somalia being an impenetrable fortress. You have civilians just like any other country and those civilians would die if they were ever to be ambushed by a drilled militia. Kalenjins didn't start carrying guns yesterday. The militarisation of the nomadic tribes happened during the Idi Amin era as a buffer against Ethiopia and Uganda & they've been killing each other like rats ever since. These tribes were already warlike before acquiring guns; modern weaponry simply made them more effective.

"First, this whole thing about the Kalenjin never having expansionist ambitions like that’s supposed to mean something."

By expansionist I obviously meant to different countries.

"You’re talking about ambush tactics as if that’s some special Kalenjin invention."

It's one thing knowing about it and another thing being at the receiving end of an attack. The Battle of El Adde is a perfect example of what happens when you put your guard down.

"You don’t just wake up and develop the kind of warfare instinct that gets passed down through generations."

What warfare instinct would that be, opening a cash register? The average Somali would not be able to withstand a militarised militia group, get back to reality.

" Somali fighters today are still outmaneuvering conventional armies."

Peace keepers who are bound by international laws?

"You don’t get to walk into a warzone thinking your opponents aren’t already experts at the same tactics you’re trying to bring to the table."

Somalia is not a warzone, it's a country held hostage by a rag tag group that would have been wiped out if they weren't funded by Westerners/hiding among civilians.

This whole thread was ridiculous to begin with because home team will always have the advantage in their own terrain but the point I was making is that a terrorist/rebel group is unpredictable whereas an army protects a location.

You're all over the place, one second you're talking about civilians, the next you're talking about fighters.

You specifically said they wouldn't survive, I disagree because Somalia covers a vast territory which you could easily slip in and out of seeing that your government is weak.

 

[Aggravated_Quful]

The only one getting carried away is you with your mythical fantasy about Somalia being an impenetrable fortress. You have civilians just like any other country and those civilians would die if they were ever to be ambushed by a drilled militia. Kalenjins didn't start carrying guns yesterday. The militarisation of the nomadic tribes happened during the Idi Amin era as a buffer against Ethiopia and Uganda & they've been killing each other like rats ever since. These tribes were already warlike before acquiring guns; modern weaponry simply made them more effective.

"First, this whole thing about the Kalenjin never having expansionist ambitions like that’s supposed to mean something."

By expansionist I obviously meant to different countries.

"You’re talking about ambush tactics as if that’s some special Kalenjin invention."

It's one thing knowing about it and another thing being at the receiving end of an attack. The Battle of El Adde is a perfect example of what happens when you put your guard down.

"You don’t just wake up and develop the kind of warfare instinct that gets passed down through generations."

What warfare instinct would that be, opening a cash register? The average Somali would not be able to withstand a militarised militia group, get back to reality.

" Somali fighters today are still outmaneuvering conventional armies."

Peace keepers who are bound by international laws?

"You don’t get to walk into a warzone thinking your opponents aren’t already experts at the same tactics you’re trying to bring to the table."

Somalia is not a warzone, it's a country held hostage by a rag tag group that would have been wiped out if they weren't funded by Westerners/hiding among civilians.

This whole thread was ridiculous to begin with because home team will always have the advantage in their own terrain but the point I was making is that a terrorist/rebel group is unpredictable whereas an army protects a location.

You're all over the place, one second you're talking about civilians, the next you're talking about fighters.

You specifically said they wouldn't survive, I disagree because Somalia covers a vast territory which you could easily slip in and out of seeing that your government is weak.

Man, I don’t even know where to start with this mess. One second you are saying Somalia is not a warzone, the next you are saying the government is weak and a militia could just slip in and out. You do realize those two statements completely contradict each other, right? Pick a struggle because right now it just sounds like you are throwing words at the wall and hoping something sticks.

And then you bring up El Adde like it proves your point. Do you even know what happened there, or are you just name-dropping battles you half-read about? Let me help you out. That was not just some "oops, they got ambushed" moment. That was a complete and utter disaster for the KDF, and it happened because they walked into Somalia thinking they were the big dogs in the yard. They got comfortable, they got sloppy, and they paid for it. Al Shabaab, who are not exactly masterminds but at least know how to exploit stupidity, did not just roll up with guns blazing. They jammed communication first, cutting the base off from any outside help. Then they sent in suicide bombers to soften everything up. And after that, they hit them so hard and so fast that most of the Kenyan soldiers did not even have a chance to fight back. By the time Nairobi even realized what had happened, the entire base was wiped off the map. And guess what? The Kenyan government was so embarrassed they refused to release the official death toll. It was that bad.

