Mudug-Madman
Gaalkacyo Gangster
lol
London Predatory Carnival On Somalia - Great Article on the new British model for Somalia
- Thread starter Inquisitive_
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You keep bringing up the same point while confirming my point that there isn't any evidence for that statement. All I know is that Somali's want improved living conditions and an opportunity to build a better tomorrow without going into their political leanings.
Federalism would slow down that dream if not fully get in the way of it.
Reconciliation won't plow the land and build schools. The people in the media and politics that keep on bringing that up only want to limit the conversation to yesterday instead of planning for today and the future....
.. or they're Qabilists themselves and want to ensure their little enclave get's an equal share of worthless resources below their ground or the meager aid thrown to Somalia by other countries.
Reconciliation won't ever happen as most clans weren't as innocent as they may claim so that conversation would just go in an endless circle.
Good luck trying to get these guys to admit crimes and ask for forgiveness.
Mudug-Madman
Gaalkacyo Gangster
Well the way I see it, it's either federalism, or reconciliation. No one is gonna accept a strong federal government in Mogadishu to lord over them, not for decades. I would like a strong government someday, but it's unrealistic for the time being. You seriously don't know how deep this hatred and cuqdad goes. You think you can just tell Isaaqs and Hawiyes who were brutally repressed by the Barre regime, or Darods who were chased out of Mogadishu with nothing but the clothes on their backs, or Raxanweyne who were massacred by Aideed's and Morgan's militias, "hey guys, we're all friends now! Let's hold hands and sing kumbaya!". It's not gonna happen, sxb. The way things are now, you can't have a strong central government without reconciliation. It's like trying to build a house on a shitty foundation. It'll just collapse.You keep bringing up the same point while confirming my point that there isn't any evidence for that statement. All I know is that Somali's want improved living conditions and an opportunity to build a better tomorrow without going into their political leanings.
Federalism would slow down that dream if not fully get in the way of it.
Reconciliation won't plow the land and build schools. The people in the media and politics that keep on bringing that up only want to limit the conversation to yesterday instead of planning for today and the future....
.. or they're Qabilists themselves and want to ensure their little enclave get's an equal share of worthless resources below their ground or the meager aid thrown to Somalia by other countries.
Reconciliation won't ever happen as most clans weren't as innocent as they may claim so that conversation would just go in an endless circle.
Good luck trying to get these guys to admit crimes and ask for forgiveness.
No, there hasn't been a poll. I'm merely going by what I've experienced in my life. The vast majority of Somalis (95%) are either outright qabilists, or undercover qabilists. The latter group likes to talk about Somalinimo, but when pressured reveal their clannist views. You haven't been here long, but the two guys I quoted fall under the latter category. The OP talks a big game about Somalinimo, but go read his posts on the clan section of the forum. According to him, Maxamud Saleebans are the great satan, the antichrist, and everything that's wrong with Somalia. He even goes as far as to state that they're not real Somalis and should be expelled. As you can guess, he's a Sacad HG. Apparently Somalinimo is all about carrying the same clan grudges. If that's his 'Somalinimo' he can shove it up his ass. We don't want it.
The scars of the civil war and deep and recent. They haven't healed, and there's been no effort to heal them. The only way forward is to have some sort of reconciliation process where the crimes of the civil war are addressed in an open and honest matter. Until then, there can be no real nationalist feeling or a strong central government. And trying to force it. to bring the various federal states into line, will only cause another civil war.
Quoted for emphasis. For anyone that is new or a "lurker", he is talking about Inquisitive and his many fanboys.
As far as I've heard all the oil and natural resources are in somaliland. So how can Somalia sign away our rights to our land?
TekNiKo
Loyal To The One True Caliph (Hafidahullah)
@Inquisitive_
These folks who are all from Puntland have done and continously do so by ruining this thread about the shady London conference and want to turn it into a qabil induced slugfest.
What does HG or Sacad have to do with the London conference.
Good grief they ruin every political discussion and run to their Matriarch Duchess who moves the topic too the Clan Section.
Its a pathetic practice to shut down threads that expose them.
This site is going to the shitter and the few interesting threads full of excellent content are being derailed!!
@Duke of Bohol do something about this, you seem to be the only moderator competent enough to screw a lightbulb!!
These folks who are all from Puntland have done and continously do so by ruining this thread about the shady London conference and want to turn it into a qabil induced slugfest.
What does HG or Sacad have to do with the London conference.
Good grief they ruin every political discussion and run to their Matriarch Duchess who moves the topic too the Clan Section.
Its a pathetic practice to shut down threads that expose them.
This site is going to the shitter and the few interesting threads full of excellent content are being derailed!!
@Duke of Bohol do something about this, you seem to be the only moderator competent enough to screw a lightbulb!!
Lord Flacko
VIP
Thing is the State governors can't ever be trusted. They're all corrupt. And many are too much in bed with foreign nations. I don't trust a single one of them.
If the Governors wants a seat at the table, they should lose the power to make any out of state visit that is not approved or accompanied by the Foreign Minister. Otherwise we can't assure their loyalty to the Federal Government.