And just so you do not think this was a one-time thing, let’s talk about the other times peacekeeping forces thought they could just walk into Somalia and handle business. The Burundians learned the hard way at Leego in 2015. Same script, different actors. Al Shabaab hit their base, killed dozens, and looted everything that was not nailed down. Uganda got a taste at Janaale when their AMISOM base got absolutely wrecked. Ethiopia, who has historically been one of the most battle-hardened militaries in the region, has been fighting off Al Shabaab attacks for years, and even they struggle with it. Hell, the Djiboutians, who barely even get involved, have taken losses. It’s a whole collection of countries who walked in thinking they were about to make light work of some militants and ended up taking some of their worst military defeats.

So if you think that example somehow supports your little theory that a Kalenjin militia would just roll into Somalia and do what actual trained soldiers from Kenya, Burundi, Uganda, and Ethiopia could not, then I genuinely do not know what to tell you. Because if El Adde and every other AMISOM disaster prove anything, it’s that walking into Somalia thinking you’re about to handle business without knowing what you’re doing is a one-way ticket to getting turned into a statistic.

And let’s talk about this whole idea that "a drilled militia" would just steamroll through civilians like they are cardboard cutouts. You keep acting like Somalia is just sitting there, defenseless, waiting to be taken. That is not how anything works. Civilians do not mean *helpless.* Civilians do not mean *easy targets.* You think Somalis have spent the last thirty years surviving war just to roll over for some militia that does not even know the terrain? The second an outsider starts causing problems, they are not just fighting some standing army. They are fighting everybody. That is the difference between knowing history and actually understanding what it means.

And the cash register comment? Bro. That was weak. I know you thought you did something with that one, but come on. You are out here making jokes about Somalis running businesses while trying to argue that your side would be better at warfare. You do see the irony in that, right? One group figured out how to survive in war while also building businesses across the world. The other has been, as you put it, "killing each other like rats" for decades. But sure, tell me more about which one has the superior survival skills.

Look, I will give you points for confidence. You are completely wrong, but at least you are committed. But at some point, you have to stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. Because this is not even a debate anymore. You are just contradicting yourself every other sentence while pretending you have a point. And it is getting embarrassing.

 

[Nilote2]

Man, I don’t even know where to start with this mess. One second you are saying Somalia is not a warzone, the next you are saying the government is weak and a militia could just slip in and out. You do realize those two statements completely contradict each other, right? Pick a struggle because right now it just sounds like you are throwing words at the wall and hoping something sticks.

And then you bring up El Adde like it proves your point. Do you even know what happened there, or are you just name-dropping battles you half-read about? Let me help you out. That was not just some "oops, they got ambushed" moment. That was a complete and utter disaster for the KDF, and it happened because they walked into Somalia thinking they were the big dogs in the yard. They got comfortable, they got sloppy, and they paid for it. Al Shabaab, who are not exactly masterminds but at least know how to exploit stupidity, did not just roll up with guns blazing. They jammed communication first, cutting the base off from any outside help. Then they sent in suicide bombers to soften everything up. And after that, they hit them so hard and so fast that most of the Kenyan soldiers did not even have a chance to fight back. By the time Nairobi even realized what had happened, the entire base was wiped off the map. And guess what? The Kenyan government was so embarrassed they refused to release the official death toll. It was that bad.

And just so you do not think this was a one-time thing, let’s talk about the other times peacekeeping forces thought they could just walk into Somalia and handle business. The Burundians learned the hard way at Leego in 2015. Same script, different actors. Al Shabaab hit their base, killed dozens, and looted everything that was not nailed down. Uganda got a taste at Janaale when their AMISOM base got absolutely wrecked. Ethiopia, who has historically been one of the most battle-hardened militaries in the region, has been fighting off Al Shabaab attacks for years, and even they struggle with it. Hell, the Djiboutians, who barely even get involved, have taken losses. It’s a whole collection of countries who walked in thinking they were about to make light work of some militants and ended up taking some of their worst military defeats.