And legally strip them of the title "President". Only 1 president for every country at most. They are glorified governors.
Mudug-Madman
Gaalkacyo Gangster
Stop crying to the mods like a little girl. How about you address me directly? Or are you too afraid because I'll expose your two-faced hypocrisy? You guys were talking about federal states and their relation to the central government. I was merely continuing that discussion. Also, this is the pot calling the kettle black. You're the one who started barking about the "bermuda triangle".@Inquisitive_
These folks who are all from Puntland have done and continously do so by ruining this thread about the shady London conference and want to turn it into a qabil induced slugfest.
What does HG or Sacad have to do with the London conference.
Good grief they ruin every political discussion and run to their Matriarch Duchess who moves the topic too the Clan Section.
Its a pathetic practice to shut down threads that expose them.
This site is going to the shitter and the few interesting threads full of excellent content are being derailed!!
@Duke of Bohol do something about this, you seem to be the only moderator competent enough to screw a lightbulb!!
I completely agree with all of this. Especially the last two points.
Federalism can only work properly if the leaders of each of the states are not corrupt and are loyal only to their constituents.
Foreign adversaries will sic their regional dogs against the people's champ but surely Allah is the most powerful and he will make farmaajo come out of the negotiation table a big winner
I have faith in Farmaajo/Kheyre to do what's best for the country. Inshallah these so called fake presidents will come back crying
I have faith in Farmaajo/Kheyre to do what's best for the country. Inshallah these so called fake presidents will come back crying
Fact: Even when guys like @Thegoodshepherd @Abdalla, don't and are not in a position of power in the capital, they still make policies and decisions from their "barren wastelands", that have a detrimental effect on on the way of life of Somalis all over the country, and I dare say even across the Horn. There's no getting rid of us matey boy, the sooner you understand that, the better.
Rorschach
...
I honestly don't think there can be any national unitary progress without some form of reconciliation.
Do you honestly believe that Puntland and Somaliland are willing to accept a Southern-based army (read Hawiye majority), when there is pent-up anger from decades of conflict and propaganda?
Properties have to be returned, warlords must be prosecuted, and there must a national recognition of the events of the last few decades (a la Germany recognising their role in WWII). This must be done across the whole of the horn regardless of clan-ties (every clan has some guilt) or you can kiss unity goodbye.
Talk about cart before the horse.
Do you honestly believe that Puntland and Somaliland are willing to accept a Southern-based army (read Hawiye majority), when there is pent-up anger from decades of conflict and propaganda?
Properties have to be returned, warlords must be prosecuted, and there must a national recognition of the events of the last few decades (a la Germany recognising their role in WWII). This must be done across the whole of the horn regardless of clan-ties (every clan has some guilt) or you can kiss unity goodbye.
Talk about cart before the horse.
You made such a post a million times now, two groups fighting each other has been going on from the very beginning of time, every clan has had a civil war amongst themselves, to try to argue one side was fighting for Somalinimo and the other side was Somalidiid opens up problems for you.
When Ceydiid fought Qeybdiid who was fighting for Somalinimo and who was Anti Somalinimo? how about the Habro Civil war in Somaliland? who was the Somalinimo fraction and the Anti Somalidiid fraction in that battle? how about the internal Biyomaal battle which fraction was which ?
I can go on forever with this but you get my point, these conflicts are over complex disputes mudane that dates back a long time ago, each fraction transgressed their bounds much like any other Somali disputes, the full absolute truth or 'haq' never lies with one party and the lack of fear of Allah is why they happen, your out of your mind if you think I would support injustice on a group of people.
@TekNiKo
Sxb it's best not to respond to them, it's an argument you can't win because it requires you to wrestle in the mud with them and bring yourself to their low standards, the moment you do this you loose the moral high ground and you are steered off course, it's very easy to fall into these traps and I am guilty of it myself in the past.
If you look at this thread not as single group was discussed but rather the London conference, the British colonialists plans and different strategies to cope, let's keep it on that topic and ignore the barking dogs whilst reporting them to the mods, as long as we do this, their plans won't work.
Mudug-Madman
Gaalkacyo Gangster
Lmao at you having anything that even resembles the moral high ground. You don't want to respond because you know everything I said was right.
waraabe
Your superior
You are a qabiilest tho sxb
TekNiKo
Loyal To The One True Caliph (Hafidahullah)
I agree back to the topic lets ignore these folks.
Its funny how all the money in what is basically New Deal 2.0 is probably not going to be sent straight to Somalia's central bank but as the author in the article mentioned to various nefarioua NGOs who sabotage local agricultural markets. Even security related funding will be channelled mostly through AMISOM sponsored EU training programs and not vital institutions like CID/Xalane, other Ministry of Defence departments.
We shall see as time reveals all whether Farmaajo can and will succeed in hopping over these hurdles.
Do you think the arms embargo shall be lifted? We have seen secessionist scream about it!
This is used by every single group in Somalia to milk the donors for aid, it's a clandestine scheme that has been used for decades, it has no track record of ever working anywhere in this world.
The problem is that there wasn't just inter qabiil wars but also internal sub-sub-clan conflicts all over Somalia, a whole new generation was born that make up 70% of the population whom never partook in any of this, much of the participants have mostly died with few leaders surviving.
You want to empower this generation whom have no knowledge of the parasite generation before, a reconciliation conference will do the opposite and hand the power back to a very small minority of whom are mostly dead and won't agree on anything.
There is no need for this both have standing armies, these simply get incorporated in a national army structure with a floating leadership much like the China model.
But this requires nationalistic leaders as well as justice the people can get behind, hence why you see the bulk of people from south to north support Farmaajo despite not being of the same clan.
This is useless endeavour for many reasons one of them I discussed above in regards to empowering the same parasite minority generation, your also assuming those same parasite groups would actually agree to something which they never have even amongst themselves.
The warlord prosecution which I support you will run into issues (either all or none) the properties you will run into an even more complex issues.
You will have for e.g. the looter (post civil-war), the booli qaran looter (kacaan gave it to them taken from others) whom is the claimant now and the native (whom the land was taken from, but has no documents as this didn't exist back then whom only has witnesses)
The post 90's dude that moved into the empty property would have sold the property off to a person whom invested in it after it was destroyed (through either civil war, Ethiopian war, Kacaan war) let's make the assumption you are the claimant here (land/property given to you by the Kacaan whom you bought it off) and I bought it off a post 90' dude that moved into that empty house people fled from whom presented me his assumed ownership documents he had ratified by a new administration and I bought it off him and made subsequent big investments thereafter through all the wars.
You present the Kacaan document, I present mine & investments, you argue mine is null and void and I do the same arguing the well known "booli qaran" thefts by the Kacaan, an Islamic court then needs to bring forth witnesses whom the Kacaan government acquired the land from (those people would be long dead and hence their family need to be sought) if these people are found you will argue it's null/void and I will argue that before the Kacaan your people didn't live in Xamar
Do you see the problems here? and the same will need to be applied outside of Mogadishu, people simply moved into empty houses and claimed it as theirs as the residence fled never to return, the same situation up and down the country, the Kacaan moved massive OG population in Isaaq territories which they were removed from after the civil war. (same booli qaran example will be cited in Xamar).
Do you see the pandora box you have just opened by this ? Just solving 1 case of this is so complex, takes so much time and money, it's not even worth going there and this it's best to leave these kind of Judgements to Allah in the hereafter, you gain far more then if you were wronged as opposed to if justice was given to you here.
The sad thing is that we could have had a constructive discussion if it wasn't for Inquisitve & Tekniko's qabiilist posts.
They can't even help themselves.
"Nationalistic" kulahaa. Spare us.
Imagine the shamelessness of it all, He calls Majerteen "bermuda triangle" and wants us to pretend that he is NOT a qabiilist. Shaydaanimo.
They can't even help themselves.
"Nationalistic" kulahaa. Spare us.
Imagine the shamelessness of it all, He calls Majerteen "bermuda triangle" and wants us to pretend that he is NOT a qabiilist. Shaydaanimo.
Kulahaa "Let's ignore these derailing folks from Puntland, How dare they respond to my INSULTS?".
"We can't have a discussion".
Rorschach
...
I see where it can get tricky with the returning of properties to their owners, and prosecuting the looters. But let's at least have reconciliation movement that tries to recognise the wrong-doings and move on from it - there doesn't have to be any repatriation.
The hanging of warlords can be done tomorrow.
Waa fahansanahay that reconciliation talks can be used as an excuse to halter our nation building e.g. Israel - PLO negotiations. But it's still an important item that sits on our collective consciousness. There is no such thing as Business as Usual after a Civil War - the odhayaal must congregate and hash it out.
Either we behave civilised and reconcile, or Allah will punish/reward us with perpetual chaos, or reward/punish us with a Farax Khan who will commit genocides to bind us all together with fear.
I say everyone develop their region in isolation, and pray for a Farax Khan.
This is how the British operate it's classic colonial tactics, they are using the Arms embargo being lifted as their 'carrot' stick in this negotiation, if they sign on to their plans they will simply lift it.
This is a very difficult position to be in and the governments argument is that they have no other alternatives and if they don't accept they will be at the mercy of Amisom/Ethiopia for the foreseeable future for security.
The choice here is simple which is the card the British are playing, either we keep Amisom/Ethiopia in your country or you accept stripping your central government authority by empowering federal states (so they can directly deal with them like the Kurdish model in Iraq, easier to control/divide with limited numbers)
This sounds like the lesser of the evils but the British will further milk this by getting you to renege on the new deal for development as a condition of this, currently Farmaajo government is refusing this and this is the sticking point at the moment, he needs to hold his nerve here.
The British are bluffing on this because they deep down rather deal with clan fiefdoms then Ethiopia/Kenya/Amisom which complicates the relationship because of these parties separate interests that don't sit well with their interests in Somalia, Farmaajo government should understand this and call out their bluff as a result by keeping the new deal in tact but accept their plan to have 18.000 troops that at least Amisom/Ethiopia could be sidelined which is the bigger evil, we will see what happens.
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