So if you think that example somehow supports your little theory that a Kalenjin militia would just roll into Somalia and do what actual trained soldiers from Kenya, Burundi, Uganda, and Ethiopia could not, then I genuinely do not know what to tell you. Because if El Adde and every other AMISOM disaster prove anything, it’s that walking into Somalia thinking you’re about to handle business without knowing what you’re doing is a one-way ticket to getting turned into a statistic.

And let’s talk about this whole idea that "a drilled militia" would just steamroll through civilians like they are cardboard cutouts. You keep acting like Somalia is just sitting there, defenseless, waiting to be taken. That is not how anything works. Civilians do not mean *helpless.* Civilians do not mean *easy targets.* You think Somalis have spent the last thirty years surviving war just to roll over for some militia that does not even know the terrain? The second an outsider starts causing problems, they are not just fighting some standing army. They are fighting everybody. That is the difference between knowing history and actually understanding what it means.

And the cash register comment? Bro. That was weak. I know you thought you did something with that one, but come on. You are out here making jokes about Somalis running businesses while trying to argue that your side would be better at warfare. You do see the irony in that, right? One group figured out how to survive in war while also building businesses across the world. The other has been, as you put it, "killing each other like rats" for decades. But sure, tell me more about which one has the superior survival skills.

Look, I will give you points for confidence. You are completely wrong, but at least you are committed. But at some point, you have to stop arguing just for the sake of arguing. Because this is not even a debate anymore. You are just contradicting yourself every other sentence while pretending you have a point. And it is getting embarrassing.

"One second you are saying Somalia is not a warzone, the next you are saying the government is weak and a militia could just slip in and out. You do realize those two statements completely contradict each other, right?"

Not really. You have a failed government with limited resources—what’s so hard to understand? How do you expect to protect a 682-kilometer border when you barely know what’s going on in other parts of the country? For years, people have been dumping waste in your waters without the government taking action because it lacks control. Even Kenya struggles to control that border.

Name-dropping battles I’ve only partially read about? KDF commanders were informed of the attack 45 days before it happened, but they ignored the intel. It wasn’t about them “walking into Somalia thinking they were the big dogs.”

One Western diplomat called it a tactical disaster. “How can two hundred Al-Shabaab fighters walk across a field in broad daylight without the Kenyans noticing? Where were the KDF’s machine guns? This is contrary to everything they’ve been trained to do in a hostile environment.”

You like throwing around words to make your argument sound more impressive, but you're essentially saying the same thing. It was a tactical failure! And if the military can mess up this badly, what do you think would happen if a bunch of villagers were attacked?

In all honesty, there are too many butts for this scenario to ever play out. One second we're talking about civilians, the next you're rambling about a well funded terrorist group attacking PEACEKEEPING FORCES with military grade weapons (AK-47s, M16s, PKMs, RPG-7s, DShK, mortars, IEDs, VBIEDs etc).

On the contrary Operation Linda Nchi was highly succesful so save me the crap about "hardened Ethiopian troops" because attacking and defending are two different things.

You like blurring the lines between civilians and al-Shabaab to prove a point I wasn't trying to make. Somalia is not a fortress with sentries at every corner, so I don't know why you think a militant group wouldn't be able to cross the border and kill civilians.

I regret even responding to the initial comment because it was nonsensical to begin with. It's like me saying al-Shabaab wouldn't survive a day in Syria or Afghanistan.

 

[Aggravated_Quful]

"One second you are saying Somalia is not a warzone, the next you are saying the government is weak and a militia could just slip in and out. You do realize those two statements completely contradict each other, right?"

Not really. You have a failed government with limited resources—what’s so hard to understand? How do you expect to protect a 682-kilometer border when you barely know what’s going on in other parts of the country? For years, people have been dumping waste in your waters without the government taking action because it lacks control. Even Kenya struggles to control that border.

Name-dropping battles I’ve only partially read about? KDF commanders were informed of the attack 45 days before it happened, but they ignored the intel. It wasn’t about them “walking into Somalia thinking they were the big dogs.”

One Western diplomat called it a tactical disaster. “How can two hundred Al-Shabaab fighters walk across a field in broad daylight without the Kenyans noticing? Where were the KDF’s machine guns? This is contrary to everything they’ve been trained to do in a hostile environment.”

You like throwing around words to make your argument sound more impressive, but you're essentially saying the same thing. It was a tactical failure! And if the military can mess up this badly, what do you think would happen if a bunch of villagers were attacked?

In all honesty, there are too many butts for this scenario to ever play out. One second we're talking about civilians, the next you're rambling about a well funded terrorist group attacking PEACEKEEPING FORCES with military grade weapons (AK-47s, M16s, PKMs, RPG-7s, DShK, mortars, IEDs, VBIEDs etc).

On the contrary Operation Linda Nchi was highly succesful so save me the crap about "hardened Ethiopian troops" because attacking and defending are two different things.

You like blurring the lines between civilians and al-Shabaab to prove a point I wasn't trying to make. Somalia is not a fortress with sentries at every corner, so I don't know why you think a militant group wouldn't be able to cross the border and kill civilians.

I regret even responding to the initial comment because it was nonsensical to begin with. It's like me saying al-Shabaab wouldn't survive a day in Syria or Afghanistan.

Bro, you’re really out here trying to sound like a war analyst, but all you’re doing is playing mental gymnastics with yourself. First, let’s talk about this whole “Somalia isn’t a warzone, but the government is weak” thing. That’s not a contradiction, that’s just reality. A weak government doesn’t mean the entire country is a battlefield 24/7. It means security is inconsistent, regions are controlled by different forces, and yeah, sometimes militants can slip in and out. You think every inch of Somalia is under siege? By your logic, Mexico should be a warzone too, but last I checked, tourists are still sipping margaritas in Cancún while cartels run entire provinces.

Now, about El Adde. You keep clinging to this idea that it was just a one-off tactical failure, but let’s not rewrite history. It wasn’t just about ignoring intel. It was complacency, lack of coordination, and a complete underestimation of the enemy. Al Shabaab didn’t just attack, they dismantled that base like it was a practice drill. No reinforcements, no escape, just pure chaos. And you think some random militia group would do better? Bro, entire trained battalions with air support couldn’t even hold their ground, but yeah, let’s pretend like any group with guns and "warrior spirit" would just stroll in and dominate.

And Linda Nchi? You’re really trying to pass that off as a success? Kenya literally had to merge its forces into AMISOM just to avoid admitting they bit off more than they could chew. Al Shabaab wasn’t wiped out, they adapted. They spread into Kenya itself. They ramped up their attacks in Nairobi, Mombasa, Garissa. That’s not a clean victory, that’s a prolonged headache. If that’s your definition of success, I’d hate to see what you call a failure.

Also, let’s address the fact that you’re treating Al Shabaab like they’re both an overrated ragtag militia *and* a well-equipped, well funded military force at the same time. Which one is it? Because you can’t downplay their capabilities while also listing out their entire arsenal like you’re their quartermaster. You’re basically arguing against yourself at this point.

And this Syria and Afghanistan comparison? Bro, you’re throwing in random conflicts like war is some universal one-size-fits-all situation. Different terrains, different enemies, different history. But sure, let’s compare a group that thrives in East Africa to insurgents fighting in mountain ranges and deserts. Might as well throw in Vietnam while you’re at it. Maybe the Mongol invasions too, since apparently, all wars are the same now.

At this point, I don’t know if you actually believe what you’re saying or if you’re just committed to this argument out of pride. Either way, it’s entertaining watching you twist logic into a pretzel to avoid admitting you don’t really have a solid point. Keep going though, bro.

Lastly,
If a weak government automatically means an easy invasion, then why has Al Shabaab been fighting for over a decade instead of just walking in and taking over everything? What exactly makes a country an "open target" if not that?

If 45 days of intel couldn’t stop El Adde, if an entire military base with trained soldiers, armored vehicles, and air support still got steamrolled, then what magical strategy do you think would have changed the outcome?

And if Linda Nchi was such a "success," why did Kenya have to quietly merge into AMISOM, deal with constant cross-border attacks, and still face Al Shabaab threats years later? What does “victory” even look like when the fight never really ended?

 

[Nilotic]

The original claim about the Kalenjin not standing a chance if they were Somalia should be put into its proper context. If the Kalenjin were just another clan in Somalia, I think they could hold their own based on their current levels of courage and skills...

..If it's in the context of encroaching into Somalia as an invading force (with intentions of implantation) then I think they would be expelled rather quickly.

This entire discussion is pointless

 

[Nilote2]

Bro, you’re really out here trying to sound like a war analyst, but all you’re doing is playing mental gymnastics with yourself.

Now, about El Adde. It wasn’t just about ignoring intel. It was complacency, lack of coordination, and a complete underestimation of the enemy. Al Shabaab didn’t just attack, they dismantled that base like it was a practice drill. No reinforcements, no escape, just pure chaos.

You start off by calling me a "war analyst," only to then break down El Adde as if you've uncovered something profound. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

A suicide car bomber blasting a door open with enough TNT to take down a skyscraper isn’t exactly a sophisticated attack - it's a typical Al-Kebab tactic. The soldiers were still asleep when the Kebabs stormed in.

CNN: "The apparent ease with which the militants breached barriers at El Adde has surprised many security analysts -- especially since the same style of assault had been seen before in bloody attacks on AMISOM forces."

They got caught with their pants down, there's really not much else to say.

The explosion was 3x the size of the 1998 Kenya embassy bombing (seen below) so you can imagine the impact. The armoury & comms tower was completely destroyed

And Linda Nchi? You’re really trying to pass that off as a success?

Kenya literally had to merge its forces into AMISOM just to avoid admitting they bit off more than they could chew.

Kenya merged its forces with AMISOM after completing its mission (creating a buffer zone in Southern Somalia), not because it was overwhelmed. It seems you're just spinning the same fact to bolster your own argument.

Success = ridding the region of al-Shabaab with minimal casualties compared to the enemy.

Al Shabaab wasn’t wiped out, they adapted.

Who said the mission was to completely wipe them out? If the U.S. couldn’t eliminate the Taliban in 20 years, what makes you think KDF would be able to wipe out al-Kebab? Completely wiping them out would require extreme measures, likely involving severe human rights abuses which would only serve to strengthen their cause.

They spread into Kenya itself. They ramped up their attacks in Nairobi, Mombasa, Garissa.

Desperate attempts by a weakened terror organisation to make it seem stronger than it actually is. We've seen the same thing across Europe.

That’s not a clean victory, that’s a prolonged headache. If that’s your definition of success, I’d hate to see what you call a failure.

Once again putting words in my mouth.

Also, let’s address the fact that you’re treating Al Shabaab like they’re both an overrated ragtag militia *and* a well-equipped, well funded military force at the same time.

Two things can be true - just because they're heavily funded doesn't mean they're an efficient, professional force. A vast majority are locals who picked up arms because they were desperate or disgruntled, some were even forced. Remove that funding, and what remains is essentially an untrained, ragtag militia no different from any other.

And this Syria and Afghanistan comparison? Bro, you’re throwing in random conflicts like war is some universal one-size-fits-all situation.

It wasn't a comparison... seriously.
Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you just rushing to reply?

Different terrains, different enemies, different history. But sure, let’s compare a group that thrives in East Africa to insurgents fighting in mountain ranges and deserts. Might as well throw in Vietnam while you’re at it. Maybe the Mongol invasions too, since apparently, all wars are the same now.

Eh, no shit Sherlock, that was my whole point!

What part of "I regret even responding to the initial comment because it was nonsensical to begin with" did you not understand?

Lastly,
If a weak government automatically means an easy invasion, then why has Al Shabaab been fighting for over a decade instead of just walking in and taking over everything?

Your government would have been ran over a long time ago if not for foreign intervention.

What exactly makes a country an "open target" if not that?

If 45 days of intel couldn’t stop El Adde, if an entire military base with trained soldiers, armored vehicles, and air support still got steamrolled,

You love twisting words, what part of IGNORING intel did you not comprehend? The commanding officer kept the information to himself.

then what magical strategy do you think would have changed the outcome?

Erm maybe preparing for an invasion?

“How can two hundred Al-Shabaab fighters walk across a field in broad daylight without the Kenyans noticing? Where were the KDF’s machine guns? This is contrary to everything they’ve been trained to do in a hostile environment.”

CNN: "The apparent ease with which the militants breached barriers at El Adde has surprised many security analysts -- especially since the same style of assault had been seen before in bloody attacks on AMISOM forces."

And if Linda Nchi was such a "success," why did Kenya have to quietly merge into AMISOM, deal with constant cross-border attacks, and still face Al Shabaab threats years later? What does “victory” even look like when the fight never really ended?

Quietly? They pretty much announced it to the world.

At this point you're just arguing with yourself because I already told you that the initial comment was nonsensical. I responded to a comment without considering all the other factors in play.

 

[Nilote2]

A government that makes less than a terror organisation within its borders = weak.

$15m / month

That's less than what Kenya loses daily to corruption.

Sh 2bn = $15.5m

Eliminating a terror organisation that pretty much runs Somalia is not in the interest of Kenyan tax payers. Joining AMISOM was the smart thing to do seeing that costs would be shifted to the UN. Securing the border would have been another option seeing that al-Kebab have consistently denied kidnapping those tourists.

I personally believe the kidnappers were from Somalia. However whether they were al-Kebab is arguable. It could just as well have been a copy-cat terror cell.

 

[Nilote2]

The original claim about the Kalenjin not standing a chance if they were Somalia should be put into its proper context. If the Kalenjin were just another clan in Somalia, I think they could hold their own based on their current levels of courage and skills...

..If it's in the context of encroaching into Somalia as an invading force (with intentions of implantation) then I think they would be expelled rather quickly.

This entire discussion is pointless

Agreed, my response was misguided. What I meant to convey was that they are not pushovers, as the original commenter seemed to suggest. Somalis tend to exaggerate their military prowess, by portraying themselves as mythical warriors that are ready to march into death at the call of their Mullah (it's not the first time I've heard this narrative). In their view, every able-bodied man or woman will instantly transform into a seasoned mujahideen the moment an invader steps into their territory. That might be true in fairy land but in reality the majority would flee.

Crossing into Somalia is also not impossible seeing that it's a porous border.

However, sustaining yourself over an extended period of time with limited resources is unlikely seeing that there is bound to be a much larger counterattack at some point. What would even be the motivation to stay in Somalia, to steal more camels?

 

[Aggravated_Quful]

A government that makes less than a terror organisation within its borders = weak.

$15m / month

View attachment 356144

That's less than what Kenya loses daily to corruption.

Sh 2bn = $15.5m

View attachment 356143

Eliminating a terror organisation that pretty much runs Somalia is not in the interest of Kenyan tax payers. Joining AMISOM was the smart thing to do seeing that costs would be shifted to the UN. Securing the border would have been another option seeing that al-Kebab have consistently denied kidnapping those tourists.

View attachment 356148

I personally believe the kidnappers were from Somalia. However whether they were al-Kebab is arguable. It could just as well have been a copy-cat terror cell.

Agreed, my response was misguided. What I meant to convey was that they are not pushovers, as the original commenter seemed to suggest. Somalis tend to exaggerate their military prowess, by portraying themselves as mythical warriors that are ready to march into death at the call of their Mullah (it's not the first time I've heard this narrative). In their view, every able-bodied man or woman will instantly transform into a seasoned mujahideen the moment an invader steps into their territory. That might be true in fairy land but in reality the majority would flee.

View attachment 356160

Crossing into Somalia is also not impossible seeing that it's a porous border.

View attachment 356161

However, sustaining yourself over an extended period of time with limited resources is unlikely seeing that there is bound to be a much larger counterattack at some point. What would even be the motivation to stay in Somalia, to steal more camels?

View attachment 356169

Alright bro, I’m actually tired of this, so let’s just wrap it up. This whole thing started because you couldn’t decide what point you were even trying to make. First, Somalia isn’t a warzone. Then the government is weak, and anyone can just stroll in and do damage. Do you not see how that’s contradicting yourself? A country doesn’t have to be an active battlefield 24/7 to be vulnerable, and a weak government doesn’t mean the people in it don’t know how to fight. You’ve been flip-flopping between extremes like you’re arguing with yourself, and I’ve just been here watching.

Then we got to El Adde, and you keep repeating that KDF ignored intel like that somehow makes the loss less embarrassing. If they knew 45 days in advance and still got wrecked that badly, that’s even worse. That’s not just getting “caught with their pants down” that’s failure on every level. The attack wasn’t even at night, bro. It was in broad daylight. Al-Shabaab didn’t invent some genius new military strategy they literally just ran the same playbook they’d used before. And the fact that it worked again should tell you everything.

And now you’re on this whole “Somalis exaggerate their military prowess” thing, like that was ever the argument. Nobody said every Somali is some super soldier who turns into a mujahid the second they hear gunfire. But also, let’s not pretend a country that’s been at war for decades doesn’t have people who actually know how to fight. You’re acting like the whole country is just sitting there waiting to run at the first sign of trouble. History doesn’t back that up, but you go ahead and keep believing whatever makes you feel better.

Now, after all that, you’re saying your original response was “misguided.” Cool. But if that’s the case, what exactly are we still arguing about? You spent all this time doubling down, shifting goalposts, and now you’re basically just saying, “Well, I just meant they’re not pushovers.” Yeah, no one said they were.

At this point, we’re going in circles. You’ve already admitted your first take was off, we’ve both wasted too much time on this, and I don’t think there’s anything left to argue. So let’s just call it what it is a long, unnecessary conversation that could’ve been avoided if we just started with some nuance instead of acting like this was some black-and-white situation. Anyway, it was fun for a bit, but I think we’ve both had enough. Take care, bro.

 

[Nilote2]

Alright bro, I’m actually tired of this, so let’s just wrap it up.

I second you on that.

First, Somalia isn’t a warzone. Then the government is weak, and anyone can just stroll in and do damage. Do you not see how that’s contradicting yourself?

We've already been through this. A strong government doesn't need foreign forces to maintain stability. A strong government doesn't compete with a terrorist organization when it comes to revenue collection. Labeling Somalia a warzone would imply it's in active conflict, which couldn’t be further from the truth. Somaliland and Puntland are relatively stable, while parts of Jubaland and Galmudug still face security challenges. Would I label these regions as warzones? No. A more appropriate description would be 'contested regions,' as al-Shabaab operates through intimidation. Ukraine, Yemen, the DRC, Syria, Gaza (well, they're finished), and Myanmar are warzones.

The Somali border is weak, and I stand by that. The country lacks sufficient resources to defend its borders efficiently, meaning a foreign group could enter Somalia with relative ease. HOWEVER, they would likely face resistance from al-Shabaab and other extremist groups, so it’s a matter of manpower/resources. A couple hundred militants might not get far, but a community of 6 million Kalenjins could potentially muster a fighting force that would cause serious problems if well-equipped. However, this would certainly draw the attention of the central government, which would likely unite with al-Shabaab, AMISOM, and Kenya to expel them. So, this whole scenario is ludicrous.

A country doesn’t have to be an active battlefield 24/7 to be vulnerable,

Nobody said that.

and a weak government doesn’t mean the people in it don’t know how to fight.

Nobody said that either. My only point was that a militia could wreak havoc anywhere if it attacked an unsuspecting village, even if a handful of them were armed. Where I erred was in my assessment of the landscape because you can't magically place a militia in a different country without accounting for all the other elements at play.

Then we got to El Adde, and you keep repeating that KDF ignored intel like that somehow makes the loss less embarrassing. If they knew 45 days in advance and still got wrecked that badly, that’s even worse. That’s not just getting “caught with their pants down” that’s failure on every level.

Not they, their military commander, that's a human error that is inexcusable.

The attack wasn’t even at night, bro. It was in broad daylight.

7.30 am, the soldiers were still asleep, let's not rewrite history. A neighbouring Somali SNA base located down the street had already evacuated.

Al-Shabaab didn’t invent some genius new military strategy they literally just ran the same playbook they’d used before. And the fact that it worked again should tell you everything.

Regurgitating what I already said.

And now you’re on this whole “Somalis exaggerate their military prowess” thing, like that was ever the argument. Nobody said every Somali is some super soldier who turns into a mujahid the second they hear gunfire.

I've heard these fairytales so many times that I automatically assume every Somali is delusional whenever they start rambling about their warrior spirit.

But also, let’s not pretend a country that’s been at war for decades doesn’t have people who actually know how to fight. You’re acting like the whole country is just sitting there waiting to run at the first sign of trouble. History doesn’t back that up, but you go ahead and keep believing whatever makes you feel better.

I don't need to believe it; it's human nature. I'm glad you said decades because most Somalis cite ancient wars that happened before their great grandparents were born. It's the kind of arrogance that can only emerge after the fall of a once great civilization.

Now, after all that, you’re saying your original response was “misguided.” Cool. But if that’s the case, what exactly are we still arguing about? You spent all this time doubling down, shifting goalposts, and now you’re basically just saying, “Well, I just meant they’re not pushovers.” Yeah, no one said they were.

The initial post implied it

At this point, we’re going in circles. You’ve already admitted your first take was off, we’ve both wasted too much time on this, and I don’t think there’s anything left to argue. So let’s just call it what it is a long, unnecessary conversation that could’ve been avoided if we just started with some nuance instead of acting like this was some black-and-white situation. Anyway, it was fun for a bit, but I think we’ve both had enough. Take care, bro.

Agreed, I took the bait & you only made it worse with your "are you on crack?" comment. If you go back you'll see that I initially mapped a scenario where the militia attacked and then backed into Kenya with their spoils because that would be the most likely scenario. A prolonged stay in Somalia would be unwise.

 

[Zak12]

Your government would have been ran over a long time ago if not for foreign intervention.

It was interventions that caused this whole mess in the first place. Both the 2006 Ethiopian invasion and Kenyan 2011 invasions caused the rise of Al-Shabab and now both countries want Al-Shabab to maintain its power to prevent the rise of a stable and strong Somalia.

that I automatically assume every Somali is delusional whenever they start rambling about their warrior spirit.

Who the hell are you? You just came to this forum and you are bad mouthing Somalis for no reason? I saw your other horrible takes in another thread about East African identity such as the claims that Somalis are "guests" to your land and that Somalis originated from Arabia. Its fact that the ancestors of Somalis (like all other Horners) came from northern Sudan and ancient East African pastorialists and Iron Age Kenyans/Tanzanians genetically resembled Somalis and not Bantus or Nilotics.

I could go on with your nonsense posts like:

"Good relations", kulaha as if Kenya and Ethiopia haven't constantly meddled with Somalia.Next time actually learn about the country and lurk more before posting in these forums.

 

[Zak12]

that could’ve been avoided if we just started with some nuance

He seems to be knowledgable about Nilotic tribes which can be a welcome thing here but he poisoned the well with his insulting and dissmisive attitudes about Somalis and Somalia. His rhetoric says it all when he later started spewing the usual anti-Somali nonsense from the crowd like Somalis being racist, believing they are Arabs and even being foreigners to East Africa. There are users like @Idilinaa who can easily disprove this and show Somalia/Somalis are friendly and trustworthy people to other Africans and foreigners.

But it's also the reason why you have Syrians, Yemenis, Sudanese coming to Somalia as refugees and integrating smoothly

Yemeni refugees integrate smoothly into Somali society

With freedom to work and travel, Yemeni refugees become part of social and economic fabric of Somalia - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Syrian Refugees in Somalia Enrich Culture, Contribute to Economy

Boost comes as Somalia’s economy faces challenges due to pandemic and political unrest

www.voanews.com

Palestinians are all welcome, it doesn't matter what they believe about us , as long as we know the truth about ourselves and our country its what matters. We don't discard our values and humanity to play bigot racist warfare over keyboards, it doesn't mean we worship or see any group as superior.

Arabs have a reputation for racism and indifference , Somalis have a reputation for being friendly, kind, charitable and generous. Somalis are more steadfast and unapologetics with their religion, Arabs will move out of their country tio discard their religion in the west so they can be more accepted by Islamophobes. We are not the same mindset wise.

I bet all the displaced groups i have mentioned had the same pre-concieved media induced beliefs about Somalia before they went there. So let believe and say what they want.